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| The character arrives in Shornhelm, my first Elder Scrolls city. |
We've had several comments to the effect that the opening Arena dungeon is very hard. I unwittingly contributed to that sentiment with my first entry, in which I reported fairly rapid death after only a couple of goblin battles and one attempt to sleep. What I should have made clear is that by that point in the entry, I had already accomplished my primary goal of describing the backstory and the basic mechanics. By the time I died, I wasn't really trying. I hadn't even saved.
In this session, I finished the dungeon. It was only one level, and it took me about an hour to explore the entire thing. I'm not saying it was easy; character Levels 1 and 2 were particularly hard. Every enemy seemed capable of halving my hit points with a single hit, and I was still getting used to some of the mechanics. For instance, I didn't yet realize that when an enemy is around a corner and you can only see part of him, you don't need to charge past him until he's fully in view and then turn around (the game doesn't offer a "strafe" option) [Ed. Yes it does; I just didn't try enough keyboard combos]. As long as you can see any part of him, you can attack him perfectly fine through what looks like a solid wall.
I also didn't realize there were perfectly safe places to rest, but the game eventually clued me in.
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| Kind of makes sense, I guess. |
Ultimately, the dungeon isn't big enough to be truly difficult. With the ability to save anywhere and reload in a few seconds, the level could have been full of liches, and I think I still would have made it. I would have just run past them.
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| My final map of the dungeon. |
In fact, I got to Ria's teleporter in only about 10 minutes by (this time) following the left wall. I decided to turn around and clear out the dungeon first, but here's the thing (and please tell me if I'm wrong): I don't think this is the kind of game where you have to clear out the dungeon. The extra experience and treasure are nice, but there are endlessly-generated experience and treasure everywhere. Thus, there's no reason to explore any one particular place past its objective. It's a little like Telengard or Dungeon Hack in that regard.
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| Ria's portal. |
Enemies were limited to goblins and giant rats except a couple of times when I tried to sleep, and some spellcasting humanoid blasted me out of existence before I could blink (or take a screenshot). I never encountered any of them during regular exploration. At first, I thought the dungeon must respawn, as enemies kept re-appearing in areas I'd already explored. But by the end of the level, I was convinced that they just roam quite a bit.
Some miscellaneous notes about the dungeon:
- I like the sound: echoing footsteps, creaking doors, grunts and squeaks of enemies getting closer.
- There are lion's head decorations all over the walls. I don't remember lions being mentioned in the Elder Scrolls universe before.
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| Two piles of treasure and yet another lion's head emblem. |
- I didn't find an elven sword this time. I did find a longsword, a short bow, and a belt. All of the armor pieces I found were metal and thus forbidden to my battlemage.
- "Fire Dart" worked really nicely, but I could only cast one or two between rests.
- If multiple enemies are near each other, you can damage them with one swing (and, presumably, one spell).
- Secret doors seem to open when you walk into them. I mostly bumped into them by accident. I'm not sure that any part of this dungeon was accessible only by secret door; I think they just offered shortcuts to areas I could access the long way.
- Other than the first cell door, there were no locked doors, locked treasure chests, traps, or anything that theoretically would require a thief.
- There were a lot of places where I had to swim, and many of those had enemies waiting on the nearest platforms.
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| A rat waits to attack as soon as I crawl out of here. |
- I found several crystals, and the manual is silent on what they do.
- I kept all the equipment I found, including what I couldn't use. I never developed any encumbrance problems.
- Getting in and out of inventory is a tad annoying.
- Enemies have a way of sneaking up behind you and hitting you before you're even aware. One second, I was walking along; the next, Ria Silmane was telling me that all hope was lost.
I got to Level 3. Each time I leveled up, I could put 6 points into my attributes. I decided to always put 3 into my primary attributes (for the battlemage, strength and intelligence) and the other 3 in my lowest attributes.
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| After killing two goblins. |
The first time I rested after I leveled up, Ria appeared and elaborated on the main quest. She said that the artifact that Jagar Tharn used to banish the emperor to Oblivion was the Staff of Chaos. It is now the only thing that can bring him back. Knowing this, Tharn has disassembled it and scattered its pieces across the continent. She divined that the first piece was in a place called Fang Lair, originally inhabited by the "Dwarves of Kragen," but abandoned after a Great Wyrm took up residence there. She knew it was in the Dragon's Teeth but nothing about its specific location. "Perhaps there are sages or scholars who would know of this place." Obviously, there's a Tolkien homage here. I don't remember the term "Kragen" before, but I think the Dragon's Teeth are the range west of Skyrim. Markarth in Skyrim is at their base.
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| There are even markings on the staff where it was segmented. |
When I took the portal, I found myself in a snow-blanketed city called Shornhelm, NPCs roaming back and forth everywhere I looked. If the dungeon felt a bit like Ultima Underworld, this part of the game felt more like Legends of Valour. The automap of the city, pre-filled with building footprints but not the names of businesses, showed the same sorts of connected buildings, walled buildings, courtyards, and other interesting shapes as the Valour map.
