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| I don't like the look of this. |
The Avatar has been dumped by the evil Guardian on the alien world of Pagan. He has managed to outfit himself, but the only clue he has that might lead to a way home is to consult the hermit Mythran on the Plateau. The only thing stopping me from getting there is my tendency to stop and investigate everything along the way.
Hence, this entry opens with the Avatar in a cave whose entrance he has just finished clearing by painstakingly removing about 20 boards. It leads to a short dungeon with something that looks like a bedchamber, but the experience ends in a couple of locked doors. I return to the Valley.
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| As far as I can get in this cave. |
Elsewhere on this map, I find:
- A large torax ranch with multiple toraxes in stables and an adjacent field.
- A dilapidated house with a dead kith (a spider-like creature) and a copy of Devenoming the Kith.
- The house of Gwillim, the rancher I met last time. He's not in it, but I meet his wife, Corinth. She's proud of her son, Cyrrus, who has gone to study with the Theurgists to increase his natural talent for healing. Her second child, a girl, was devoured by a kith as a baby.
While I'm talking with Corinth, I notice that a lot of conversation options disappear if you don't click on them the first time. The weird thing is that they don't seem like mutually exclusive options. For instance, if I ask Corinth, "What do you do?," she tells me that she does a lot of things and that her son moved away. On the next screen, I can ask about "many things" or "your son?" Whichever I choose, the other disappears. Now this particular dialogue tree is repeatable, so that's not a problem, but I don't think they all are. It makes me wonder how many topics I missed with other NPCs.
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| A rare role-playing choice appears in dialogue with Corinth. |
I find none of the enemies who gave me trouble the last time I was here, including the kith and the troll. I also don't find an exit that will take me to the Plateau—at least not at first. It takes me a couple of circuits before I see a cave entrance that I missed the first time.
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| You see how it might be easy to miss. |
The cave leads me to a large underground lake. I have to jump from stone to stone to cross it. This is no trouble at all; I just click with both mouse buttons on the stone I want to end up on.
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| Action shot! |
I thought this would be a good place to try the unpatched version of the game, since I thought I could get here, running, without having to fight any enemies. Unfortunately, the Internet Archive—my only lead on a potential unpatched version—was down when I was playing this. I'm about to head off on a trip for a couple of weeks, and I don't know whether I'll have time to try again before this entry posts. Just in case, I watched a
video of a player attempting this puzzle with the original version. Wow. I get the problem. In the original version, clicking both mouse buttons does cause the Avatar to jump, but not to where the cursor is. Instead, he jumps a fixed distance, making it remarkably easy to overshoot the target or to fall short. Running jumps seem even harder to time. Watch that video. It's hilarious if you're not the one playing. It takes the player 18 minutes and about ten reloads to get across the lake. I did it in one minute on my first try.
On the other side, I face the occasional ghoul. There are a lot of corpses strewn about; many of them have potions. Sometimes, when you click on a corpse, a voice says something like, "Do not disturb my bones." I think this is random and not a sign that any particular pile of bones is taboo.
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| Which game had more random piles of skeletons? This or Ultima VII? |
Upon a plateau, I'm enticed by a glowing object under a skull, but it turns out to be a trap that damages me. On the other side of that is a puzzle involving two closed gates and a nearby inoperable lever. A bridge takes me to a crumbled building with seven levers and no indication which ones to push into which positions. ("There is no escape from this prison," the Guardian intones as I enter.) I try all of them and note that the winch against the far wall only turns when some of them are activated. I push all of those and the screen rumbles and shakes. Back across the bridge, the inoperable lever is now operable, and it raises the two gates. A short jog later, and I'm out of the dungeon and in an area that turns out to be the Plateau, although despite its name, it has stone walls rising on all sides of it. Maybe "Plateau" is meant ironically.
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| "Those kids seem to really love that Dungeon Master." - Someone at Origin. |
I follow my usual exploration plan of exploring the perimeter and then filling in the middle. I encounter:
- A bunch of "fire 'shrooms" that I can't pick up but that explode if I walk over them. A patch of them actually manages to kill me. They're surprisingly hard to avoid.
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| I don't remember which one is me. |
- A cave that I decide to save for later.
- It takes two reloads and almost all my health to kill a seeker. The problem is that his reach is longer than mine. He's guarding a shack with no valuables, but it's surrounded by mushrooms that I can eat to restore my health.
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| "Yes, Avatar. Eating mushrooms directly off the ground in a strange world is always a good idea." - The Guardian. |
Mythran's "house" is in the northeastern quadrant of the Plateau, not far from the cave exit. I put "house" in quotes, because the front door seems to transport me to a void, and the foyer is full of traps. Two spiked balls roll back and forth on either side of a pair of pillars. Lightning crackles between the pillars. I have to carefully time my passage through them. This basic setup is repeated for four consecutive rooms. The final room has a couple of healing potions on a table.
