In a room with a fountain and an imp, and on a level with an altar, Uz the Barbarian contemplates his next moves. |
In the course of my playing since last time, I have discovered the following things:
- When "applied," figurines turn into allies. Although I still find allies (including the dog) annoying when trying to navigate, they are undoubtedly useful in combat.
- This is something I "re-discovered": identify scrolls are extremely cheap. If you try to sell one to a merchant, he'll only offer a little; if you try to buy one from a merchant, he only charges a little. This amuses me, because as far as I'm concerned, identify scrolls are the most valuable objects in the game.
Clearly, the shopkeeper knows what it is. Would it have been so bad if you could pay shopkeepers to identify items for you? |
- When you visit a shop, you want to stand at the end of a row of goods and huck weapons down the row to flush out any mimics that might be hiding there. I find that they do serious damage but also give a lot of experience, and if I get the jump on them I can usually defeat them. Sometimes shops have 3 or 4 mimics.
- Also in stores, if I encounter one on an early level, I find that it pays to buy as many potions and scrolls as I can afford and use them right away. If they do bad things, well, I'm on an early level, so no big deal. Either way, they give me intelligence as to what the items do, which helps enormously later on.
- I found an amulet of ESP but it didn't do anything for me until I was accidentally blinded, at which point I could see everything on the level. I suddenly realized the use of the blindfold that you occasionally find. I also discovered that unicorn horns cure blindness: I was desperately trying everything.
- Lumps of royal jelly found in beehives heal as well as satisfying hunger.
- Wraiths can drain levels, but eating their corpses restore them. Man, I wish this was true of Dungeons & Dragons.
- Eating stone giants increases strength.
- There's no problem with backtracking, especially if food isn't much of an issue. Sometimes it makes sense to squat on a level to get your experience up or find better items. Sometimes it's worth revisiting a store, even if it's six levels ago. I've learned to keep notes on major features on levels. Until recently, I was stuck in Rogue mode, mentally thinking that I always need to keep pushing forward.
Trying to play NetHack without spoilers creates a significant problem: on higher levels, I can't experiment. On level 1 or 2, it's easy to say "let me mess around with this and see what happens" because the consequences are less severe--if you die, you've only wasted a few minutes. Only a lunatic, on the other hand, starts "experimenting" on level 15. I'd love to know what eating a unicorn corpse or a gelatinous cube does, but no way am I going to risk it. I guess this is what "explore mode" is for. For those of you NetHack-philes, how is "explore mode" regarded among serious players? A legitimate way to learn about the game, or an inexcusable exercise in spoilers?
A couple other notes, for which I wouldn't mind some ROT13 hints if you have any.
- There's nothing more frustrating than hearing the sounds of a store on a level ("clinking of change," "someone cursing shoplifters") and not being able to find the secret door to get there.
- I still have no idea how to use fountains and sinks except to occasionally drink from them. Hardly ever does anything good happen when I do this.
- I find gems everywhere, but shopkeepers hardly ever seem to want them. I'm not sure if they serve any purpose.
- There is literally nothing I hate more than being infected with lycanthropy. Every time you change, you drop all your stuff. I have successfully cured it with prayer, but this doesn't always work. Yes, I understand that there are supposedly benefits, like being able to summon allies, but I find that this doesn't make up for being unarmed and unarmored.
- Since multiple monsters use the same letter or symbol, you have to differentiate them by color. That's a bit of a problem for me, though I'm trying harder to note at least the general color ("reddish" or "blueish") so I can make an educated guess. The difference between Red Mold and a Rust Monster is not trivial.
Rust monsters are bastards. |
I keep reading that for NetHack experts, almost every game is "winnable," which means they must know every trick and resource. I certainly don't need to get to the point where I can win every game, but I would like to win one. Maybe Uz will go the distance.
Later edit: Uz ultimately made it to dungeon Level 18. There, he encountered a white dragon and killed it! Even though I was full, I figured no way am I not eating this corpse. I choked while trying to eat it and died. Time to play something else for a while.
Getting killed by the dragon itself would have been a good death. |
Perhaps you can change your console's color scheme, find some colors that are easier to distinguish?
ReplyDelete- Sbhagnvaf: Lbh pna qvc guvatf ba gurz gb perngr oynax fpebyyf naq cbgvbaf bs jngre (juvpu ner gur zbfg inyhrq gernfher va gur qhatrba (ab, ernyyl)). Lbh nyfb pna qvc n ybat fjbeq cynlvat pregnva ebyrf naq nyvtzragf ohg V jba'g fcbvy lbh gur erjneq.