As I explored the city, there were some interesting visuals—trees, stone statues, canals, fountains, gas lamps, clothes lines strung across the street from second-story windows. But there was also a certain uniform blandness to everything, and if commenters hadn't already mentioned this, I think I would have figured out fairly quickly that the cities in this game are procedurally generated. The types of locations must be fixed, but they're distributed randomly across the city for each new game.
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| Walking past two very different types of statues outside a temple. I swear I've seen that second one somewhere before. |
I soon found out something vital: If the building has a shingle hung by its main entrance, it's open for business, and double-clicking on the door lets you in. If it doesn't have a shingle, it's a private business or residence, and double-clicking on the door attempts a burglary. I hadn't been in the city for more than five minutes before I tried to enter a random building, heard "stop thief!" somewhere behind me, and was dead before I saw the guard attacking me. I guess capital punishment is the default for everything in Jagar Tharn's Tamriel.
The NPCs are generated as well: Barbara Wicking, "the city-state thief"; Mordard Wicksley, "a typical mercenary"; Belladonna Hawkton, a fieldhand; Alabyrick Hawkwing, a squire; Victoria Yeomhouse, a guildmaster. (Even in that small sample, you can see how the prefixes and suffixes come together; I'm sure I'll meet a Wickhouse and a Hawksley at some point.) They each have a little elevator speech ("I got into Shornhelm a little while ago, looking for some excitement"; "I work my heart out during the harvest and starve in the winter") in response to "Who are you?" You can also ask where things are, which gives a defined list of topics. It is pre-populated with lists of inns, temples, and stores, or you can just ask for the "nearest" of anything. Sometimes, the NPCs give you a generic direction ("try to the east"), and sometimes they mark it on your map for you. I wonder if personality plays a role in this. "Fang Lair" is also on the list; more on that in a bit.
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| I wouldn't be so quick to admit that in this town. |
The final bit of NPC dialogue is for rumors; you can ask for generic rumors or rumors about work. NPCs kept telling me that a mysterious woman named Rogue Gondywyr at the King's Dragon had a delivery job.
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| About one-quarter of the city. |
The main benefit of procedural generation is that the cities feel realistically large (if artificially square). It takes about 40 minutes game
time (and about 2 minutes real time, with no obstacles) to get from one
corner to the other, which seems reasonable for a medieval village.
There are probably around 100 buildings in it. It also removes a certain
pressure from the player to see and do everything, explore every
corner, talk to every NPC just in case he has a quest. The player ends
up treating the city like he would a real city: asking for directions
and homing in on the places that have the services he needs. At the same
time, there's no real fun in exploration, and I'm betting that the game
is too early to do fun things like vary the architecture when I get to
Elsweyr or Black Marsh. Still, I could envision a good game that
balances hand-crafted and procedurally generated content. I think it's
possible that Starfield did that quite well, and the only reason I don't think so is that I disliked so many other aspects of the game.
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| Even the tavern names are procedurally generated. |
My first priority was to sell my excess equipment and buy the armor that I didn't find in the first dungeon. NPCs directed me to the Basic Weaponry Store, which despite its name had leather boots, greaves, cuirasses, pauldrons, and gauntlets as well. Even after those purchases, I had 1,790 gold. I began to wonder if Arena set the Elder Scrolls trend of giving the player enough money to last the rest of the game in the first dungeon.
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| Being a battlemage is cheaper on the wallet than some other classes. |
I next followed directions to the mage's guild, apparently the only guild in Arena (no faction quests here). There, I realized my 1,790 gold wouldn't go that far. It also wouldn't identify (at 200-270 gold pieces each) the crystals that I found in the dungeon. I did determine that my longsword was a Longsword of Lightning and that two bracelets were a mithril bracelet and an elven bracelet. I should mention that there were "steal" options in both the mage's guild and the weapon shop, but crime is something I'm going to have to investigate later. So is spell-making. Be patient.
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| I'm going to have to come back. |
The King's Dragon, in one of those oddities you get with procedural generation, shared its building with another inn called the King's Bird. You'd think that would cause some confusion. I started clicking on NPCs to find Rogue Gondywyr, but instead, she "approached" me (a message came up with no visible NPC) when I clicked on the bartender. She offered me 57 gold pieces to take a dagger to the Restless Ogre. "If it isn't [there] by Sundas, 6th of Hearthfire, my life ain't going to be worth a copper," she said. That's tomorrow.
I did the quest, and besides the 57 gold pieces, it gave me enough experience for Level 4. It's hard to imagine that it's going to be worth it to do too many of these, though.
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| Yeah, walking from one building to another really took a lot out of me. |
I got some interesting responses to asking about Fang Lair:
- Chrystyna Ashham, the interpreter: "There ain't no such thing!"
- Agrane Yeomford, the historian: "Isn't that just a legend?"
- Ysyn Hearthston, the cook: "No one's heard of that in the past 500 years." That seems like a paradox.