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| Passing through the gauntlet. |
The exit leads me to a two-story wooden house. The first floor has a backpack with 137 obsidian coins and something called Korghin's Fang.
I find Mythran upstairs. Our conversation is long, particularly since I reload a couple of times to make sure I go through all the options. Highlights:
- The house is indeed in another dimension, although he doesn't provide details.
- For 50 obsidian coins, he sells scrolls that open magical barriers.
- He tells me a lot about the history of Pagan, replicating what's in the game documents.
- He suggests I read the books in his house, of which there are many.
- He doesn't like Mordea or the Pyromancers.
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| "Or it would be a tragedy, if the city had more than six people." |
- He practices Thaumaturgy, a fifth form of magic that is not tied to one of the elemental titans.
Most importantly, when I ask about leaving Pagan, he says that something about the titans' magic blocks travel to other worlds. He thinks the solution is to become a master of all forms of magic. He suggests I start with the Necromancers by asking Vividos to be his apprentice. They live in the cemetery.
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| Mythran has his own private fishing hole in his little pocket plane. |
His house has a lot of books that bulk up my "Books of Pagan" entry. My intelligence increases by 2 points from reading them all. While I'm reading, I get a rumble from the Guardian that "Nyustl sends his regards."
Mythran also gives me a "recall item." When I double-click on it, I can choose to visit any teleportation platform that I've already visited, which in this case is the one in Mythran's house and the one on the roof of the palace. That's handy. I warp back there.
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| Does someone sit in that chair just waiting for people to teleport in? |
On the way to the Cemetery, on the east side of Tenebrae, I find a house unlocked that was locked before. It turns out to be the residence of Rhian, widow of Toran, the man beheaded at the beginning of the game. She says he expressed his opinions one too many times in the tavern. Their son, Torwin, has gone off to be a Theurgist, something that confuses Rhian because he never expressed any interest in becoming a healer when he was growing up. Toran was a gemcutter, and Rhian is now running his shop. She sells both clothing (her own trade is as a weaver) and gems. I don't buy either for now.
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| I might stop by to sell you a dozen pieces of jewelry tomorrow. |
The house is enormous; I guess gemcutting is lucrative. The loom in Rhian's workshop moves up and down if I double-click on it, but there's no way to feed yarn into it the way you could in Ultima VII.
I leave Rhian and head for the cemetery. "I do so enjoy the cries of torment," the Guardian gloats as I pass through the gate. As usual, I explore the edges and then the interior. Encounters:
- There are lots of battles with ghouls and skeletons. I thought my mace was killing skeletons before, but now they're getting up. The toss-them-in-the-water trick doesn't seem to work for me. But running off the screen solves the problem.
- I take note of all the gravestones and report their inscriptions on the "Books of Pagan" entry. It's cute that they made references to most of the developers, but I think that gravestones are an excellent epistolary way to convey lore, and I wish more games took them seriously. There are only a few in-game references in the long list.
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| One of many football references in the cemetery. |
- A specter guarding a north exit kills me. I reload, but he keeps killing me before I can kill him. I leave it for now. Another one keeps killing me in front of a grave that reads: "Get off my grave." Curiously, many of my blows against these ghosts trigger the thunderclap, but they don't die. Yet I killed a ghost with the same mace the last session. I'm wondering if I'm mixing up ghosts and aerial servants; the manual doesn't supply an image of the latter.
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| A specter seems invincible as a zombie rises from the ground nearby. |
In the center of the area is a two-story structure that turns out to be the Tomb of Moriens, the first Necromancer, who arranged the deal with Lithos by which the titan would stop the earthquakes if the people of Pagan would serve him in death. The first floor has an altar in the central area and what looks like a stone chair behind an unopenable gate.
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| That looks uncomfortable. |
The second floor has living quarters. The head necromancer, Lothian, is sick in bed. Her assistant, Vividos, is wandering around. (I'm pretty sure Vividos never tells me his name. It doesn't come up in my initial conversations, but when I speak to him again, I somehow already know it.) Vividos tells me that Lothian is dying. Vividos wants to perform the ritual (rituals are very important to the necromancers) that will let Lothian transition to the afterlife, but the "evil and power hungry" Mordea has confiscated the necromancers' ceremonial dagger and will only lend it back to them if they beg. If Lothian dies without the ritual, Lithos might destroy the world in his anger.
I offer to retrieve the dagger; it's clear I'll have to solve this issue if I want to learn necromancy. I teleport back to the palace and find Mordea in her throne room. She's shouting things every few seconds: "Feed them all to the lurker!"; "More work, less pay!"; "Flog the peasants!"; "Double the taxes!"; "No more days of rest!" Her seneschal responds to each rant with "pure genius!" or "you are correct!"
