Monday, March 9, 2026

Star Trail: Siege Perilous

Won?
      
Well, I have to hand it to you: All of you knew what was coming, and you managed to keep the secret. All I can say is that there's a right way and a wrong way to do this kind of thing, and I'm not sure the game did it the right way.
     
When we last checked in with Star Trail, the party had found the Salamander Stone and was on its way to Lowangen to deliver it to either of the two parties who approached us at the beginning of the game and asked that we find it. One, Elusrion Starlight, wanted the artifact to unite the dwarves and elves against the orcs. The other, Sudran Alatzer, wanted it for . . . profit, I guess. Elusiron wanted us to deliver it to a dwarf named Ingramosch, Alatzer to a woman named Vindaria Leechbroon. Either way, the recipient was supposed to be in Lowangen.
       
Ambushed on the way.
       
The problem: Lowangen was surrounded by a besieging party of orcs. Approaching the siege camp produced a multi-stage encounter.
 
1. A description of the orc army. Here we learn that orcs are called "blackpelts" by the civilized races of Arkania. The options are to turn around or "walk on." Turning around sends us back along the last road segment we traveled.
 
2. The orcs don't seem to care about our presence. But suddenly, four orcs start walking towards us. Options are to keep walking, start running, or turn around. Turning around sends us back along the last road segment we traveled. Either of the other two options, to the best of my recollection, accomplishes the same thing.
       
Why are you besieging the city if you don't want to hurt anybody?
      
3. The four orcs come up to us and demand our "baggage and weapons." We have options to hand them over or say that we'll turn back. But at this point, it's too late. Even if we turn back, they take all our stuff. There's an option to fight, but it leads immediately to unavoidable death for every character.
     
While the orcs are stripping us of our stuff, a shaman approaches, says that our magic stuff is dangerous, and the orcs put them back. Thus, we arrive in Lowangen, with everything gone—weapons, armor, canteens, tools, sleeping bags, rations, lockpicks—missing. We keep our gold, base clothing, any magic items (including our Girdles of Might and Obsidian Daggers), and the Salamander Stone.
       
This is how the game explains the orcs taking our silverware but not our magic swords.
       
I tried everything to get around them. When I left off last time, the party was going up the west bank, but the trail pattern made us cross the river again before we reached the city. I tried coming from the south. I tried swinging east, then north, and coming from the north. I tried going far north past the city, to the menu city of New Lowangen (it had a temple and an inn; nothing special), across the river, and then south on the other side. That got the party mired in a swamp for about half an hour, and I ultimately reloaded.
        
I think we're here too soon.
       
A few things happened during my attempt to get around the orc siege. First, we fought a few random battles with orc patrols. These were enough to level everyone up to Level 4. Oddly, the characters didn't always gain levels immediately after a battle. Sometimes, they only leveled after a night's rest. Do I get experience for camping? I'll have to check next time.
   
Second, we ran into a friendly NPC named Antharon who was also traveling to Lowangen. We allowed him into the party, although his "rogue" class should have dissuaded us. I was convinced to keep him because he was Level 12 and thus a lot stronger than the characters.
       
Never trust a guy who doesn't shave.
     
Third, we kept getting messages saying, "the pursuers are getting closer." I don't believe there was any kind of encounter that explained who "the pursuers" were. When they finally caught up to us, we found ourselves in battle with a large party consisting of a dwarf, a couple of warriors, a druid, two hunters, and two magicians. It was a tough battle. We won through the usual tactics, including frequent "Lightning" and ganging up on enemies one by one. They mysteriously had no loot at the end of battle.
     
Are these guys just a plot device to force us to go to the right place?
        
Eventually, I had to admit there was no alternative without cheating. I did think of a way to cheat: I could create six new party members at the temple in North Lowangen and give them all the stuff. I didn't do it, first because I don't like to cheat unless it's necessary, second because it seemed like a pain, and third because I didn't know what way we'd be going when we left Lowangen.
   