- Mordyval Gaersley, one of the personal priests of King Rodore: "I honestly have no idea. Try someone else. Maybe they can help." I wonder what King Rodore is the king of.
- Morgorya Hearthwing, the thief: "You wouldn't be the first searching for that. Why don't you try somewhere in the cities of Hammerfell. I heard something happened there."
- Uthane Buckingcroft, the city-state historian: "Have you tried asking at a temple? They seem to know everything." I did, in fact, try asking at a temple, but I couldn't find any NPCs in the temples. Indoor NPCs don't really have dialogue options anyway; they just give you one line.
- "Try the local inn. Tales are flying back and forth about something unearthed in the province of Hammerfell. Maybe you should check there."
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| Rochester looking dapper in his full suit of leather. |
After typing all of that, I realized that the same NPC will give you all potential responses to a location if you just keep re-selecting the same dialogue option. They never seem to kick you out of the conversation, unlike NPCs in some other games we could mention.
I got my answer about the king when I double-clicked on a gate (thinking it was the gate out of town) and found myself in the king's audience chamber and saw King Rodore before me. "It is well known that Shornhelm is currently at peace with its neighbor, North Point." Part of me wonders if even that is procedurally generated. The king had nothing to say to me except to suggest I explore the surrounding wilderness. "You may come back with something useful."
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| Approaching the king. |
We'll have more about the calendar and time system later, but for now, suffice to say that time doesn't pass too quickly in the game—about 12 minutes of game time for each minute of real time. I did all of this in one day and had time to spare. If I hadn't been leaving the game window to type this entry, I might never have experienced nighttime.
The world started to get darker starting at 17:00. By 19:00, there was no light except in an immediate radius around me. At 20:00, hostile enemies start appearing on the streets. At first, I thought, cha-ching!, but it turns out they're a bit tough for a Level 4 character.
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| What's even the point of having a walled city? |
Miscellaneous notes on the town:
- NPCs stop and face you when you get close. They stay stationary until you walk away from them. That's a refreshing contrast to a lot of games, where you have to chase them down.
- NPCs indoors don't have the full set of dialogue options. They just shout one line at you. Most of them are rude.
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| Personality is my worst attribute. |
- If you find a location on your own, the automap does not record it. You have to type it in. [Ed. Or right-click on the shop door. Thanks, Karth.]
- There's a haggling mechanic in shops, but as with many games, I'm not sure it's worth the time. One side effect is that even if you don't haggle, you have to accept the sale price of items twice, which is a little annoying.
- There's also a damage/repair system, but the armorers want multiple days to fix even slight amounts of damage. I have to spend the week in an inn just to get my longsword sharpened?
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| Good thing time passes slowly in the emperor's prison. |
I spent the night at an inn; no rumors about Hammerfell, no matter what
the NPCs said. You can book rooms in quality from a "single" (10 gold,
at least in this case) and an "emperor's suite" (75 gold). You hit the
"camp" button and appear in the room automatically. All the rooms look
alike, but I guess the amount you pay affects the quality of rest and
the number of hit points you restore.
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| This "emperor's suite" needs some work. |
In the morning, I headed for the exit. I hoped once I got outside, the automap would tell me where I was in the world, but it didn't—until I checked the manual and realized that you have to right-click on it to get the world map. I could have done that from within the town. It turns out that Shornhelm is in the middle of High Rock, home of the Bretons, one of the smaller provinces, which itself has 31 cities. Just for fun, I clicked on Skyrim, and damned if Whiterun, Riverwood, Riften, Windhelm, Winterhold, Dawnstar, Solitude, Markarth, and Dragon Bridge aren't all there, in roughly the locations you'd expect, in 1994. There are, I should add, lots of smaller towns that aren't in The Elder Scrolls V (e.g., Black Moor, Graniteshaft, Dunstad Grove, Laintar Dale), but you could chalk that up to 200 years having passed and smaller cities being abandoned or renamed.
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| My current location. |
Commenters have told me—and I have no reason not to believe them—that you cannot walk from one city to another in Arena no matter how long you're willing to spend. Each city in this game is apparently like a planet in Starfield, with an infinite amount of procedurally generated landscape around it. On the province map, there's a road heading southeast from Shornhelm that goes to a village called Markwasten Moor. In the real world, there's no road. I walked southeast from the city for about 10 minutes and passed plenty of trees, buildings, NPCs, inns, fenced-in fields, walled compounds, and ponds. I even got onto something that looked like a road at some point. But the automap continued to place me solidly in Shornhelm.
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| Wandering outside of the city. |
There were oddly no monsters in the wilderness. Maybe they only come out at night, like in the towns? I know there are random dungeons, but I (without trying very hard) didn't find any. I'll explore at least one or two random dungeons at some point, but for now I clicked on Hammerfell and deliberately chose one of the smaller towns (Riverpoint) rather than a large city. The game said it would take 13 days to travel there, but there's no cost to travel in Arena, no food to worry about, and no chance of disease, drowning, or other calamities on the road. Saying all that makes it sound like I'm taking a dig at Star Trail, but I'm honestly not. Those survival elements can be fun, too. It's amazing how much variety we get under the large umbrella of "CRPGs."