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| I'm guessing there's no romance option here. |
I find the key to her bedchamber under a folded piece of cloth with a skull on it, but Mordea gets upset that I'm moving things around. I have to rest for a while for the throne room to clear out. I toss her bedroom and find a dagger in her wardrobe, but it doesn't look like what Vividos described. There is a locked closet with a chest in it, but I can't find the key to open it.
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| This seems too easy. |
Remembering Aramina's (Mordea's handmaiden) offer to speak to me at her home during BloodWatch, I wait until the appropriate hour and then visit. She gives me the key to the closet as long as I promise not to tell anyone that I got it from her.
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| Unless there's more than one, they'll probably be able to figure it out. |
I return to Mordea's chambers, but I'm stupid enough to barge in while she's in bed. She wakes up and destroys me with a fireball.
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| That's the best you could come up with? |
On a reload, I wait until Mordea is in her throne room, then openly enter her bedroom, shut the door behind me, open her closet, and steal the dagger from the chest. A lot of what I'm doing relies on Tenebrae having no investigators, just patrol officers.
Back at the Tomb of Moriens, I find that Lothian is breathing her last. Vividos has laid her body on the first-floor altar. He gratefully takes the dagger and instructs the Avatar how to help with the ritual that will send Lothian's soul to Lithos. Lothian says he's ready to go. The ground shakes. Vividos incants a spell, and three zombies rise. Vividos plunges the dagger into Lothian's chest. (This is all handled without the player's input, but it's still a fun sequence. It might be worth watching online. I mean to capture a GIF, but I fail.) He later explains that he has completed the Ceremony of Eternity, which will allow Lothian passage into Lithos's halls. I expect that the zombies will somehow carry Lothian away, but they just sort of hang out.
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| What role do the zombies serve? |
Vividos explains that with Lothian's death, he is now the Necromancer. Moreover, he has no apprentices. I volunteer for the role, and he says my first task will be to gather reagents: Executioner's Hood "from a place of danger," and "fallen sticks from a place where the spirits roam." I already have the first, but to find the second, I'll have to go to Western Tenebrae. This seems like a good place to wrap up.
Miscellaneous notes:
- Some experimentation suggests that the Avatar can indeed climb up onto any roof. I feel like I need to explore the entire town again now that I have a better sense of a) how to climb and jump, and b) how to search for keys by moving things around.
- Drinking potions leaves empty bottles behind. Are they good for anything? I'd love an excuse to clear out the damned backpack.
- I contributed a few more books to "The Books of Pagan." One, called Earthen Magic, gives the reagents and syllables for two necromancy spells: "Open Ground" and "Death Speak." A scroll in Lothian's room gives the recipe for "Quake."
- The dialogue options too often just repeat the last thing the NPC said with a question mark.
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| Don't let the door hit me in the ass? |
I end this session with my attributes in the mid-20s, about halfway between the starting values (15) and the maximum values (30). [Edit: I guess maybe maximum values are 25.] Apparently, if I wanted to stand still and swing away with my sword, or to open and read the same book over and over, I could grind them all the way to the maximum before continuing on.
As I wrap up, it occurs to me that Pagan feels a bit like a simple console RPG of the period, with its limited NPCs, limited character development, rather linear plot, and simple action combat. There's nothing that makes me feel like I'm role-playing or otherwise playing in a unique or personal way. I feel as if I could get the same experience, and have about as much fun, just watching a video of someone else playing. Maybe I should watch a speedrun. I think I'd short-cut this one if I could.
Time so far: 14 hours
****
09/08/2026
The jumping puzzles in Ultima 8 are quite easy as far as jumping puzzles are concerned; their biggest disadvantage is the ease with which your character dies, and (I presume, originally) the time it took to restore. However, this can be said about U8 in general, because it has ample opportunities for relatively easy deaths even in seemingly safe spaces.
ReplyDeleteI bought the game when it was first released, and before Origin had published the patch that simplified the jumping mechanics (and that fixed a number of other bugs and plot holes). I remember giving up in frustration when I got to the next jumping puzzle after the one described in this blog post. ("Oh, not AGAIN!" I remember thinking.) Fortunately, the patch was released within a few weeks and quickly spread everywhere through dial-up BBSes. I installed it and managed to complete the game.
DeleteAfterwards, a friend of mine asked to borrow my copy of the game so that he could play. I gave him the full box and included a disk with a copy of the patch, and made sure to impress upon him the importance of applying it before playing.
A few months later he returned the game to me, reporting that he had won, but had found it extraordinarily difficult. I asked if he had installed the patch, and he said he opted not to. I was completely flabbergasted that anyone could have managed to complete the unpatched version with their sanity intact. He explained that actually didn't mind the challenge as he was unemployed and had nothing better to do.
"Fortunately, the patch was released within a few weeks and quickly spread everywhere through dial-up BBSes."