I walked through the orc camp and handed over my stuff. The party arrived in Lowangen, and then got hit with the second "screw you" of the session: Antharon's brother Gavron came to meet him. The two brothers left the party after giving us all hugs—and stripping us of the Salamander Stone. I tried reloading and kicking Antharon out of the party before we reached the city, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Gavron still meets us and asks about his brother, then steals the stone and disappears into the crowd before we notice.
     
"And the Salamander Stone with him," the game concludes.
        
Fun.
        
Anyway, it's nothing we can change, so we start exploring the large city. We find, in rough order, the following. I should warn you ahead of time that this is a very long bulleted list. This is perhaps the longest bulleted list I have ever created. I didn't realize how big the city was until I was well into it.
    
  • A lot of people who don't want us in their houses.
       
That seems unfair. We just got here.
       
  • Taverns called Last Hour, Hammer and Anvil, and At the Canal. Ominously, they don't have any food available, just watered-down wine. In talking with the bartenders, I note that GAVRON is a keyword, but they don't know anything. One says that Ingramosch is trying to mobilize people against the orcs. We earn a couple of gold pieces with our "Acrobatics" skills.
  • A house occupied by Raisha Rotenegger, who slams the door in our face.
  • A house occupied by a guy named Pagon Droler. No matter what I ask him about, he says I'm babbling.
  • Vindaria Leechbronn's house. She was the "evil" option for turning over the Salamander Stone. She slams the door in our faces. We force our way in and find ourselves in battle with a bunch of warriors and elves. It's a tough fight, as some of my characters are unarmed and all of them are unarmored. We loot a bunch of equipment and 50 gold pieces. Searching the building afterwards, we find a lot more equipment (including 40 rations, ropes, blankets, and water skins) and the Salamander Stone! That was a surprise. But as we leave, I realize that Toliman was killed, so I have to reload and do everything again.
      
Cramped quarters for this battle.
    
  • Healers named Kysira and Pareinor Vormtann. 
  • A smith named Roglima the Great. One of the nice things about having no equipment is you have nothing to repair.
  • An inn called Trenchbog, run by a guy named Vitus Gullits. He says I can get the "best information" at the Orc Death in the Svelltwash neighborhood. He has no food and no lodging space available.
  • Two merchants named Vistella Ebenborn and Ugo Plotz. They sell general goods. I don't buy anything right now, but I make a note of the places so we can stock up again before we leave town. They have no rations available.
  • A couple of brothels. Even if we wanted to stay, the rate is insane. It would cost 96 gold ducats. We only have 64.
     
This is what people mean by hyperinflation during war time.
      
  • A house occupied by a woman named Black Jandora. We ask for lodgings; she refuses.
  • The Stronghold of the Grey Wands. I have no idea what they are. Again, we ask for lodging; again, we're refused. Same thing happens later at a place called Hall of Power, an academy run by Master Yendrion, and the Academy of Deformations.
  • A healer named Jhaell Startrail. This game seems to enjoy doubling up its names. ("Salamander Stone" is also the name of an inn in town.) Everyone I ask about STAR TRAIL thinks I'm talking about her. She suggests we ask the dwarves in the Eydal neighborhood about Ingramosch.
      
Face-palm.
        
  • An inn called The White House. When asked about INGRAMOSCH, she says that "Ailian Sevensprings set him up here a few weeks ago." Sevensprings supposedly lives in the area. She has a dormitory available, so we spend the night.
  • Herb shops run by Farmion of the Kvill and Dimiona Adingor.
  • A guy drops a bag in front of us. We pick it up and return it to him. Mysteriously, he denies being the owner before running away. 
  • Parts of the city are connected by bridges. One has a guard who insists on 1 silver piece every time we cross. Another has a donation bowl. The amounts are trivial, but their existence keeps us from fast traveling across town. We have to stop at the bridges every time.
     
This town is full of thieves. Are we supposed to believe that they leave the donation bowl alone?
     
  • A couple of houses where the game specifically says, "No one hears your knocking." That makes me think there's something important about them. 
  • A note on a wall encouraging us to eat more cheese toast. 
      
You don't have to convince me.
        