ReplyDelete- Trzf: Havpbeaf ybir gurz. Fryyvat gurz vf n jnfgr.
- Ylpnaguebcl: Gurer vf na nzhyrg be evat (V qba'g erzrzore rknpgyl juvpu bar) gung cebgrpgf lbh sebz genafsbezngvbaf juvyr jrnevat vg. Gur qbjafvqr vf gung vs lbh qvr juvyr genafsbezrq jrnevat gur guvat lbh pna'g erobea nf lbhe bevtvany enpr.
I'll bite: why would a potion of water be the most valued item in the dungeon?
DeleteSome others gave you some hints about this earlier, but I think if you do some experimentation with how it can affect your items, especially the cursed, blessed versions.
DeleteThen think of what could change the status of water.
A bigger hint in rot13 but still a hint not a spoiler.
Ubj jbhyq n cevrfg znxr ubyl jngre?
So, I think you died because you over-ate, full-sized dragons make for big meals.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, what true gamer could pass up the opportunity to feast on dragon flesh!? What true barbarian for that matter!?
I count this as a noble death.
I also have the same issue regarding high-level experimentation in roguelikes.
"Do you eat the corpse of Shub-Nibboleth, Demon Vizier of the Nepharim and penultimate boss of the entire game? Y/N"
"Y!!!"
"Your body is wracked with unimaginable torment as your nucleotides burst one by one. YOU HAVE FAILED."
Curiosity killed the char.
Without spoilers, Nethack is very much a game of trial and error. This is the reason why people doubt you will win the game without spoilers. It's not that the spoilers would provide information that you are incapable of determining on your own; it's that if you have to discover every potential fatal error through an actual fatality, then you will lose hundreds characters in whom you have already invested many hours. Certainly this leads to an incredible feeling of accomplishment when you succeed, it also is something that most of us who "grew up with the game" experienced over the course of many years, rather than a few weeks.
ReplyDeleteYes, slowing down the rate at which you hit keys is a major step towards ascending in NetHack.
ReplyDeleteThe next major one (for me at least) was learning about how time works in the game. You can attack once per turn, but the rate at which monsters attack varies with their speed and with yours. If your character is slow, then monsters will get more chances to attack you in a given number of turns. Various things will speed up or slow down your character -- look for the messages about it.
Playing NetHack is a bit like counting cards in BlackJack, in that you're looking for every little tiny advantage you can get so that you can stack them all up together and manage to beat the house. At least, that's what I've read -- I've spent hours and hours playing NetHack but never actually tried BlackJack. :)
On the topic of different creatures with the same letter, if you hit '/' it will ask "Identify unknown object by cursor? (y/n)". Say yes, and then you can move the cursor to the monster and hit '.'. It will tell you what the letter means, and what that particular instance of the letter is. For example, I just fired up a game and saw a 'd' on the first level. Doing this shows:
d a dog or other canine (jackal)
Have you tried identifying gems?
The ';' command is actually a bit quicker if you just want to identify a single monster.
Delete";" must have been implemented later, because in 3.0 it doesn't appear to do anything. But "identify" is indeed the solution to my problem. The funny thing is, I originally knew it was there and then forgot about it. That's the third or fourth time something like that has happened with NetHack. I guess I'd better re-read the game manual again every month or so to make sure I haven't let some vital command or option slip by.
DeleteA reference card might help: Just cross off stuff that doesn't work in your version: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Reference_card
DeleteIn very general terms, the way you will learn to ascend is by learning to recognize dangerous situations BEFORE you actually in danger. Recognizing a dangerous monster when it is still at range is essential, because it allows you to control the engagement. When the monster is at range, you may wish to use a wand (which are very powerful in early/mid game) or you may wish to retreat to the upstairs so that if things go badly you can escape (although you will need to learn which monsters can follow you upstairs).
ReplyDeleteYou want to always have a means of escape at hand in the mid/late game, and you need to learn to recognize when to use it.
Think of ascending in Nethack as a series of sequential probability checks. If you have a 5% chance of dying on every level, then you will almost certainly not ascend. If you reduce that to 0.5% or lower, then you will start to have a good chance!
Oh, one other comment on the controls in the game -- if you want to wait a long time to regenerate hit points, rather than just leaning on the space bar (which, as you've seen, tends to get you killed), you can use the "repeat" command. For example, doing '20s' will search up to 20 times, stopping if it finds something or if a monster appears. '20.' will wait for 20 turns, or until it sees a monster ('You stop waiting').