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| Most people online seem to think The Elder Scrolls VI will be set in Hammerfell. I'm still hoping for (but not expecting) Akavir. |
Before I wrap up: a commenter sent me a link to a translation of the French version of the Arena manual. It has a lot more detail on the backstory, to wit:
- Talin's last name is Warhaft.
- Jagar Tharn used to be head of the Elder Council.
- He couldn't just kill Emperor Uriel because Uriel had used the Amulet of Kings to cast a spell that would alert all of his imperial guards if he died.
- The heir at this time is Uriel's daughter, Princess Ariella Septim. One wonders what happened to her between this backstory and the beginning of Oblivion. During that game's prologue, Uriel mentions that his sons are dead, but he doesn't say anything about a daughter.
- It was Talin Warhaft who accidentally gave Tharn the idea to replace the emperor. During a banquet, Talin recounted a story in which he and his friend, Marten the Blade, were threatened by bandits. Marten cast an illusion spell to make himself look like the bandits' leader.
I was about to post a fan theory that the "Marten" of this story later entered a holy order and became the "Brother Martin" of Oblivion, but the story makes it clear that Marten was older than Martin, and that he had a son and retired. Still, one wonders why all this good material was cut from the English versions of the manual.
Time so far: 3 hours
Forgive my bias, but I'm still hoping for TES Elsweyr
ReplyDeleteI feel like I'm too traditional to enjoy a game set in a place like Elsweyr or Black Marsh. Maybe in combination with something more traditional.
Delete"I don't think this is the kind of game where you have to clear out the dungeon. The extra experience and treasure are nice, but there are endlessly-generated experience and treasure everywhere."
ReplyDeleteYup, this exactly. I'd say clearing out every dungeon like I did just makes the game even more tedious.
I think this is one of the things that disincentivizes exploration of the procedurally generated content for me—if you can get a given pile of treasure anywhere, why bother setting out for new destinations? Not to mention Gernfherf erfcnja jura lbh yrnir n qhatrba, be jura lbh zbir sebz bar sybbe gb nabgure va gur fnzr qhatrba—I'm ROT13'ing that in case you would consider it a mechanics spoiler, but you'll probably figure this out as you get deeper into the game.
DeleteI recall having that problem with Moraff's World. Yes, you can pay a lot of money to travel to a different continent, but it'll look exactly like the place you're currently in, and both are equally random.
DeleteBethesda's 1993 game "The Terminator: Rampage" also had large levels filled with endless rooms. Maybe the player is supposed to head straight for the mission objectives? Not exactly something players tend to do.
DeleteA great many things you said about Arena here also apply to Daggerfall. Honestly it sounds like DF is a refinement on Arena's systems. I'm relating quite strongly to your descriptions here.
DeleteI agree with the disincentivisation of talking to everyone. Once I got in that groove it was quite refreshing. I don't want this procedural approach often. As you say it feels bland when you can quickly peel off the surface of the system. However, the gameplay feel of striking out and finding the first few courier quests to become something out of nothing felt good.
"At the same time, there's no real fun in exploration, and I'm betting that the game is too early to do fun things like vary the architecture when I get to Elsweyr or Black Marsh."
ReplyDeleteDaggerfall already does this, though it covers way less regions. I'm not sure about Arena, but I did start in Hammerfell and the streets were roamed mostly by Redguards.
I didn't find the opening dungeon particularly hard either.
AFAIR the cities in Arena indeed have a different look to them depending on the region.
DeleteAll right. That was an unfair guess on my part, then. I should have taken a peek at some YouTube videos.
DeleteKoei's 1994 sea trading game "Age of the Great Voyages 2" (a.k.a. "Uncharted Waters 2") had towns with different architectural styles in different regions of the world, as well as different "latitude bands" of vegetation on the world map.
DeleteMind you, this was a sprite-based top-down game, so having different kinds of building wall textures in a 3-D game would be far more impressive.
Cities do have different looks, but NPCs aren't. You still get snake charmers and scantily clad women in Skyrim.
DeleteA pity Uncharted Waters 2 is not on the playlist (it dropped off, UW 1 is still there back in 1990 - both are CRPGs as per their Wikipedia page, but not on the corresponding aggregate list used as source for the blog). Judging by everything commenters have said here about it over the years, it really sounds interesting.
DeleteOh well, should have tried to put it on that list myself. Now it's late for 1994.
Capital punishment? Heh. Wait 'til you get to Ultima 8 and see the default punishment there! (nf va, gur erfvqrag nepuzntr gryrcbegf va naq zrffvyl oybjf lbh gb cvrprf jvgu n fvatyr fcryy).
ReplyDeleteUpon entering Shornhelm, you're saying that it takes 40 minutes of game time to cross the town which equate to 2 minutes of real time. But later on you're saying that about 12 minutes of game time equate to one minute of real time.
