I'm down on the fourth level now. Here, the walls are filled with sconces, and in every sconce is a torch. I pull them all out until my inventory is overflowing, and then I throw the rest on the floor to help remind me to collect them later. While I'm messing with that, I'm brought into combat.
This one is a larger group with three monster types, including a couple of spiders. I know there's poison in the game because there's a level 8 "Cure Poison" spell, but these spiders don't seem to be poisonous. They are harder to hit and seem to do more damage, though. I get through the fight okay, with a couple of strategic maneuvers to pull back an ailing character for healing in the middle. There are two more bags of gold. Everyone is mostly healed, but I'm out of spells, so I return to town to stock up.
While in town, I offload half a dozen torches to the party stash. I remember that I picked up a dagger on the first floor and take a moment to investigate selling items at the shop. The manual notes a high mien characteristic helps with bargaining. Most of mine range from 6-10, but during my creation phase, I held onto one character whose mien ended up at 14. The rest of his stats were terrible so I'm not adventuring with him. He just hangs out in the tavern. Let's pretend he's the band manager. I named him Meanie, because I was plum out of creativity juice at the time.
As an experiment, I have Meanie and one of my low-mien characters approach the shop. It's quickly clear that mien doesn't affect the purchase price of anything. That dancing sword is 20,000 for both of them. But when it comes to selling, the ugly duckling is offered only 1 GP, while Meanie is offered 3 GP, which is equal to the purchase price of the dagger. That's a much better exchange ratio! I think I remember from my 1995 replay that if you have high enough mien, you can exploit an infinite money glitch, selling for more than the purchase price. For now, that's not an issue, but having a dedicated haggler is going to be valuable.
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| It pays to be charming. With high enough mien, you can sell bags of gold for more than their literal value. |
Back underground, I find my first key on the floor, and shortly after that a locked door on which the key works. You can edit item names in this game so I change the label on the key to reference the floor. With the key, you have to select the character who is holding it, have the key in inventory (not a pocket), and then have them click the door. The icon does change to show the key in hand, but it's easy to forget and try with the wrong character first. Doors are weird in this game, too. They take up a full square on the map, but you automatically move into them when you open the door. I've already had to redo maps twice because I don't properly count that space.
On the other side of the door, I find a large talking head in one nook, which asks the riddle the Addict already documented. This gives me two separate stairs down from this floor, once I'm ready. Since this one was being gate-kept, I'll probably explore the other first as the more natural path. There's another door and a long hallway with free unlit torches in every square. A bonanza! Except that at the end of the hall there's a bend and a dead end. If this were Skyrim, you'd need to do something like light every torch on the hall to open a secret door. As I'm testing that theory, I drop my torch on the floor and find myself in darkness once again.
Yes. Yes I do: Mostly in case of character loss, in case I only have humans left. But also because I'm not sure if they help me find things like hidden buttons and secret doors. I honestly don't know if there are many of those, but one of my three clear memories from 30 years ago is that there's at least one very important secret door.
I'm attacked again by monsters, another mixed group, this one with more spiders and some kind of worm, plus the crab-blobs.
There's an animation of falling to the next floor. I take minimal damage, which seems nice, and even sweeter are the four 100-gold piece bags sitting at my feet. Problem is, I've got a locked door to my back and in front of me there's a prowling monster that is either a feisty squirrel or a dragon. With only one direction to go, we step into a fight and are immediately slaughtered by what I'm assuming were not squirrels. It's my first full-party death. I'm sent back to the tavern but all my heroes are either totally gone or left behind in the dungeon—I'm not sure which, but I won't find out because I reload instead.
This is when I realize I've been making a mistake with the save files. If you launch the game from the main app, it runs off the main save file, but when you restore a game by launching from a backup file, the game then continues writing to that backup file. To be fair, the manual warns you that this is how it works and tells you to immediately back up again if you restore from one of these files, but my instincts are all wrong and I keep forgetting to do it. For me, saving in an old blobber like this is for towns. You don't want to trap yourself in a walking dead scenario. Save files are supposed to be re-usable, and only a madman (or a mad god) would save immediately after restoring.
The next time through that square room, I don't see any Tasmanian devils at all, but I do find a stairwell up to a different part of the previous level. Thinking this will be safer, I start exploring, mapping a large and twisting room uneventfully. In the back of the room I detect a gleam of treasure, what looks like a full set of armor. I rush to grab it but am jumped by a trio comprising a sorceress, an executioner, and a minotaur. The minotaur is very tough, seeming to get twice as many attacks as everyone else. We only barely win the fight, but it's worth a ton of XP—over 400. One more fight and a couple of my base class characters will go up a level.