DeleteThat is really not correct, unless we use a very generous definition of "few weeks'. The game was released on March 1994, the patch on January 1995. According to Jimmy Maher's coverage of the game it was at the sole initiative of the main programmer, that created the bulk of the patch over the Thanksgiving of 1994, otherwise Origin would have likely done nothing.
Also in 1995 you couldn't really count on most people having access to modems and BBS. By the time the patch was released, I was long done with the game, and I really heard about the patch some 20 years later.
And @RandomGamer there is really no comparison between the prepatch and patched version jumping. Nobody would ever define the prepatch jumping as easy, they would mostly use expletives.
@Vince My comment indicates that I first played the game back when it was available only in its original form (i.e., some time in the last three quarters of 1994). The patch became available within a few weeks of my quitting in frustration, not within a few weeks of the game's original release date.
DeleteAnd yes, the patch did indeed spread very fast through BBSes and FTP sites. I'm reasonably sure that I got a copy within a few days of it coming out. Certainly not every gamer was online back then, but millions of us were. Remember that this was the heyday of international, text-based discussion networks like Usenet and FidoNet, with several gigabytes of unique messages being posted every day.
Now that you have reached Mythran I wanted to comment on Thaumaturgy and specifically give you a warning about a bug (or inconsistency) with the game mechanics that might make you give up too early on it. I hope this is all still accurate, it has been so long since I played the game, and I could not tell you about what patch this was on. But it is also on the Wiki, so I supposed it is still there.
ReplyDeleteI will also write a little about how it works in general, but this is just for context as it is also in the manual.
Thaumaturgy works by purchasing spell books (one per spell) from Mythran, who is willing to sell you more as you progress through the game. Thaumaturgy uses a mix of reagents from the other reagent-based magic disciplines (Necromancy and Sorcery) and some unique Thaumaturgy reagents. Those unique reagents are only sold by Mythran and cost a fair bit of coins. This is probably how he affords his weird house.
Anyway, to use Thaumaturgy you read the book while you possess the required reagents. The book is then charged and glows yellow and you can read it again to cast the spells. And here is where we have the inconsistency: with the very first spell you get (Confusion) you can cast the spell once, the book discharges and you must redo the process. The reagents are pricy enough that you really do not want to do that again.
But all subsequent books stay charged after using the spell, so you only have to do the charging process once. That makes them much more viable. So do not give up on Thaumaturgy because of a bad experience with the Confusion spell. It is not really known if this is a bug with Confusion or the other spells, i.e., how Thaumaturgy is even supposed to work like.
Now in ROT13 some comments on the individual Thaumaturgy spells – only light spoilers and nothing regarding at all the story, so feel free to read or not whenever.
Pbashfvba Oynfg: hfryrff, jbhyq or rira vs vg qvq abg unir gur erpunetr vffhr.
Zrgrbe Fubjre: fbzrjung hfrshy, fvapr vg qbrf n ovg bs qnzntr naq vf fcnzznoyr.
Fhzzba Perngher: hfryrff sbe svtugvat onggyrf (ubarfgyl va Hygvzn 8 lbh fubhyq whfg eha cnfg zbfg zbafgref, naq vs lbh ernyyl jnag gb svtug gurer ner orggre bcgvbaf), ubjrire, V erzrzore gung ng yrnfg fbzr bs gur fhzzbarq perngherf qebc pbvaf vs lbh xvyy gurz. Fb, vg vf n hfrshy zbarl znxre.
Pnyy Qrfgehpgvba: guvf vf ol sne gur orfg pbzong fcryy va gur ragver tnzr; vg vf abg rira pybfr. Rirel rarzl va fvtug vf uvg ol yvtugavat juvpu qrnyf tbbq qnzntr naq vg vf fcnzznoyr ol ubj snfg lbh pna pyvpx gur obbx. Rirelguvat nebhaq lbh jvyy whfg qvr. Ntnva, fhcre birecbjrerq. Ubjrire, vs lbh fcnz vg gbb snfg vg pna pnhfr n tyvgpu jurer sentzragf bs gur yvtugavat tencuvpf fgnl va gur jbeyq vaqrsvavgryl. Nf sne nf V pbhyq gryy guvf qbrf abg unir nal qbjafvqrf (rkprcg ybbxvat jrveq), ohg V unir abg gevrq gb ercrng gur cebprff gb frr ng juvpu cbvag gur tnzr zvtug unir gebhoyr.
Qrinfgngvba: guvf vf Nezntrqqba sebz gur cerivbhf tnzrf, ohg n cbbe irefvba nf lbh qb abg trg gb geniry gur abj qrnq jbeyq nf orsber.
Odd that they fixed numerous bugs in Pagan but not this one. Unless the joke is that casting the confusion spell confuses the Avatar into forgetting it.
DeleteBy the way, Pagan stats only do to 25 if I remember correctly.