ReplyDeleteOh, and never hold down a key. You can use the repeat command (which I think is "n" by default) to rest and it should interrupt if something happens. So, for example, "n30s" would search 30 times. (You may as well search instead of just standing there.)
ReplyDeleteIn some versions of the game, there is also a "run" command which will let you move in a particular direction until you are interrupted. This is useful for traveling down corridors without carelessly running into a floating eye. I'm not sure whether the run command exists in your version, but the "repeat" or "count" command should be in there.
Thanks. That was just a matter of me missing something vital in the documentation again--in this case, specifically, that you have to hit "n" first. That'll be a big help.
DeleteFor future reference, whether or not you have to hit 'n' first depends on whether you are using the numeric keypad for movement.
Delete"Since multiple monsters use the same letter or symbol, you have to differentiate them by color."
ReplyDeleteWhy do you insist on using the ASCII version when graphical versions exist?
The ASCII versions postdate this era.
DeleteI meant the graphical versions, of course.
DeleteTo me, there's something aesthetically appealing about the minimalist ASCII "graphics."
DeleteYou also get a lot more information from ASCII, and can fit more on screen. Tiles tend to reuse symbols, whereas, for us non-colourblind people, you get some colour coding with ASCII.
DeleteAlso, you get to learn monster symbols, with is important for scrolls of genocide.
The graphical versions are actually HARDER to differentiate the monsters. Plus, text mode is oldschool, and our author is all about oldschool.
ReplyDeleteStore on a level:
Gurer vf n frperg qbbe fbzrjurer ba gur yriry. Frnepu nyy gur jnyyf hagvy lbh svaq vg.
Vs lbh pna'g svaq vg, gura hfr n cvpxnk (vs lbh unir bar) gb qvt guebhtu gur jnyyf. Jurer qb gb qvt? Lbh unir gb trg gur "srry" bs gur yriry. Ybbx ng gur fperra, naq gel gb svaq gur "oynax fcbg" jurer fbzrguvat fubhyq or, ohg vfa'g. Qvt gnetrgvat gung nern.
Fountains:
V arire hfr sbhagnvaf. Gurl'er hfrshy sbe znxvat cbgvbaf bs jngre bhg bs onq cbgvbaf, juvpu lbh gura znxr vagb ubyl jngre. Gurl'er nyfb hfrshy sbe znxvat fpebyyf bs cncre bhg bs onq fpebyyf, vs lbh unir n zntvp znexre lbh pna jevgr nal fpebyy lbh nyernql xabj.
Gems:
Trzf ner ernyyl n eryvp sebz cerivbhf irefvbaf bs gur tnzr jura tbyq jnf zber vzcbegnag. Vqragvslvat gurz naq fryyvat gurz vf gbb zhpu gebhoyr. Guebjvat gurz gb havpbeaf pna vapernfr lbhe yhpx (vf gurer yhpx va 3.0?)
Lycanthropy:
Ylpnaguebcl qbrf vaqrrq gbgnyyl fhpx. V'ir dhvg tnzrf nsgre trggvat vg orsber.
Monster ID:
Cerff / gb zbir lbhe phefbe nebhaq gur fperra naq . gb vqragvsl jung'f haqre vg.
Rust monsters:
pneel n whaxl frpbaqnel jrncba gb xvyy gurz, be fynl gurz sebz n qvfgnapr jvgu neebjf.
On using spoilers:
Qba'g srry onq nobhg hfvat gurz. Gurer ner cnegf bs argunpx 3.3 gung V arire, rire, va n gubhfnaq lrnef jbhyq unir thrffrq. Gur tnzr vf fgvyy n sbezvqnoyr punyyratr rira jura lbh xabj vg nyy. Argunpx vfa'g yvxr bgure PECTf, ab fve.
How are they hardet to tell apart? Do similar monster use the same graphics?
Delete(Been a long time since last I tried it)
Thanks! I read "gems" so far, because it was really bugging me. No, I don't think there's any "luck" in this version. Throwing them at unicorns isn't something I would have guessed.
DeleteMore uses for gems:
DeleteThrow them at monsters, they do the same damage as a rock.
Use them as sling stones.
They give you points, but only at the end of the game.
Let them fill up in your inventory. Since worthless gems are more common than real gems, you'll have more of them. If you have 17 green gems and 3 green gems, the stack of 17 is worthless glass.
In short, gems are from when people put more importance on loot. If there's no luck in 3.0 then gems are not important, since there's not usually expensive items for sale at the shops. That's probably why the luck/unicorn mechanic was added in the first place, to make gems more useful.