I've also learned a couple of things. One, mien is a little erratic when it comes to sales prices. I considered selling the sticky chalice, and was offered 2,000 GP. A nice haul, but I wasn't sure if this was a valuable item, so I declined. When I checked later the same character was only offered 1,400 GP. Then on successive inquiries it bounced between 1,600 and 1,800, before giving me an all-time high of 2,040. I said yes, and when I looked in the shop I could buy it back for 2,000. Honestly, it's a little weird and annoying that I would need to try to sell items a handful of times, take down the best price, and then maybe keep trying for a while to get or beat it.
I also was reminded that when a character dies, you can't move or do anything while the dead characters are "unsupported." In the party window, you need to drag the icon of a dead character onto that of a living character, to indicate who's carrying whom. Also, whenever you select a dead character, the screen goes black, because you're seeing what they're seeing. Every time this happens, I think the game has crashed or we've all died before I remember to click back.
I decide to ditch my magus, who hasn't been very effective as a fighter, has only 5 HP, and will require 50% more XP to level up in the long run. I don't need two magicians without spellbooks. I make a second pure fighter instead, DV, this one with 8 HP, so I have a stronger front line. If or when I find a second spellbook, I'll consider swapping him out.
As frustrating as it feels to lose progress, it only takes me 15 minutes to get back to the same spot I was in before. More of the time is spent mapping and dealing with unfamiliar territory. Once you know what you're doing, it's easy to repeat.
On the fifth floor, the map has really opened up, and I have multiple unexplored paths, including what seems to be most of a 28 x 28 grid (this game works with the "worm tunnels" model, with a solid square of rock surrounding the explorable space) plus multiple up and down stairwells. I keep trying different paths and make good progress on the map, even if my characters aren't getting any benefit. I find so many torches that my party stash in town actually fills up, and I stop collecting them. I have burned through exactly two so far. I don't know why I'm being so paranoid.
It becomes clear some areas have fixed combats, but there are also a decent number of random encounters. This implies there isn't a fixed limit on XP or gold in the game. I've seen at least a dozen different types of monsters, though as far as I can tell all attacks so far are physical. I still don't have monster names and all combat gives is hit/miss sounds; there's no way to tell how much HP they have or how much damage I'm doing. Some combats drop multiple weapons, a few drop gold sacks in amounts varying from 50 to 200.
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| Four game hours from now, I will find this combat message window and be forced to retract my complaints. Instead, I'll complain that this window covers too much of the screen. |










I like how you still use oldschool graph paper for mapping. I did for a long time until I managed to find a decent mapping tool which I actually payed for.
ReplyDeleteThat message about being returned to the edge of town is really weird to me, like who am I supposed to be playing as that's getting returned to town? The spirit of the party???
ReplyDeleteI also make tiny dots in my dungeon maps to mark squares I've stepped on.
ReplyDelete"Suffice to say that things start to look up from here."
No way but up when you're at the bottom of the elevator shaft.
I haven't done manual mapping in a while, but when I did I also went with dots for walkable squares. In worm-tunnel maps I used to just shade (by hatching) the impassable squares instead of drawing walls, though. Walls were reserved for earlier games (early BT and M&M, say) in which every square was usually walkable and it was the walls between them that were real.
DeleteAnother one here who still uses graph paper and also the dots to mark explored squares. Haven't changed to Excel or a mapping utility yet.
DeleteI guess old habits die hard, but having to have an additional window open and close all the time or cover part of the screen real estate instead or else even needing a second screen also have kept me from trying it so far.
Meanwhile, I actually lightly shade (using pencil) all the squares I've visited. Even if I'm using software to map, I'd colour in all the squares I've visited light grey.
DeleteThere is a fascinating study waiting to be done about the idea that you have not "earned" a save or it feels "wrong" or however you and Chet similarly sometimes find yourself in these situations--it reminds me of my friend whose therapist said something like "you said you like playing video games--is that how you usually relax?" and my friend said "I don't usually feel like I've earned the right to play video games."
ReplyDeleteEasy for me to say as someone who has never felt the least bit of guilt or remorse or anything about saving my progress as constantly as the game will let me, given how I have several times quit playing games forever after losing less progress/time than you did seemingly in one session of Citadel.
Yeah, I never understood keeping yourself from saving. Personally, I'm of the mind that if a game lets me save wherever, I will use and abuse it as much as I can. After all, that's within the game's rules, thus hardly can be called cheating. And for older games on emulators, well, those tend to be hard enough as they are, so I don't particularly feel it unfair to use savestates if I have to. But, of course, to each their own.