ReplyDeleteSomething doesn't add up...
I timed those things on different days and probably had the cycles set differently. 1:12 and 1:20 are not really THAT dissimilar.
DeleteAlmost double, but we'll let that slide ;)
DeleteSecond thought: There's a 'Detail' slider in the options menu which does nothing to the graphical fidelity, but slows down the game significantly the higher the setting.
DeleteMaybe you've been tinkering with that, as it would exactly produce this outcome.
The game on standard GOG settings struck me as running way too fast (on my machine), people were running around the city like Usain Bolt. I increased the detail slider to near maximum and that gave a much more realistic experience.
DeleteI meant to talk about that slider. I HAVE been fiddling with it and didn't notice any difference, but I'm very easy-to-please graphically, and most of my commenters are pixelphiles, so I figured I was just missing something. What's the point of the thing, then?
DeleteAccording to UESP it increases drawing distance at the cost of speed. Probably more noticeable in a city than in a dungeon, but I know I changed it in the city and the change wasn't as noticeable that I remembered anything about it. I was just happy the game ran slower.
Deleteas far as I can tell it's literally just draw distance, which as Buck says, is most noticeable in a city.
Delete"Each city in this game is apparently like a planet in Starfield, with an infinite amount of procedurally generated landscape around it."
ReplyDeleteIt's even possible to walk away from a town a certain distance, turn around 180°, and walk back in the same direction again and find the town missing. I could've sworn I remember the manual justifying this somehow ("They don't call it wilderness for nothing!"), but I couldn't turn up the line when I searched for it a few moments ago. Daggerfall would address this by making it possible to manually reach destination via walking, although most of the time it wasn't really worth it.
Could someone elaborate on this? How far can you walk before it forgets what was behind you? So if you pass out of view of the town, you are forced to resort to using the map to travel back to town?
DeleteI can't remember an exact distance, but it's at a certain point after the town is out of view that it disappears—and yeah, you have to use the fast travel system to get back to town (or to any town). Apparently if you walk far enough in one direction (like, well over an hour), you can screw up the procedural generation and trigger some weird glitchy nonsense. If you go to YouTube and look for a video called "Walking Across the Entire Map in The Elder Scrolls: Arena, is it possible? (Attempt 2)," you'll see this at the very, very end (not providing the link here lest it triggers a spam filter or something). Wish I knew the mechanics behind all this, but I couldn't find much detail in a cursory search.
DeleteOh, and I found that quote about the wilderness I mentioned in my initial comment—it's from the Arena Codex Scientia, a strategy guide Bethesda released in late 1994:
"If you want to go back to the closest city, click it on the provincial map. You'll be back inside the city-gates in no time. Many a wilderness explorer has Sworn he or she walked five hundred paces north of the city-gate and five-hundred paces south and there wasn't a city in sight. They don't call it wilderness for nothing."
What an odd design choice, to have the city disappear if you walk away too far.
DeleteUESP says that Arena is build out of discrete "wilderness blocks" with a settlement in the center and selected based on the first four characters of the settlements name. If you do cross the boundary, the game loops the last two loaded blocks and get glitchy.
DeleteI just fired this up to play along, and you CAN strafe by pressing Shift + Arrow Key, for your information.
ReplyDeleteDarn, it's Right Control + Arrow Key, got that mixed up.
DeleteYou can also strafe with the mouse controls by left-clicking along the bottom of the viewport.
DeleteOddly, Arena is the Elder Scrolls game I have the fondest memories of, as well as the only one I have finished. Quite possibly because it was the first game of its type that I played, but there is something to the "visit dungeon, get loot, head to town, sell loot, stay in inn" loop that speaks to me. That and completely breaking the game's difficulty curve with custom spells.
Correction appended. One of the many things I can never seem to remember is that you have to try both CTRL and SHIFT keys.
DeleteThere's another quirk in the control system I just discovered in Stonekeep: when you're trying to jump (key J) while moving around with the keypad, make sure the mouse cursor is within the upper centre displaying an upwards arrow, otherwise the jump doesn't get executed properly.
DeleteYou are more observant than me, Bestie; I just switched to mouse controls whenever I had to jump.
DeleteAnother annoying quirk of the interface (at least in my case), is how easy is to misclick the interface buttons when swinging the weapon down.
And yes, things like accessing the inventory of selling/buying feel they involve one or two clicks more than necessary, I was longing for the Ultima Underworld interface…
Would be interesting to go back and look at how jumping evolved in 3D CRPGs. In grid bases systems like Might and Magic, jump was simple and predictable, but arguably those weren’t full 3D games because there’s no real verticality other than going up/down a floor. But now we’ve just entered the era of full 3D movement, including jumping. Which games get it better, and which are worse? And when are we getting the era when it’s consistently good across most games?
DeleteThe CRPGs that do jumping well probably take their cue from FPS games. I think Heretic may be the first FPS to do it well?
