Yes, as you can detect, we're not alternating between "new" games and "old" games for a while. It's time to get 1993 done. I'm going to be announcing a change in protocol starting with 1994, and I really just want to get there. As such, I prematurely sent Breach (1987) back to the bench after the DOS version gave me a bit of trouble.
As usual, please do not post spoilers. This discussion is to offer:
- Opinions about the game's RPG status. While applying your own definitions to such a discussion is fine, what really helps is if you apply mine. The FAQ (7th question) covers my definition.
- Tips for emulating the game
- Known bugs and pitfalls
- Tips for character creation
- Trivia
- Sources of information about the game from around the web, particularly obscure ones that I might otherwise miss during my pre-game research.
These are the next seven games (after listing six, there was only 1 left for 1993):
- Castle of the Winds (1993, SaadaSoft, Windows). A graphical roguelike that I've already started playing. I have no idea if it's in the right year, though. I need to research more about its version history.
- Magische Steine (1993, Independent, C64). Looks like a standard Ultima clone, but these can sometimes be quite good.
- Computer Underground (1993, Haxoft, DOS). An interesting-sounding game in which you play a hacker and you try to hack various systems and fight other hackers. It seems to have attributes, levels, and an inventory.
- Ishar II (1993, Silmarils, DOS). The sequel to a game I covered five years ago, this might be the last "AAA" game of 1993. I enjoyed the predecessor and look forward to the sequel.
- Daemonsgate: Volume One - Donovan's Key (1993, Imagitec, DOS). I have no idea what to expect from this British RPG, but the fact that there's no Volume Two isn't promising.
- Excelsior, Phase One: Lysandia: (1993, 11th Dimension, DOS). Another Ultima-style game, but it does have a 2000 sequel.
- Daymare 2 (1993, Jing Gameware, DOS). A sequel to The Mystic Well (dubbed Daymare for its DOS release), this should be a Dungeon Master-style dungeon crawler.
At this point, we should be done with 1993, and I can lay out plans going forward.
I played the Castle of the Winds demo as a kid, and then all the way through as an adult. Can't remember the exact details but I'm pretty sure it's an RPG. It was really fun using weird .ico files for my player.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed Castle of the Winds as a kid. Recently I played it again and it’s still fun!
ReplyDeleteCastle of the Winds! That is in fact a Windows 16-bit game, not a DOS game. I remember years ago being delighted to discover that while it would not work on windows 7, it ran just fine emulated in WINE on Linux. That was when I was teaching myself how to use linux computers.
ReplyDeleteRick Saada released the entire game for free on his personal website with a bit of history, but it looks like that is no longer up. Fortunately, it's archived on the wayback machine.
Let's see if Blogger eats the link.
Deletehttps://web.archive.org/web/20080730221842/http://www.exmsft.com/~ricks/
Man, I miss the web 1.0 era of personal websites, this whole thing is just a delightful trip through a different time.
I played the shareware version on my old Win3.1 rig as a kid. I loved it and it was pretty much my introduction to CRPGS, as before that I had only played SNES and Gameboy JRPGs. I've been reading the blog ever since the Game Informer interview and I'm stoked to finally be getting to my Era of games.
DeleteCastle of the Winds was quite literally the first 'real' game I ever played. My dad had downloaded the shareware version from a BBS on a lark. I remember the first floor having a spot you need to move diagonally to get through, and it took me around a week of goofing around confused before a flash of insight inspired me to use the number pad rather than the arrow keys.
DeleteIt proved formative, to say the least.
Ditto on Web 1.O for sure... Much less capable but so much fun on the early web!
DeleteI'll copy my comments about Ishar 2 I wrote back in 2020 under your entries for Ishar 1. Also, DOSBox cycles should be set to about 24000. Any higher and sound\music tend to glitch out.
ReplyDeleteA bit of advice for Ishar 2. While it has the function for importing the party from the first game, it is not very worthwhile thing to do, to say the least. The main reasons are:
1. It makes no sense plot-wise.
2. It breaks the balance, at least for the first half of the game.
3. Importing is very bugged. You're likely to end up with the spellcasters who don't know a single spell and generally broken characters.
There is another problem with Ishar 2 and, probably, 3. You can save everywhere and it doesn't cost anything. But restoring the game resets the enemies in the area. So saving in a middle of dungeon is not just useless, but actually harmful. Upon reloading you'll find all the monsters you slain alive again, but your party in a worse shape compared the moment then you entered the dungeon and being blocked from the exit. Same largely applies to saving in the city.
Warm tear!
ReplyDeleteI don't think Magische Steine fulfills your RPG definition - I'll also copy part of my comment here back when it was suggested:
It's maybe worth mentioning that the last, 'Magische Steine', a diskmag game written by a 15 year old, is already quite extensely documented (in German) on https://www.c64-wiki.de/wiki/Magische_Steine.