Don't feel bad about using spoilers. They come from reading the game's source code, which most nethack players regard as a completely legal part of the game's documentation. The spoilers just compile everything into nice lists so you don't need to rummage through code. Trust me, nethack is difficult enough already. I played for ten years on and off before I won for the first time.
Oh, and you use slings by wielding them and throwing rocks, something that's not obvious right away.
DeleteNetHack has always kept track of your luck, and the unicorn thing definitely exists in version 3.0.
DeleteFountains also interact with cursed items.
DeleteI prefer daggers and darts for ranged weapons, since you can throw them without switching weapons. Also, much more common.
So, onwards to Dark Heart of Uukrul?
ReplyDeleteOf all the games I've played as part of my own chronological playthrough (now reached mid 1993) Uukrul, a game I had hardly even heard about before, was probably the most pleasant surprise.
At least in my opinion explore mode is fair game if you don't want to spend years on figuring out how everything works. As far as I know the general consensus is that everything you figure out by yourself counts as unspoiled, no matter whether you used explore mode or not.
ReplyDeleteI think I might allow myself an "explore" session after every character who lives to Level 8 or so. It's probably the only way I'll ever get through the game.
DeleteIf you have a good character going and run into a monster you're not sure about, try wizard mode. I'm not sure if it's in that version, but most versions if you type "nethack -u wizard -D" at the prompt you can enter wizard mode. This lets you generate monster, gives you unlimited wishes, and all sorts of other goodies to recreate the situation and see what needs to be done. Use a different character, course.
DeleteHmmm. I thought that's what "explore" mode helped you out with. I just tried what you said, and it works, although I don't know how to generate monsters. I'm not sure that wouldn't be going a bit too far, anyway. I might allow myself to use "explore" mode, but I still think I ought to encounter the monsters organically.
DeleteDiscovery Mode is a legitimate way to learn the game, but in practice spoilers are nearly essential to win Nethack. Nethack 3.1 offers a form of in-game spoiler that still in principle takes many games to use, but eventually can provide enough information to win the game.
DeleteNethack experts don't consider spoilers to be cheating; indeed many of them got to be experts by *source diving*, going right to the source code to answer their questions. Cheating would be manipulating the game state through out-of-play means, like restoring multiple times from a single save.
The realization at the top of the post made me laugh - I had the same realization eventually (with Dungeon Crawl). It helped enormously. These are actually turn-based games. You can take your time. The instinct is, for me at least, play faster as things get hairier.
ReplyDeleteAnother very important thing for me was to take a break when bored. So you don't end up dead from being careless after playing for a while.
Awesome death there if you ask me. Exactly what Nethack is about if you ask me - dying in hilarious ways. Now, I've been looking forward to Uukrul for a while, so I'm pretty excited about the next few posts.
--Eino
Yes, that's a good tip: stop when bored or frustrated.
DeleteAh one of my best characters died from eating too much also :D. Was too encumbered and had loads of food, so thought, I'd lighten up by eating it all, oops :)
ReplyDeleteFountains and sinks still have other uses you have not tried, but both still carry elements of danger. But I guess you have figured out anything interesting carries a chance of danger, even shops ;) Given what level you have descended to, I would think you would have wandered into the minetown and sokoban levels but haven't seen you mention them?
I don't think they appeared until a later version.
DeleteYou should never eat a dragon if you're sated; if my memory holds up, if the message bar says sated it's always a risk. Everyone dies to it at least once, though.
DeleteWhen you get to Nethack 3.1, you will have reached what is mostly the modern game. There are substantial new features released after that (like skills, Monks and Sokoban), but for the most part the game remains with that structure to the present day. 3.1.3 was the longest-lived branch.
Sorry of off topic comment, just wanted to say that your blog is amazing. I came across it yesterday and read it for several hours straight.
ReplyDeleteI'm on my journey into the history of RPG myself, so it is very interesting to read about your adventures.
Thanks, Nicolay. I'm glad you enjoy it. What are you playing right now?
DeleteStruggling through Ultima II. Title screen is going to appear into my worst nightmares. Had to restart several times after finding myself with low HP or food far away from any town. But I really want to complete all Ultima games in order.
DeleteYou must steal and murder. It is the only way.
Deleteeasy way: start as a thief.
Deletego to the african village.
go to mcdonalds.
steal from the takeaway counter to the east.
flee when guards close in.
re-enter. rinse and repeat.
A stupid and sinful death fit perfectly the barbarian
ReplyDeleteTo distinguish "R"ust monster from "R"ed Mold you can use a key to look around : the "." I think in latter version. It will slow you down but when in a room with lot of monster it's useful.