ReplyDeleteObnoxious. What is even the point of trainers?
DeleteI checked out the video link. I was surprised to see that there's never any visible health bar and no indication of how many hit points you're losing each time you get hit. What makes this inexcusable is that Hydlide had an on-screen health bar nine years earlier!
ReplyDeleteAlso, even if the platforming in this game didn't suck, there's still the problem that the game has no platforming at all for the first 11 hours, then ALL OF A SUDDEN you have to do precision platforming even though you don't even know how platforming works in this game yet. Meanwhile actual platformers like Super Mario Brothers would start out with an easy level so you can get the hang of the controls, THEN become gradually more challenging.
It seems like Ultima 8 is the result of a bunch of people, who have no idea how to make an action-adventure game, making an action-adventure game.
You can get a visible health bar - if you click in the health bar next to your gear paperdoll, an small bar will appear all the time.
DeleteVery weird it's not active by default though.
Given how obsessed Lord British was with immersing players in the world of Britannia I have no doubt the lack of visible [anything] was an extremely deliberate design choice. It all started when the "your hands are the left mouse button and your feet are the right mouse button!!!" hype for Ultima VII hit, and he decided that was not parsimonious enough yet and could do even worse. Err better
DeleteIt does feel like it's a 3D action adventure game at heart, but there were not many of those around in 1994.
DeleteLittle Big Adventure? Alone in the Dark? They were all still figuring things out.
Curiously, some designers from Pagan later worked on Deus Ex and Thief.
(no idea if comments are working again, but here goes!)
DeleteIt is interesting that we had most Ultima games with a very clear information about all your characters health, numerically and on screen all the time, to the big shift from Ultima VII and onwards.
With Pagan we also get a big shift with the way that death works, in prior games you could usually feel like death was relatively consequence free, waking up in Lord British's castle or similar. This time, you have to reload a save game, and may have lost progress.
It's quite a big change and an odd combination to have a more "immersive" hidden user interface, and also to have death come so easily and so permanently.
Death was consequence-free in only half of the prior games in the main series. For Ultimas I through III, having your character/party die was also a permanent thing, necessitating a reload.
DeleteThe no health bar thing is already in Ultima 7, right? So it's not exactly new here.
DeleteI think it's perfectly sensible to ommit the health bar to create a more immersive experience. You just have to add an immersive, in-world way to at least get a rough idea of your current health.
Gothic was designed the same way, but they added some HUD elements late when the immersive elements turned out not to work that well during playtesting. You can still see it in some parts, e.g. your character looks stronger as your strength increases.
"I think it's perfectly sensible to omit the health bar to create a more immersive experience." I do, too. That's one of the things I enjoy about U7 and U8. I enjoyed U7 marginally more because ESC dismisses active windows instead of requiring you to double-click on them.
DeleteLong time lurker here. I never thought about Pagan as a kind of console RPG, but I think your comment make sense when comparing the game to its predecessors. However, if you consider it on its own merits, the engine still allows a level of interaction with the environment unlike any contemporary console RPG I can think of. Admittedly, it is a bit of an odd game, to me it felt more like a graphical adventure: the plot is on rails, the challenge is mainly to figure out where to go next and what you need to do to get there. Since exploring brings limited rewards and you already got the Slayer, if you want to cut the game short, it's enough to follow the main quest without wandering too much around.
ReplyDeleteA small confession: I played all Ultimas VI to IX, Pagan was the only one that I played until the end (pre-patch, the video you saw might as well have been me if I had bothered to record myself!), so I am a bit partial to the game notwithstanding its flaws. It probably won't do well in the GIMLET, but try not to be too much influenced by your expectations about what a "Ultima" game should be. Looking forward to the next entries, it's always a pleasure to read them!
You can actually sneak in Mordea's bedchamber while she's sleeping. I got the dagger that way. The movement is mouse sensitive, if you click or hold the cursor near the Avatar he will make small steps only. She will only wake up if you walk loudly or go to near to the bed.
ReplyDeleteI started a replay of Pagan after your first posts and if it's any comfort: this game is very short.
In fact, you are pretty much in the beginning of Act II now, if act I is the introduction to Tenebrae and meeting all the characters, gura Npg VV vf gur Arpebznapref, trggvat gur Fpvba xrl, haybpxvat nyy gur cnffntrf, svavfuvat gur cvytevzntr naq gura Npg VVV jbhyq or qrnyvat jvgu Ulqen, gur Fbepreref naq gur svany fubjqbja.
Others may disagree with my chaptering , but the key takeaway is this: it's not that long and there's some possible non-linearity in the middle.
Sbe rknzcyr, bapr lbh trg gur Fpvba lbh pna tb fgenvtug gb gur Gurhetvfgf, rkcyber nyy gur bcgvbany qhatrbaf, rgp. Lbh qba'g unir gb qb gur cvytevzntr vzzrqvngryl.