DeleteThis is well out of scope now, but I'm currently playing Skyrim with SkyClimb addons and damn it feels good to jump grab and climb up terrain, even if that was never part of the core experience.
DeleteUltima 8 tried jumping Mechanics in an isometric wievpoint but with Ingrid movement.... Lets wait and see what Chet thinks about that when he reach it. It is a 1994 game.
DeleteI mean, isometric jumping in video games is at least as old as the 1987 The Last Ninja. Isometric games with greater focus on platforming include the 1990 Solstice and Cadaver. All of these have a better reputation (wrt jumping) than Ultima 8.
DeleteIf we're talking 3D RPGs and not just isometric, then I'd say Ultima Underworld does a pretty good job at it.
Or possibly 1982 if you're willing to count Q*Bert.
Delete"Which games get it better, and which are worse?" -- the RPGs that have no jumping get it better; all the rest are worse. Platform-jumping has no place in RPGs. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
DeleteQ*Bert hops everywhere and has no distinction between "jumping" and "not jumping", so I'm not counting that. I'm willing to count Pac Mania though :)
DeleteThis does bring to mind an enjoyable A-ha moment from Final Fantasy X-2. The game uses the same overworld map as Final Fantasy X, but the protagonist has can jump, which is not common in the series (or genre, really). It's just a little jump, and there's no actual platforming attached to it. But there's a part of the game where a whole new section of overworld that wasn't in the previous game becomes accessible because you can jump over the little shin-high ridge at the edge of one map that had previously been an insurmountable obstacle.
DeleteThere's a few places like that.
DeleteFinal Fantasy X-2 is an odd game, dealing with the aftermath of saving the world (in a way that's almost as apocalyptic as allowing it to be destroyed) and what comes next.
I don't remember if it's true for Arena, but in Daggerfall most things (except capitals and main quest dungeons) are procedurally generated but not randomly generated - the algorithm uses a fixed seed, so the configuration of the world and settlements persists across different playthroughs.
ReplyDeleteBtw, all the Star Trail things you mention that aren't there in Arena will be there in Daggerfall (though in simpler form).
That is exactly how Arena works, just with less handmade stuff
DeleteIn Daggerfall, the towns, dungeons and their locations are technically static and were procedurally generated in advance. The reused chunks of town and dungeon are really easy to spot too, and even storyline dungeon pieces show up in the non-storyline dungeons. The wilderness uses a height map with some randomness injected into it since the granularity of the height map is very low.
DeleteI think right clicking a door in town will mark it on the map if it's a shop/temple etc so you don't have to manually enter them.
ReplyDeleteyep! this is very helpful (although the map can end up being a bit cluttered if there's too many shops near one another!)
DeleteAwesome. Thanks.
DeleteI have already done one main quest dungeon (Stonekeep) and my impression is that the main quest dungeons are 100% handcrafted and they will stay the same in all playthroughs.
ReplyDeleteStonekeep was quite fun. I didn't bother exploring all of it, but I did like 75% I think. Felt very rewarding.
It's like there's roughly two different games here: the dungeon crawler Ultima Underworld like game - which is awesome. And then the "walk around town, ask for directions" game, which is... it gets old quickly.
There is some variation in architecture and background scenery.
Stonekeep was the dungeon I enjoyed the least, but mostly because I was in the “must explore every nook and corner” mindset. When you come to the realization that there is no benefit to that, as Chet says, it is kind of liberating.
DeleteI gave it another shot last night (free on GOG by the way), I must have played the opening section dozens of times but never got very far once I was out in the world.
ReplyDeleteThis time I got distracted looking for Stonekeep and instead died in what was maybe some other dungeon idk (not sure how to find the names of the dungeons). I do feel very under levelled, despite getting enough cash for some decent equipment. I am seeing why I never persevered in this game though.
Outside of an obsession to fill in the map, you don't have to completely fill in every corner of each dungeon level, but it's good for experience and cash overall. The treasure piles/chests do not (IIRC) respawn with time, and I don't think the pre-set enemies do, but there are random spawns as well.
ReplyDeleteWhether citizens tell give you a general direction for a building or mark it on your map is a function of distance. If it's visible in the automap, they'll usually mark it.
Random tips
Save before identifying items. If you aren't going to use an item you've paid to identify, reload and just sell it - same value whether it's ID'd or not.
Stealing from mages can be very profitable (and good for equipment boosts), as long as you don't get caught (and even then, if you can survive or run from the ensuing fight, but easier to reload if caught).
Definitely DO try to clear out or at least roam around main quest dungeons. They are not procedurally generated and there's a lot of environmental storytelling going on.
ReplyDeleteA few more tips. Try to explore wilderness some more while still at lower levels. There are tombs, castles and other smaller dungeons which can provide money and equipment.
DeleteCrime does pay in this game. Just make sure you're stronger than the guards. The manual mentions that City Guard memories are short, but you won't believe just HOW short they are.