Based on that coverage, it fails element 3 of your CRPG definition (PC only gains max. HP [ed.: the definition was different back then, but this is still element 3 now ;-)]). You could probably also decide to reject it as amateur effort with no innovation or accolades. No character creation, no attributes, combat based on rolls only.
As the author of the aforementioned wiki article, I just wanted to chime in and affirm Busca's assessment: Magische Steine is a bare-bones RPG by any definition. That said, I found it to be a respectable effort for a 15-year-old, and I genuinely enjoyed the process of documenting it.
DeleteWithout giving too much away, I’ll just say that if you decide to give it a try, be prepared for a puzzle-like experience at the start. There's a key piece of information you need to uncover before the game begins to resemble a traditional RPG. Ironically, once I figured it out, I felt the game lost even more of its RPG credentials.
Gurer’f bayl bar fcbg va gur tnzr jurer tevaqvat vf cbffvoyr—shyy fgbc. Baavxr V sbhaq vg, V gbpxrq gur bccbeghavgvr (va gur fcevag bs qbzpvangvat gur tnzr) gb tevaq hagvy zl UC naq rdhvczrag jrer znkfrq bhg.
Chet, one of the main motivations behind both playing Magische Steine and creating the wiki entry was your blog. I’ve been a long-time reader and fan, and your work inspired me to experience the process of playing and documenting an old game myself. All I can say is that I salute your tenacity—you have my deepest respect for the monumental body of work you’ve created.
Well, you've intrigued me enough to give it a shot, and probably a BRIEF.
Delete"These are the next seven games (after listing six, there was only 1 left for 1993):"
ReplyDeleteThere's also Fates of Twinion, unless you reject it as a mostly-online game.
I think the question should be for these "Is it still playable in a way that makes sense" today. I tried the Ur-MUD last month as it still exists well preserved. But without other players I don't think the experience makes sense as a game.
DeleteI think that's a good rule. Stuff like this should be BRIEF'd at best.
DeleteTwinion, like Yserbius, is clearly intended to be at least playable offline and solo. It's not well balanced and certainly far from the best experience you can have with the game, but as he already mentioned, he's not going entirely for the good/best experiences.
DeleteLike Yserbius, it has tiered goals with increasing difficulty/grindiness, so he can set himself the goal of just finishing the Queens Proving Grounds or, if he feels like it, the map quest.
Forgot about Twinion. I wasn't sure whether to regard it as its own game or an expansion of Yserbius. I put it aside to research and let it slip my mind.
DeleteFunny coincidence: In a thread below, after King's Quest was mentioned in the initial comment, Radiant remarked "Well, at least Ishar doesn't have a POIsonous owl!".
DeleteHe was alluding to Cedric the Owl in KQ V, the PC's companion who is much maligned or at least made fun of (see e.g. the Adventurers Guild's coverage of the game) due to the mix of being useless and its falsetto voice performance (with the "poooiiiisonous snake" being a prime example).
Fates of Twinion was heavily reworked (bugs ironed out and balance issues addressed) by Richard Aronson, designer of the later second Yserbius sequel, Ruins of Cawdor - and voice actor of Cedric.
Twinion is very much its own game, just using the same engine and (back in the day) online service as Yserbius.
DeleteI'm surprised that it's 1993 and there are still new C64 titles.
ReplyDelete1993 was also the year that Mayhem in Monsterland released, which is as good as a swan song for the system as one can hope for :)
DeleteThere's still new C64 games, just significantly less of them
DeleteThe 90s were wild on how fast technology grew, and 1993 in particular is a great highlight of this - the last c64 and ZX Spectrum games were released at the samet time as Myst or the 7th Guest.
DeleteAbsolutely, especially if you were like me and jumped from C64 directly to the PC. One month I was playing Last Ninja 3 (back then one of the rare games I actually bought) and next month my mind was blown away by Ultima VII.
DeleteComputers were still very expensive and without the necessity of the internet, you played our 8 bit computer for a long time if your parents didn't need a business computer!
DeleteI am realising I was more of a mid/high class kid in that matter, because in 1992 I already had a 386 with an Epson printer, in 1993 a sound blaster pro, and in 1994 a cd rom unit. That jump from a Spectrum +2 was really something.