For me personally, I find some of the moments in this game quite impressive. Sbe zr, gur Fbepreref frpgvba vf nofbyhgryl njrfbzr.
Joshua, I’ve deleted your follow up comment, which was full of spoilers. You’ve kind of ruined the plot for me now. I didn’t think everybody else needed to have it ruined, too. Please be more circumspect in the future.
DeleteI apologize, but I disagree with this being spoilers. My text merely summarised and interpreted the books that are in the library and Mythran's place. If you allow me, I could just edit my original answer to Quidfecist slightly. But all this is just lore.
DeleteI find the operative question to be if you already knew the "true" answers or were merely trying to speculate. I think the latter is fine, but it's almost impossible to know the former and hide it, even if you're trying to limit yourself to information Chester has already seen, because you can - even accidentally - meld the presentation of those known facts to fit the final, canon narrative.
DeleteWell, I didn't talk about any future plot points. I've thus far operated under the assumption that anything future-related counts as a spoiler, and as you can see from my post above, I used ROT13 even for the bit about future gameplay. In my head, I was responding to someone who I assumed probably wasn't going to play the game, so I was basically in “explain the backstory” mode. It didn't cross my mind that already available lore, if it hadn't been fully synthesized yet, could count as a spoiler.
DeleteIn any case, I think the lore in this game is more like Morrowind than, I don't know, Planescape: Torment. It's there and it can deepen your imagination of the world, but you can also mostly ignore it.
Joshua, I appreciate your follow-up and your message. I don't feel like the game has given me enough information to make the same interpretation, so I assumed it was informed by other things that happen later in the game. Sorry for the misunderstanding; feel free to repost.
DeleteSo if the people all go to serve Lithos after they die, does that mean Lithos is the one responsible for all the undead monsters you're running into?
ReplyDeleteYou can check the post about "The Books of Pagan" for your answer. It's there. :)
DeleteI find the lore to be one of the more interesting and compelling parts of the game. It tickles that part of my brain.
DeleteTitans, while destructive in nature, are not all destructive in the same way. Some, like Lithos, have come to an agreement with people: they worship him and sacrifice dead bodies to him and he in return tries not to kill them all with earthquakes and zombie apocalypses.
But it's not all one-sided submission. There's a story about Kalen the Necromancer, who for some reason, really tried to kill Hydros (Ulqebf xvyyrq uvf tveysevraq naq gura zbpxrq uvf tevrs) and he was almost successful... until Hydros offered him a deal in exchange for sparing her life that he decided to accept. This, for me, makes the setting much more interesting than just helpless people being oppressed by "evil demons".
It's a cruel world, but somehow the people and the Titans have made it work. They've built a life together based on mutual abuse and coercion. Life will always find a way, as Jeff Goldblum said. A society where power has replaced care.
Another interesting question is what exactly are the Titans? This is just my personal interpretation (and this time definitely spoiler-ish). We know that they were manipulated into existence by the schemes of the Guardian, jub hfrq n crbcyr gung nyernql unq n uvfgbel bs znavsrfgvat gurve vaare cflpuvp raretvrf vagb qrvgvrf. Gur Thneqvna xarj gung gur byq eryvtvba jbhyq ernpg irel ivbyragyl naq pehryyl ntnvafg uvf arj Gvgnavp phyg. Gung jnf cneg bs gur cyna. Gubfr ngebpvgvrf, gur srne, gur genhzn, gur natre, gur qrfver sbe eriratr gung uvf phyg rkcrevraprq ng gur unaqf bs gur byq eryvtvba: nyy bs guvf znavsrfgrq nf gur Gvgnaf. Naq znlor gung'f jul gurl ner fb qrfgehpgvir.
Gur pehrygl bs Cntna vf flfgrzvp, ohg hygvzngryl, vg'f gur crbcyr gurzfryirf gung unir perngrq guvf pehrygl gung bccerffrf gurz, gubhtu havagragvbanyyl. Vg'f gurve bja vaare qrzbaf orpbzvat rkgreany qrzbaf, orpnhfr gurl npghnyyl unir gur cbjre gb pbyyrpgviryl znavsrfg gurve vaare cflpuvp raretvrf vagb ernyvgl.
Creuncf jr pna fnl gung gur Thneqvna qbrfa'g perngr, ohg whfg gjvfgf fbzrguvat gung vf nyernql gurer. Ur svaqf n zrgnculfvpny flfgrz, yrneaf vgf ehyrf naq gheaf vg hcfvqr qbja, hfvat vgf bja ehyrf ntnvafg vg.
