This is a note to let you know about two things. First, I have made a page dedicated to information about the Master Game List. Desktop users will see it among the pages in the upper-right corner. Mobile users will see it in the drop-down menu under the header image.
Since I can't allow comments on pages without breaking the "Recent Comments" page and widget, this entry can serve that purpose, and after it publishes, I'll link it from the page.
I also want to let you know about a slight change in protocol in how I approach the list. This change is to stop wasting my time with BRIEFs on type-in games and proto-RPGs that do not meet my RPG definitions. This is what I'm going to do from now on:
- Put any game that any of my sources lists as an RPG on the master list initially (status of "Unplayed").
- When the game comes up to be added to the "Recent and Upcoming" list, I will do some initial investigation to see whether I agree that it's an RPG. If I agree that it is, I will add it to the "Recent and Upcoming" list, and you can expect an entry.
- If I don't agree that it is, I will see if any other source lists it as an RPG. If at least two sources call it an RPG, I will at least BRIEF it, even if I don't agree.
- If only one source calls it an RPG and I don't agree, I will delete it and move on.
These changes naturally don't apply to games I've already played or BRIEFed. There's also still room for exceptions.
I've added GameFAQs and the Universal Videogame List to my list of sources, but I think I might just use them as confirmation sources rather than populate my master list with entries that are only in those sources. The list of sources may otherwise change over time, and I'm happy to take nominations for other sources, particularly platform-specific ones that might lead me to find games for undervalued platforms.
Again, use the comment section for this entry to discuss anything else about the Master Game List page.
Beautiful! Thank you for the update, Chet! I know your time is valuable as well, so I can appreciate trying to maximize the way you use it. The sheer volume of games makes it even better when you can "culll the herd" a bit like you have suggested. Thanks for your dedication to this!
ReplyDeleteI agree with this tweak to your protocol. The way you've evolved this over time has been great, but I think there is room to be a little more selective (personally I'd also be fine with you using BRIEF more often for the games that you do try, there is still an entry, we still learn something about the game).
ReplyDeleteGreat you have a landing page for the master list now :-)
Out of curiosity: the rule that lets you "reject independent and shareware RPGs if they are clearly amateur efforts" has been in place for a long time, but have you ever used it?
DeleteHmm, unless I missed it, I don't see Ultima VIII on the list?
ReplyDeletePerhaps it counts as a platform game instead of an RPG? :P
DeleteIt's listed as Pagan: Ultima VIII, so it's under P rather than U in 1994. Between Ormus Saga III, The: The Final Chapter and Power of the Hired.
DeleteOrigin styled it as "Pagan: Ultima VIII" and so that's how it's listed.
DeleteJust like how Ultima III is in the Es because it's called "Exodus: Ultima III" on that game's box? (I'm still gonna call them "Ultima III: Exodus" and "Ultima VIII: Pagan" anyway. XD)
Delete@Radiant: 'Jumpman: Ultima VIII'. With an in-game main theme by Van Halen ;-).
DeleteThere's tremendous historical value to the gaming community when you bring attention to a game that might otherwise be lost to history (Jason Dyer has expressed similar sentiments on his Renga in Blue blog where is attempting to play every adventure game ever made). For many such games, your blog entry will become the definitive resource for future generations if few/any others are still playing them, and can unearth a game of sufficient quality that it deserves a renaissance.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, if the research and overall gaming experience feels tedious and frustrating and you are deriving little if any pleasure from it, moving on is very understandable. The sheer volume of games is daunting and overwhelming especially as you're getting deeper into the shareware era where the barrier to entry for releasing a game publicly was lowering rapidly.
This sounds like a reasonable idea to focus more on 'real' CRPGs.
ReplyDeleteRegarding potential sources, quite a few platforms should be basically 'through' by 1993, but since you still have a backlog/backlist for the foreseeable future:
- For Atari machines, Atarimania seems to be a big database and still quite active. Drawbacks: I understand you have to search separately by each type/series of hardware (if there is a global search, maybe someone else can point to it) plus the genres containing RPGs put them together with adventures, like GB64 does, which might lead to quite a few 'false positives'.
Maybe complement it with (or use instead) AtariUpToDate which has a separate 'Role-playing games' category where games also are still being added. It's limited to Atari 16/32 bit compatible systems, though.
- For maybe doublechecking 'RPGs' of GB64 before actually downloading and testing them, maybe look at more details e.g. on the C64 wiki (the German version is still more extensive).
I went trough Atarimania and other sites some time ago , looking for STOS games and what I found was that most games listed as rpgs/adventures already on the playlist or are false flag games and don´t meet the criteria for this blog. But this was a short search and not indented for this blog so I could have overlooked something
Delete- On the Amstrad CPC, the reference site is CPCRulez. Here is their list of RPGs: https://cpcrulez.fr/info-role-playing_game.htm
DeleteThat's 42 titles, but some of them are poorly categorized and not RPGs, and you've probably played a good chunk of the rest. There are still a few titles that are not found elsewhere, since Mobygames doesn't have a lot Amstrad CPC games.
- The reference site for French platforms like the Thomson computer is DCMoto [http://dcmoto.free.fr/index.html] and its sister sites (DCAlice for the Alice and its one (1) RPG), DCHector for the Hector and its zero (0) RPGs, ...). The Thomson is particularly interesting because it has several unique Italian games (the Olivetti was a Thomson compat). Almost none of those games are on Mobygames or any non-French non-Italian site.
The problem with DCMoto is that it does not categorize game, but I wanted to deep dive into all the titles to list of the wargames as I approach the end of 1984 if you are OK with that, I can use the opportunity to list all the RPGs as well and be done with it.