Not all rumours given by NPCs are equal. Sometimes, very rarely, they can give leads to things that can really break the game's balance. Not that it has one, if you do some spellmaking.
NPCs in wilderness also give directions. You can grind in this game (and it's probably a good idea to until you get to level 6 or 7).
Delete"Winter" and "summer" are not just words in Arena. At least visually.
By the way, talking to NPCs is not a useless thing. This is the only way you can get artifact quests. By asking for a general rumor in the street. Pick a NPC and ask 10-20 times. The number of artifacts in the game is not that large. And if you don't need the artifact you've already been informed about, you can continue asking passersby until they tell you where to get the next artifact. This way you can find the one you need. There is only one caveat - as long as you have at least one artifact, you will not be given a task for the next one. It is necessary to temporarily get rid of the current artifact (for example, by handing it over to the master for repair) and start asking about something else.
ReplyDelete"This is the only way you can get artifact quests. By asking for a general rumor in the street. Pick a NPC and ask 10-20 times."
DeleteWait, didn't somebody criticize Star Trail recently for using that very same mechanic - to a lesser degree? And later compare Arena's dialogue system positively with said game's? Ah, yes:
"After typing all of that, I realized that the same NPC will give you all potential responses to a location if you just keep re-selecting the same dialogue option. They never seem to kick you out of the conversation, unlike NPCs in some other games we could mention."
Sure, there is a difference between information that is mandatorily needed and optional quests / knowledge. And I agree that having to ask the same person about the same thing repeatedly - especially if not clued in, which AFAIR was somewhat disputed - is not a good feature.
On the other hand, obtaining all the information on a subject from any random single source by just keeping to ask is not only rather unrealistic / illogical, but also - at least to me - a game mechanism of questionable attractiveness.
Yes, there is one more nuance - regarding the record log. Only the last 16 records are saved in it. Then there is a rewrite. To save logs of old records, you need to periodically copy the contents of the log file.0x to some other file.
ReplyDeleteRegarding enemies sneaking up: I remember the game stopped for a very short time if an enemy was generated, so you always noticed that something is around. I am not sure if this still works on modern computers.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRegarding enemies sneaking up: I remember the game fetching the data from the hard drive every time an enemy was generated, so you always noticed that something is around. I am not sure if this still works on modern computers.
ReplyDeleteChet, if you ask to repair something and refuse, there should be a line of dialogue that allows you to pay more for a shorter turnaround time (down to 24 hours).
ReplyDelete"NPCs stop and face you when you get close. They stay stationary until you walk away from them. That's a refreshing contrast to a lot of games, where you have to chase them down. "
ReplyDeleteAlso if you draw your weapon, they start running away. If you try to approach a NPC with your weapon drawn (which wouldn't be uncommon as you leave the imperial prison for example) they all run away. Really fine detail.
Ah. Thanks, my experience was the opposite of Chet leading to mildly amusing Benny Hill style chases. Now I know why :)
DeleteRegarding games keeping the same map, I find it interesting with Exile/Avernum series. 6 games, all set on the same map, not even on different parts of the map! But details change somewhat, cities rise and fall, lairs get populated and abandoned, so it still feels interesting (and your starting location is different in all games, so that too contributes to variation, since of course, monsters and rewards also "shift around"). It would be interesting if a few more games reused their maps like that, reflecting passage of decades or even centuries, but I understand why that's not a popular choice: for all content reuse you may get, too many players might find it boring, and level designers themselves might feel the same, too.
ReplyDeleteIsn't Ultima the blueprint for that?
DeleteAlso Exile/Avernum 3 and Avernum 5 are set in different parts of the world. Large parts of Exile/Avernum 2 as well.
Yeah, Ultima probably got away with it by releasing a drastically upgraded engine with each game. So even though you saw Trinsic in Ultima 6 seeing it in Ultima 7 was a totally new experience.
DeleteCurrently playing through {heavily modded) Skyrim as we speak and damned if...
ReplyDelete> Just for fun, I clicked on Skyrim, and damned if Whiterun, Riverwood, Riften, Windhelm, Winterhold, Dawnstar, Solitude, Markarth, and Dragon Bridge aren't all there, in roughly the locations you'd expect, in 1994
...didn't feel great to hear! That's awesome! So they were probably part of the original procedural generation that was promoted to real?
I'm certain there is nothing procedurally generated about the Arena world map. It's not perfect either - Vvardenfell e.g. has the volcano, but I don't recognize any settlements and Ebonheart is on the wrong side of the inner sea. Some of it could be explained by the passage of time.
Delete"and Ebonheart is on the wrong side of the inner sea"
DeleteThis is an interesting point: Tamriel Rebuilt, the massive 25-year-old ongoing community effort to mod in a 'lore-accurate' version of the entirety of the missing Morrowind mainland around TES3's Vvardenfell, actually has a city called Old Ebonheart in the location the Arena map puts Ebonheart. The 'new' Ebonheart on Vvardenfell, i.e. the one featured in TES3, is actually right across the Narrow Sea so it's presented as an outskirt of the original city that for certain socioeconomic and political reasons took prominence over the 40 years between the two games, while the 'old town' stagnated. I found it to be a pretty elegant solution to the discrepancy.