Naq creuncf, nf n frevbhf pevgvdhr bs gur cybg, jr pbhyq fnl gung Hygvzn 8 jbhyq unir orra n zhpu zber qenzngvpnyyl pbzcryyvat tnzr vs gur Ningne pbhyq npghnyyl gel gb vagebqhpr fbzr pbzcnffvba vagb guvf jbeyq, engure guna fvzcyl npprcgvat gur chefhvg bs cbjre gung guvf frggvat pbzzhavpngrf gb uvz.
Maybe. I mean, we have no reason to assume gur byq eryvtvba jnf rivy naq ivbyrag. Gur onpxfgbel fhttrfgf gung vg'f abg; vg unf tbqf bs ybir naq ybtvp, sbe fgnegref. Vg frrzf gur jne jnf ernyyl fgnegrq ol gur gvgnaf, jub jrer ivbyrag sebz gur ortvaavat; naq gurve jne onfvpnyyl qrfgeblrq gur jbeyq.
Delete"Mrnynaf ner rivy" vf n fgebatre pynvz guna V znqr. :) Lbh qba'g unir gb or ivbyrag ol angher, gb orpbzr ivbyrag, orpnhfr lbh srry lbhe vqragvgl, lbhe jnl bs yvsr, lbhe pvivyvmngvba vf haqre guerng. Naq gurer'f n fgbel nobhg gur sngure, jub guerj uvf qnhtugre vagb gur ibypnab, engure guna unir ure or encrq gb qrngu ol Mrnynaf gung vzcyvrf jr fubhyq ernq gur jne nf ernyyl univat ab tbbq thlf if onq thlf.
DeleteGur jnl V haqrefgnaq vg, naq gurer ner n srj yvarf gung Zlguena fnlf gung znxr zr guvax gung jnl: gur pvivy jne unccrarq orsber gur Gvgnaf, ohg vg nyfb jnf jung gur Thneqvna vagraqrq gb unccra, orpnhfr bs gur fgebat qrfgehpgvir cflpuvp raretl vg pnhfrq, nf gurer frrzf gb or fbzr fbeg bs n zrgnculfvpny ynj va guvf jbeyq gung fgebat srryvatf orpbzr ragvgvrf. Gur jbeyq bs Cntna unf n glcr bs cflpub-zrgnculfvpny srrqonpx flfgrz. Va guvf vagrecergngvba, gur Thneqvna whfg uvwnpxrq gur zrpunavfz. Ur chg gur vqrn vagb crbcyr'f vzntvangvba, juvpu gurl yngre ovegurq nf gur Gvgnaf. Jung Zlguena fnlf nobhg byq tbqf nyfb frrzf gb fhttrfg gung: gurl jrer srryvatf svefg, orsber gurl jrer "tbqf".
"I feel as if I could get the same experience, and have about as much fun, just watching a video of someone else playing. Maybe I should watch a speedrun. I think I'd short-cut this one if I could."
ReplyDeleteThat would break my heart.
I don't even want to claim that the game peaks later; there are some high points later in the game but it never gets consistantly better than that...
... but I still liked it.
I don't like to say Chet "has" to do this or that, it's his blog and we're just lucky to have it.
DeleteBut he HAS to finish Ultima 8 and 9 to at least feel our pain as the series went down the tubes. And while they might not be good, they're not nearly as miserable as U7 part two!
Ultima 8 has the best magic system I've ever played in a video game. If the Gimlet category was "puzzles and magic", I am sure it would get a 9 out of 10.
DeleteI only ever played Ultima 9 with the fan-made bug-fix patch, setup utility, and dialogue patch, and I had a good experience.
I had way more fun with U7 part 2. It was more of an RPG and less Action Adventure than this rough break with the Ultima tradition. I absolutely feel with that last paragraph.
DeleteWow, that's quite a superlative. I look forward to casting my first spell.
DeleteB, I'm tempted to reply that I don't HAVE to do anything except pay taxes and die. But I also agree that I have to finish U8 and U9. It has not crossed my mind to quit, just to rush it a bit.
DeleteI agree with Abacos - decades after playing U8, every time I saw a new magic system, I would be reminded of U8 and think "man, the U8 magic system was so great" - too bad it was not used anywhere else.
DeleteEven more than the system itself, I loved the lore and how the different magics all have totally different systems. Ah, you'll see.
Honestly, the spell system was one of my least favorite parts of Ultima VIII. What I really loved about Ultima VII was exploring the land and talking to the citizens. That's basically non-existent in Ultima VIII.
DeleteHopefully not too spoilery, but I get tired spending 5 minutes trying to perfectly align reagents every time I want to prepare a fire spell.
Re: aligning reagents, hmm.
Delete(...arne?) cvkry-cresrpg bowrpg cynprzrag ntnvafg n svkrq crefcrpgvir pnzren vf oehgny sbe zvkvat clebznapl fcryyf, hasbetvivat naq bu fb sevpxva svavpxl, juvpu vf hasbeghangr. Jbaqre ubj vg jbhyq srry jvgu n cngpu gnxvat n fvzvyne nccebnpu gb gur gnetrgvat whzcvat flfgrz, whfg sbe gnetrgvat erntragf ng gur pbeerpg ybpngvbaf. Inf Beg Ery Glz Inf Na Beg Nvyrz be fbzrguvat, V thrff.