Since we're giving out the rest of the '80s stuff that Chet is going to be so grateful to us for mentioning, Generation MSX is a useful place for MSX games, and they even have an easy to search RPG section:
Deletehttps://www.generation-msx.nl/software/result?ge%5B%5D=Rpg
The good/bad news is that there's going to be basically no RPGs in English for it, since while it was used around the world, it's primarily a Japanese computer. On the bad side, anything that is a RPG and is something Chet can play probably means it isn't very good.
@Morpheus: OK, I was holding back on that as I did not want to make myself even more impopular with our host ;-). I recall Chet saying/writing he's not 'obligated' to play games with fan translations (of course, in the end he can do what he well darn pleases), they'd go on the already quite large 'initial reject' pile with pure console games etc., but since you mentioned Generation MSX:
DeleteOn that sorting search page you linked, you can also additionally choose 'translations', which brings the current number down from 287 to a more manageable 43.
@Chet: Regarding translations, I understand you relied so far on them showing up e.g. on mobygames. I noticed already a while back their list of games thus marked is rather incomplete, i.e. there are RPGs listed on mobygames for which (fan) translations exist without that being shown in the entry / respective list.
However, I assume your policy is to wait until someone changes that and not commenters pointing it out. That's why I have refrained from sending you those so far. (And to be honest, I'm not invested enough in this to try to get those changes made on mobygames.) Otherwise, just let us know.
Your blog your rules. There's a number of very obscure early BBC Micro, TRS-80, and TRS-80 CoCo RPGs that I've added to Mobygames over the years that certainly wouldn't show up in any database you listed other than Mobygames. Then again, maybe that's the point to weed out those games and actually play fun ones. :P
ReplyDeleteThey would only be weeded out if they are only on Mobygames and he disagrees that they are an RPG. The two sources thing is just to override his disagreement.
DeleteExactly. The point is not to play only the fun ones, but simply not to spend so much time playing games that aren't RPGs at all.
DeleteI don't think you really need to feel restricted by the "two sources call it an rpg" thing. Especially with type in and early console titles, a lot of things get called "rpgs" that are really adventure games or little mini war games that threw in 1-2 rpg mechanics. Similarly I like the Fire Emblem series and hope you do too, but if you said srpgs go in their own little pile you're not playing, I would understand.
ReplyDeleteConspiracy time...
ReplyDeleteDo you ever think that some of these proto/quasi-RPGs get called that by the platform's fans because they're self-conscious about their platform and want it to have RPGs, so they stretch the definition of the word until they make it fit the games?
I can't help but think of that CoCo game that boasted "At last! Arcade-quality graphics and sound!" The delusion seemed to be for the benefit of the customer just as much as it for their deception. The devs really wanted to make an arcade-quality game and their customers really wanted to play one.
I would say you're wrong, since it's not exactly like a console/computer is necessarily any worse/better for having a RPG on it, but in your favor I have seen a lot of people grossly over estimate their stuff in order to make it seem cooler, even if it just affects something they like.
DeleteI think it's more that they don't know what else to call a game in which you move a little icon around a screen and lose "hit points." I don't know what to call it, either, but that's not my problem.
DeleteI again caution against GameFAQs, I remember correcting a game's genre from something it quite blatantly wasn't to the correct genre and it basically took no effort or checking. (for the record, it was shoot 'em up to first-person adventure) Maybe they changed in the past...oh, wow, 15 years, but I'm sure the scars of either trolling or lack of care are still going to be there in anything that people just added and never bothered fixing.
ReplyDeleteUvlist, meanwhile, while I'm not familiar with the submission process, seems to be pretty useful, a few odd choices sometimes, but it seems to be accurate from everything I've seen there. In some regards it's neater, because they'll have games without a known year as 198? or 199? or so and unreleased games. (which wouldn't help you, but I found it interesting)
Follow-up question for our esteemed host: do you have some kind of policy on unknown dates? I notice the spreadsheet has a actual date given for every single game. Do you pick one and roll with it? Do RPGs just not have unknown dates? (With adventures, I currently have 911 of them with no date.)
DeleteI don't think it's come up that often. When it has, I guess I've chosen what I feel is the most likely date based on any available evidence. You have *911* games with no dates? That's crazy.
DeleteI would put it this way:
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I think you should not blindly stick to random number generator, because reading about a bunch of crappy DM clones in a row is a slog. Leave a space for curated entry from time to time.
Secondly, I personally more curious about some of the games you abandoned, like Antares, then about late C64 games that try to clone a more advanced gameplay in a hopelessly outdated system.
As far as hidden gems go, I'm not sure there are many left. It's better to go forward to 1994 than keep dredging the 80es blindly.
What might help is a periodic "Comment period". Have a "these are the next 3-4 games on the list" entry every time you start the last game that's been commented on, so everybody who knows the games in question can discuss the merits, This is feedback you're already getting, but it is slapdash over the comment sections for unrelated games and thus any discussion is hard to follow. Putting all the "Hired Guns is not an RPG/Is an RPG" chatter in one place would make it easier to follow. This would also provide a central area for the important (sometimes VERY important) discussions on bugs, emulation issues, translation errors, and other issues that routinely crop up with a lot of older games. Getting this all in one place would not only make searching for it easier, but allow for people who are behind the blog (and thus not reading the comments on the newest entries) or who are ignoring some entries because they find the game in question incredibly tedious an easy way to leave a comment.
ReplyDeleteThat's an authentically good idea. Where were you 15 years ago?
DeleteI originally read "emulation issues" as "emotion issues." It works either way.
I feel like somebody did make this suggestion at some point, but it was an era when the issues were less obvious.
DeleteThanks for the mobile love, one of the sites I can follow through wi-fi at my job on my phone
ReplyDeleteIn the Playlist field, I assume NV means "NeVer" What does NI mean? "Not If I help it"? :)
ReplyDelete