DeleteI can think of a few things.
Delete1. In The Bard's Tale and Wizardry, saving could only happen in town, at the end of an excursion. That starts to become reflex after a while.
2. Worrying about walking dead states. Nothing like saving and then finding out a pack of vampires was directly behind you, or in my case when you're down a pit without a levitate spell. This is a bigger deal with limited save slots.
3. Disk space management. Obviously not a problem with modern hardware, but on these old Macs it was relatively easy to fill up the entire hard drive with save files. I know I crashed a lab computer doing that with Dungeons of Doom, and I think I came close here once before figuring out how to expand the emulation space.
4. A code of honor, for the blog? If you're going to record an experience for posterity, I guess there's a sense of giving it a real effort and not taking the easy way out. Maybe that should be applied more strongly to hint books, walkthroughs, and game bugs, but abusing save states is probably at one end of that spectrum.
I don't have trouble saving a lot in other contexts. The incremented save file number on my Skyrim is enormous, and I the "save state" function on my NES emulator is my best friend.
Beyond all that, I think this game just has a separate issue with the way it handles save files. Launching a game and then immediately saving another copy feels weird, and you have to keep track of which file is active. It can also be hard to figure out the state of the older saves. Looking at Chet's old entries about the party moving around--saving in the dungeon but reloading in town--makes me think files were getting mixed up for him, too.
I think it depends what you want out of the game. If you just want to see the story/finish the game by any means, then sure, put it to easy and save all the time. If you want to overcome a challenge then saving all the time can quickly cheapen that.
DeleteThat said, the argument that it's just doing what the game allows quickly loses its lustre when immediately followed with also abusing emulator save states to do the same in games that don't permit any-time saving.
Yeah, saving in this game sure sounds like a pain. It kind of reminds me of how Wizardry 1's remake handles saving, which, as I understand it, is like that to more or less emulate how switching and copying save discs worked in the original. I guess that's another Wizardry inspiration here.
DeleteAs for using save states, this very blog has proven that there are quite a few older games obnoxious enough that even somebody who is as careful about saves as Chester will be forced to use save states to finish them.
Playing ironman can add to the enjoyment of roguelikes and -lites, and it's easy to forget that when you can save. But those games are typically short and plotness with random maps - starting a new game is as much fun as continuing, and playing ironman adds to the challenge. For long rpgs it seems like masochism.
Delete"Beyond all that, I think this game just has a separate issue with the way it handles save files. Launching a game and then immediately saving another copy feels weird, and you have to keep track of which file is active. It can also be hard to figure out the state of the older saves. Looking at Chet's old entries about the party moving around--saving in the dungeon but reloading in town--makes me think files were getting mixed up for him, too." I have had this issue repeatedly with Mac games. I'll make a backup in a separate folder and somehow the game finds that backup when loading, completely screwing up my sense of what file is the active file.
DeleteI eventually just started mounting a separate hard drive file for my active game and backing up that file in Windows, restoring it as necessary.
"For me, saving in an old blobber like this is for towns. You don't want to trap yourself in a walking dead scenario."
DeleteIn a recent entry on Waltorious' blog he decribes how a 1987 Japanese Famicom RPG - a dungeon crawler in which you also have pits through which you drop to lower floors (Yuushi No Monshou: Deep Dungeon (The Hero’s Crest: Deep Dungeon)) deals with the walking dead issue in this context:
"In fact, the lowest depths of the dungeon can only be reached this way, which means it’s possible to get trapped with no means of escape, unless players have found a critical item first. Fortunately, saving is disabled on the lower floors unless players have that item, so there’s no danger of overwriting a save and getting permanently stuck."
Of course you still have to reload and probably lost some time playing by the time you find that out... .
This writeup continues to satisfy. Thanks to Quirkz and Chester for getting this published.
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear, thanks!
ReplyDeleteAnd also to say it once, thanks to Chet for the editing and the platform. Contrary to his note, I have no objections to how this entry ended. He also nailed it with today's subtitle, which sums up the episode well and made me chuckle.
That damned subtitle. It was going to be "Leaving a Lot to the Imagination," but then you came through with the extra screenshots. Then I had a variety of puns on religious uses of "save" because I was confusing citadels with cathedrals.
DeleteWelcome Quirkz and thanks for keeping the blog going! This seems like an interesting game to me, but then again I don't have to play it.
ReplyDeleteQuirkz, I salute you, and look forward to the continuation of this masochistic quest!
ReplyDelete