Yes, indeed, this whole review goes in the direction of reviewing the implementation of lore studied from other TES games in the very first one. Who are all these people and why should I care? Why do I read not about "some random sprites on a procedurally generated street map", but about cities in the province of Hammerfall full with Redgurads or something, even if neither was properly introduced in the game proper?
ReplyDeleteAgain, I see the direction this thing is going.
Let me clarify the "direction" that this review is going, as well as all my reviews: I review the game I played, as I experienced it. I don't artificially try to recreate the experience of a 1994 player who has never played any other games. It is part of my experience with Arena that I know what's coming up, and I feel it's worth commenting on.
DeleteIf that's a problem for you, it might be worth doing some self-reflection as to whether it continues to be a good use of your time to patronize this blog. It might be worth it regardless, since almost all of your comments in the past year have been negative and, increasingly, insulting.
IMO attempts to recover "the original historical experience" of these games are fool's errands anyway. Often those reviewers attempt to approximate the "original experience" by divesting themselves of any context outside the actual game but that's very far away from what the "original experience" was. The original wave of players read reviews, they read tip columns in magazine articles, they read strategy guides, they discussed games offline and online (and in the later case in many venues that are lost forever). You can research some of this stuff to get some insight into what that original experience was (and in this blog you, specifically, regularly do!) but so much of it is unrecoverable. The past is, ultimately, a foreign country.
Delete@CRPG Addict: That seems a bit harsh. I agree that sometimes - like in this instance - RG's comments have been unnecessarily confrontative, tending to aggressive, and would then rather earn him the moniker 'RantingGamer' instead.
DeleteOn the other hand, he has also often made knowledgeable contributions and is one of the very few people here who dare to regularily question or even critize your approach, conclusions or judgment. As with most things, too much of that is not helpful, but to me a smaller healthy dose of it is not a bad thing per se. And of course, the style of messages matters as much as its content.
As for the actual question at hand, I can see somebody feeling you might be 'at risk' to be a bit 'starstruck' here and there when it comes to TES, same as with Ultima, due to your personal history with the respective series. However, I would give you the benefit of the doubt, trusting you'll still put it into perspective and in the end judge it mostly on its own merits and not too much by what came later, same as you did with Ultima I (or Akalabeth).
Finally, the whole 'original experience' is a can of worms. I understand you (now) usually try to play an 'original version' without mods etc., but of course it's not the same as somebody back then for the reasons both yourself and James Neal mention, plus not original hardware etc. (not sure what the policy is about (late) patches, which can have an impact on bugs etc. experienced - did you install the fan patch in Star Trail in the end?). In the end, everybody chooses for himself how to experience a(n older) game. If somebody doesn't like the way you do it, those persons can always do it differently for themselves, have their own personal experience and draw their own conclusions.
I agree with Commenter and to be honest I don't see what's wrong with Random Gamer comment... IMO he just stated his opinion and his comment is totaly neutral. And he rises some good points - for somebody who is not well versed with ES universe blog's approach can be a little disorienting (who are these people?). And there's risk that you Chet judges it more as an another entry in the ES saga and not as the first entry. On the other hand - and I'm writing it as a guy who isn't ES scholar and who knows only a few ES-related terms - I find Chet's approach fascinating, because I love when fan talks about his favorite franchise. There's lot of interesting connections and trivia. So IMO every approach has pros and cons. RandomGamer just likes other than Chet's.
Delete"since almost all of your comments in the past year have been negative and, increasingly, insulting."
DeleteI don't follow each of the posts but this part rings quite true. You can be very insightful (as random gamer is, for sure), without the tone
It's unfortunate that the automap lacks an eraser. Ouch.
ReplyDeleteProcedurally generated towns are a very interesting feature. On the one hand, you experience and generate a new story with each replay. As you wrote, it certainly builds a feeling of immersion in a realistically populated small town.
On the other hand, the locations could feel arbitrary and superficial.
The pressure to explore meticulously, but also the joy of exploration, is lower than in detailed predefined locations. At least that's my expectation and limited experience.
By the way, "Rochester" has a kind of medieval, majestic sound. Very felicitous.
You put the quill to the text and press backspace.
Delete"There are lion's head decorations all over the walls. I don't remember lions being mentioned in the Elder Scrolls universe before."
ReplyDeleteSince we were just recently discussing that subject in another thread: maybe at some development stage this was planned to be a Narnia RPG? ;-)
"If multiple enemies are near each other, you can damage them with one swing"
Somewhat different, but reminds me of the 'Sweep' mechanic in the early Gold Box games (only against low-level enemies, though). Wonder if other games back then had/have this.
Not nearly enough games have the "Sweep" mechanic. Imagine how much more fun Oblivion would be if at lvl 20 you could sweep the goblins like they were flies, instead of them scaling to your level.
Delete