The patch did make some changes to the reagent alignment and gives more feedback, as well. It could have been a little more forgiving.
DeleteThe fun part of Pagan are precisely the various magic systems - both their mechanics and their capabilities.
ReplyDeleteNote the parallel: in Ultima 6, you have to learn all the gargoyle virtues. In Serpent Isle, you have to learn all the ophidian virtues. And now in Pagan, you have to learn all the paganese virtues. Well, magics really, but "proper burial rites" is at least virtue-adjacent.
ReplyDeleteAnd the first "lead" you talk to outlines exactly what you need to do to complete the game. I'm not sure if that's refreshing or underwhelming, unless there's a plot twist later. Gurer vf abg ernyyl n cybg gjvfg rkprcg gung lbh jvyy arrq gb xvyy gur sbhe gvgnaf nsgre yrneavat gurve zntvp.
That you found "no indication which ones to push into which positions" in the lever puzzle is understandable given your previous comment about the overabundance of skeletons in the game. (I made exactly the same oversight myself when I first played the game.) As I recall, for this particular lever puzzle, the skeletons next to the levers show what happened to whoever was unlucky enough to try moving them, from which you can infer which levers are safe to operate.
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah. Skeletons are so ubiquitous that it didn't even occur to me that they might be hinting at a solution.
DeleteSome random comments:
ReplyDeleteThe warrior skeletons will stay down if you don't get too close.
If there's a thunderclap while attacking a ghost, it might be that you're hitting those flying skulls (and not the ghost itself).
You said there was a seeker guarding "a shack with no valuables." I don't know if the following image matched that text, but there is a chest in the lower right corner of that structure. This game is loaded with levers, keys, and whatnot hidden underneath or partially behind other stuff.
Regarding thaumaturgy: lbh qba'g arrq vg ng nyy.
"This game is loaded with levers, keys, and whatnot hidden underneath or partially behind other stuff." All right, thanks. I'll try to get into the habit of moving more stuff.
DeleteWould be kind of funny if all those mushrooms you've been scarfing down to start alive turned out to be vital spell ingredients.
ReplyDeleteSince you mentioned wanting to see a speedrun, here's one that does it in about 20 minutes, albeit with glitches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPtxh6j5YU8
ReplyDeleteI saw the word "glitch" in the description and bowed out. I prefer speedruns that still do all the steps in the game. They give me confidence that I could wrap it up in a short time if I really tried. Knowing that I have to cheat to get that time doesn't really give me the same confidence.
DeleteAgree 100%. That's why the Morrowind speedrun using the Scrolls of Icarian Flight is the greatest speedrun ever.
DeleteFair point. This non-glitched speedrun takes slightly over an hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km1ezoQSbrY
DeleteI don’t want to disagree with how Ultima 8 feels to you, but some things you have done would not be possible in a contemporary console RPG, at least not in combination as general systems:
ReplyDelete- You noticed a chest in a guard tower and found a way in by climbing onto the bridge and entering from above. Places can have "natural" alternative routes without each one being programmed as special cases.
- You opened a cave and found a hole leading to a dungeon by removing debris piece by piece.
- You're searching furniture and sometimes find objects hidden beneath clothes.
- You stole Mordea's dagger by waiting until she left her bedroom. Joshua mentioned that you can instead sneak in while she is sleeping, as long as you tiptoe.
The plot may be linear, but there's some creativity involved in solving problems. I think you could say that U8 had the beginnings of an isometric immersive sim. With better controls and more quests designed around these possibilities, it could have gone much further in that direction.
These are all good points.
DeleteWell, I disagree with you - all these hidden objects/paths were the hallmark of Castlevania series, which come pretty close as far as the general idea goes. If anything, things like these were pretty easy to implement on system with severely restricted ability to save world states, and having hidden path to things was something that didn't really interfere.
DeleteU8 really does feel like an attempt to independently make console-like action-RPG; problem is, Origin's design team was nowhere near as good at trying to do it as competition, and they sacrificed some of their core competencies when they set up to design a game like this. It really feels a lot like one of those games which were pumped around "Let's design a fighter game, how hard can it be?" delusion.
Natural alternative routes without being programmed, that's very common in platform games and metroidvanias. Also those on console.
DeleteU8 does have the sandboxy mechanics that U6 and U7 and Underworld also have, so you can call all of those the beginnings of an immersive sim. It's just that U8 has LESS of these mechanics than 6/7/UU do.
Every time I see this game’s graphics, all I can think of is Habbo Hotel. This game looks, visually, a lot better, though
ReplyDelete