DeleteArguably the best RPG ever released on the C64, Newcomer, is still yet to come, and even still there are going to be a splattering of 8-bit games until the the end of the decade. There's even a Speccy version of Heroes of Might and Magic, for some reason. (could be even more games in general, but I think the '00s were a dry decade for homebrewed 8-bit games)
DeleteI haven't played any of the games in the last few months by myself, so quite excited I know even 2 of the upcoming games. I played Excelsior very long and far, probably even finished it. I don't remember much else than I liked it a lot, so I'm really looking forward to it.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure Castle of the Winds was written by somebody who worked on Windows at Microsoft - there's a bunch of beta versions of the game that predate the public release of Win 3. There was a bunch of plot changes and other things but the guts of the game was in place. Its a fun game. The shareware game acts like a prologue but the full proper game continues immediately on and is about three times as long.
ReplyDeletehttps://archive.org/details/W3CASTLE one such version I think
DeleteClicking on Rick's name there links to other point releases as well
DeleteI knew there were allegedly versions going back to 1989, but I'd never encountered one before, thank you!
DeleteI love that I can visit the archive link mecha-neko posted, and it will run dosbox within the browser, emulating both DOS and Win3.1 and the game :D
DeleteIsn't the future magic?
Castle of the Winds is a simple and nice RPG. I think Castle of the Winds II was possibly even released same year
ReplyDeleteIshar 2 suffers a bit from the King's Quest dreary "if you didn't pick the right item at the right time you are now in a walking dead scenario"
Excelsior phase one is a really nice "Ultima clone". Character creation matters little as you can find all skills by doing quests
Daemonsgate had some interesting features, like allowing skilled party members to train other party members when camping . I don't remember anything specifically wrong with it, just that it felt a bit underwhelming, lots of walking around with no real purpose
Well, at least Ishar doesn't have a POIsonous owl!
DeleteDaemonsgate is very unfinished. There are sidequests you can't complete because the quest locations haven't been implemented. And I think only one of the three magic systems described in the manual works.
DeleteBwt, Chet, don't even bother with exploring the starting city - it's huge and there's literally nothing in it apart from the locations noted on the map in the manual.
Thanks, those are useful tips.
DeleteGiven you want to avoid spoilers, I'm not sure to what extent you check out reviews and forums in your pre-game research. So in case any of it is helpful, a couple things I've seen re Daemonsgate:
Delete- DosBox cycles suggested: ~5000
- It's sold on Steam and GOG, but at least at the former it comes without the manual and the two maps included in the original. Not sure if they are included at GOG, if not, you can find them at the ever helpful MOCAGH here or here (UK version).
- It also came with a VHS tape containing a short video titled "Travis Sewerbreath" which provided backstory via a (fictional) interview with the last 'daemon hunter'. You can find it on YT, e.g. here..
- According to a Steam review, "it can't be completed without some hex editing to get past a door very near the end of the game, the door is impossible to get through without editing your way past it."
Its Steam page states it offers "over 150 hours of play time." So by your formula that would be ... about half that? Or was it 1/3 and double the average number on HLTB (about 26h, so slightly over 50h?)?
> it can't be completed without some hex editing to get past a door very near the end of the game, the door is impossible to get through without editing your way past it.
DeleteThat reminds me of Dungeons of Avalon II, which supposedly had the same issue (to get into the Tower of Roa), though that turned out to not be a bug but just unnecessarily cruel game design: Lbh arrq gb svaq gur obarf bs n qrnq guvrs naq erfheerpg gurz nf n cnegl zrzore, orpnhfr gurve ybpxcvpxvat fxvyy vf uvture guna gur cynlre znkvzhz.
I am going to enjoy your writing on Ishar 2 so much.
ReplyDeleteThe first (and only?) rule of this blog is covering games in a way that Chet finds interesting, and I'll be there for whatever that is. But I'm excited to see things get moving. I've also been getting a little restless with the many minor iterations of games that have already been covered, and I'm looking forward to seeing some more evolution of the genre.
ReplyDeleteFive years of blog time between Ishar I (1992) and Ishar 2 (1993) really shows how many games you've covered! An amazing achievement, and I look forward to reading about these.
ReplyDeleteCastle of the Winds was one of those games that was big in the shareware era, there's a whole bunch of games like that which will spark that nostalgia for me.
Estou particularmente ansioso por Castle.of Winds e Excelsior. Dois jogos que conheci e terminei recentemente
ReplyDeleteI came across Excelsior in the 90s and loved it, having never played anything like it, haha. At that stage the only Ultima I'd played was 8. It will be interesting to see how well it holds up compared to every other clone. (I suspect it's still pretty good!)
ReplyDeleteNice - I remember playing both "Castle of the Winds" and Excelsior, being a long-time ultima fan (and ultima dragon).
ReplyDeleteBut I remember Castle of the Winds on Windows 3.11 actually, is that possible? I distinctly remember thinking "hmmm, looks and feels a bit like Sim City". Also I think I only played the Shareware version which was back then not complete.