You're slowing down approach is good. I usually die after playing too much and rushing too confidant in my power.
For your resting too much, or searchin to your death, I know (in latter version) you can use a command to do something search/rest/etc until something happen (you become hungry, or you see a monster). May be "n" X "Command" where "n" is the key, "X" the number of time you try and "command" the order you want to perform said given time. So "n 100 s" will make you search 100 time for secret door, but will be interrupted all bt itself if something bad happen.
Yeah, so actually Red Mold uses the "F" key. I'm not sure why I had it tagged as "R." It was a bad example. I did get the "look" trick down, though.
DeleteMonster difficulty is determined by an average of dungeon level and character level. If you rush downwards, you will encounter increasingly difficult monsters. I would recommend fully exploring each level unless food an issue.
ReplyDeleteBe aware that there can be vaults on a level which give messages related to coins also. Cash register always means store. Counting money always means vault (and vaults aren't connected by existing passages...lest you drive yourself insane with searching.)
Yes, that's an important bit of intelligence. Thank you!
Delete"I ran into a succubus who seduced my dull barbarian. The game told me that it 'raised me to my full potential.' I'm not sure what it did for me statistically, but she took almost all my money for the service."
ReplyDeleteThat's no succubus, it's a scientologist! ~_^
I had intended to make a joke about Joel Osteen there, but I figured it would be too obscure. Yours is better.
DeleteI think I'm stating the obvious, but it's an erection joke isn't it?
DeleteYour mind is in the gutter, Giauz.
DeleteSuccubi suck.
DeleteGuh..... now I've fallen for some in-joke haven't I?
DeleteHence making this comment thread not very different from a Roguelike.
Delete(And I suppose my mind was in the gutter, too, then. After all, what else could it be! :D )
Might a quick reference card help? http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Reference_card
ReplyDeleteUnicorn horns can cure a *lot* of things. Also a good 2 handed weapon.
Beware of ESP; it only reads minds.
Regarding backtracking and inventory; I keep caches of good loot on previous levels, in case my gear gets destroyed.
Some money sounds are not due to shops, but something else; there may not be a secret door. Note down the level and come back with a scroll of magic mapping or a potion of something (maps a level; one monster, that you hate, will have them a lot).
You can dip things in fountains. This can be very good or rust the item.
You can kick sinks, which can do something nice, something very bad, or nothing.
Gems can be sold for a lot, but only once identified.
Unicorns like gems, but you have to be careful as they don't like glass.
Praying will get rid of lycanthropy.
Someone already told you about /, so that should help with monsters.
As far as I can tell you can't customize monster colours, just turn colour off. Sorry.
Nethack already uses every letter on the keyboard for a monster, and all the caps, so yeah, not much they can do.
Accented letters possibly? Different fonts?
It seems most of this stuff you know already. Try using whistles and seeing what your pet does.
Also, dropped something on an alter yet?
Thanks. This helps quite a bit. The whistle seems to summon my dog, but this usually isn't a problem; in fact, I have a hard time getting him to go away.
DeleteIt's hard to imagine wasting a precious identify scroll on gem.
Once you identify it, you'll automatically recognize all others of the same type. (ie: all emeralds, all diamonds, etc.)
DeleteI think the strength increase from eating the giant's corpse just is a result of all the physical effort it would take to pull off the attempt!
ReplyDeleteSorry to hear about Uz :(
True. I'm not sure how some of this corpse-eating is really accomplished.
DeleteYou'll be amused to find out that the potion which sent you through the roof is a cursed potion of gain level. I love nethack.
ReplyDeleteI figured it was a blessed potion of levitate or something. "Gain level." That's funny.
DeleteGain level is one of the most useful cursed potions, offset only by its substantial uncursed use.
DeleteUz was a BRIGAND, not a Barbarian!!!!
ReplyDeleteA brigand would never eat a dragon's flesh.
He was a barbarian. "Brigand" is just the name of a particular level within the barbarian class. Barbarians start off as "plunderers."
DeleteNow you gotta eat a unicorn! How many times do you get to give someone that advice? I don't know anything about this game, but I would expect unicorn flesh to be healthier for you than a dragon corpse, just my 5 cents.
ReplyDeleteRegarding some of your comments, a thorough reading of all the commands would definitely seem in order. Just remember the core rule of NetHack - the Dev team think of *everything* - after all, this is a game where they actually include the kitchen sink! If something seems too silly to try, try it anyway. What's the worst that can happen?
ReplyDeleteOh right. Death.