Yes, COTW is on Windows 3.1. I don't know why I said "DOS." I was already playing it when I wrote this entry.
DeleteTo be fair, windows 3.11 runs on top of DOS
DeleteI too have positive memories of Castle of the Winds, in particular a belt item that seemed incredibly overpowered because it let you carry SO MANY HEALING POTIONS. I don't think it carried me all the way to the end of the game though.
ReplyDeleteThis is further along but kunskaps slottet is not a proper rpg,, its a Swedish school edutainment with no ducks
ReplyDeleteI moved it to the "rejected" list last week. Where did you even see it?
DeleteI saw it some time ago on the master list and mede a mental note to comment on the next post like this
DeleteAh. Well, I investigated it and came to the same conclusion that you did. Since only one site listed it as an RPG, under my rules I allowed myself to reject it.
Delete"Yes, as you can detect, we're not alternating between "new" games and "old" games for a while. It's time to get 1993 done."
ReplyDeleteThank god. Looking forward to Ishar II.
Welp, I've sent the comment before writing a proper name instead of "Anonymous", my bad.
DeleteCastle of the Winds yaaaa!!! I actually have a Windows 3.1 DOSBox image I use to just play this every few years. Classic.
ReplyDeleteI see I have been negligent in failing to document the "Usurper" BBS door game on Mobygames, which was released in 1993. I suspect it would qualify, and should yield a better play experience than Legend of the Red Dragon did: https://www.breakintochat.com/wiki/Usurper
ReplyDeleteFor Castle of the Winds I'd just say don't waste any time trying to find the story, there isn't any outside of the (genuinely helpful) help files, and the very occasional wall of text.
ReplyDeleteI just finished the first part, and I noted the story as one of its strengths. It certainly offers more than Moria did.
DeleteI'm looking forwards to your coverage of Ishar 2. It was one I remembered fondly as a kid, so when you hit 1993 in your list I replayed it in a bid to help you out and comment once you got to it. That was 4 years ago!! Hopefully I can still remember enough to contribute.
ReplyDeleteCOTW is one of the games I've been looking forward to the most, with Exile being the next one. I'm guessing Chet won't be thrilled with the UI (which is definitely meant to be used with a mouse), but it did a lot of fun stuff that you usually only see in really crunchy roguelikes, like slotted belts. It's fairly exploitable and the difficulty curve is wonky -- it's definitely not as polished as the big open source roguelikes -- but it has a lot of charm, and the primitive but clear art is kind of permanently embedded in my brain. I could probably draw some of those sprites from memory.
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking about the UI of COTW, regardless if how it was "meant" be played, it supports keyboard backups for almost all commands, allowing the player the option to use the mouse or not. This is all I ask for.
DeleteRegarding Excelsior:
ReplyDelete- There are three versions. The one being sold on the developers' website is 3.0, Windows, and supposedly "works on pretty much any PC running Windows XP or later", though given how old that statement may be and depending on your Windows version, it might make sense to ask them beforehand.
In case you want to play (closer to) the "original" version or it's easier to emulate, V1.0 and V2.0 are DOS and according to the developers can be made available as well, though there were some doubts about the former working correctly, so again, it may be recommendable to check with them.
- According to a / the walkthrough (no spoilers here):
-> The game is designed to run at 800x600 resolution.
-> There is an index of commands in the game which you can access by Shift+H.
-> Moving through the character creation menus can apparently be confusing. The 'N' key allows you to go to the next screen.
[As a side note for your Master Game List, since you mention "a 2000 sequel", according to the developers, said sequel was initially released in 1999.]
Castle of the Winds does run on Windows 10 with winevdm.
ReplyDeletehttps://github.com/otya128/winevdm
I find this less of a hassle than running Windows 3.1 in DOSBOX or PCem. This program is also very helpful to play games from the late 90s to early 00s where it was quite common for the games to have 16-bit installers even when the game itself was 32-bit.
Castle of the Winds, is, to echo other people, a classic, possibly one of the best games of the year. Less in the sense that it might not be from 1993, since apparently it might have been released earlier. Presumably you've already started it, so you probably already have a Win 3.1 emulator
ReplyDeleteDaemonsgate, pretty sure this one is infamous for being buggy as hell, be prepared to release an entry that could be summarized as "I lost, **** this ****" and get loads of comments saying "Okay, Chet, here's how you can win this time, no, don't run away screaming."
I would say that Ishar 2 is behind the times in terms of plot delivery, and is quite shallow. The graphics are nice and inoffensive, and the game is generally rather easy to play. It's not really AAA in 1993 sense of the world; the graphics allow to paper over a lot of things.
ReplyDeleteI remember hearing good things about Excelsior, but I don't remember where.