  • The town's fortress, to which we are barred entry by guardsmen.
  • The north gate. If we try to leave, we have to fight like 20 orcs. At least it lets us try. On the way in, the game just assumed that any battle resulted in instant death. 
       
I should have listened to that gate guard.
        
  • We're accosted by a party of beggars and thieves who demand our food. We refuse, but there are like 20 of them, and they kill us without much trouble. We reload, but there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid the battle. After multiple tries, we manage to kill them, but with many party members near-unconsciousness. In trying to recover from this battle, I discover that the game will let us just camp in the street.
      
In most RPGs, the choice would be obvious.
       
  • The house of a man named Dragan Escht. He says he'll help me find Gavron if I can get "the Vinsalter" to visit his house to help him translate something. He lives in the Colorful Flight neighborhood. Since there's nothing in the game to tell us what neighborhood we're in, I don't know why the NPCs keep telling us the names of neighborhoods. "The southwest part of town" would have been so much more useful. I don't even know if it's worth pursuing Gavron at this point. I really just want to find Ingramosch.
  • A female beggar asks for some money. We say yes, and she thanks us. The game doesn't offer an option for how much to give, or even tell us how much we gave. I think it was about 2 gold pieces. 
     
She is more to be pitied than censured.
     
  • An old woman approaches and offers to sell a magic amulet for 10 ducats. I think we had the same encounter at the beginning of the game, and commenters said I should have bought it. I buy it, and it does increase the character's magic resistance by 5 points.
       
I think this exact scenario was in my corporate security training.
      
  • An inn called Evdal House run by Elgor Onder has dormitory beds available but no food.  
  • A shop called Thorescha has rations available, for 5 gold pieces each. Lockpicks are 24 gold pieces. That's price-gouging.
  • Another battle with a party of beggars. Only six this time, so we do better. Still, this seems like it's going to be a recurring thing until we get out of here.
      
Doing our part to relieve the refugee crisis.
     
  • At the temple of Ingramosch, Xobert Zornbrecht tells us that he thinks Ingramosch left town for the Blood Peaks "to take care of the orcs." 
  • The Smithy of Ingerimm. The smith, Angroscha, doesn't want to let us in. She suggests we see Bromhead or Roglima for a weapon, but I know from experience that neither of them has any. They just repair. 
  • At one point, I accidentally walk into the canal and discover that it's not a barrier. I guess those points I put into "Swim" were well-spent.
  • At the Magistracy (town hall), we learn that not only is the town short on weapons for its defense, it's actually illegal to own more than one weapon. We offer our excess weapons to a councilwoman, and someone important (the game isn't clear on who he is) makes us honorary citizens of the city, which comes with a document and everything. The town took everything we didn't have in hand, including some magic Obsidian Daggers.
     
Thanks, random guy.
      
  • More inns (The Inn, Svelltje Palace, The Little Prince, Bit and Ducat), taverns (Hammer and Anvil, Water and Wine, Klonballa's, Dark Eye, Orc Death, Salamander Stone, Little Fox Den), and temples (Tsa, Boron, Travia, Rahia, Hesinde) where they have no food, no lodging, and no information. 
  • We find the house of The Vinsalter, but he doesn't want anything to do with Dragan. We plead and offer to pay him to no avail. One of the party members suggests we return tomorrow.
      
I actually have no idea. Could you tell me what a "Vinsalter" is? It sounds like a jackass who runs around ruining people's wines.
      
  • The Exhibition of Art in Craftsmanship. It's closed. 
  • We find Ailian Sevensprings's house. He gives us the unwelcome news that Ingramosch left town ages ago, headed for the Blood Peaks, through some kind of secret exit. He says Dragan knows where it is. I guess all roads lead to Dragan. He suggests that if Ingramosch has left the Blood Peaks already, it will probably be for the city of Tjolmar.
         
I really appreciated the ability to make map annotations during this session.
     
Finally, at this point, we've explored every building in the city—I think. Islands and clusters of buildings sometimes make it hard to explore systematically. We camp for the night and try the Vinsalter again. This time, in response to our "sorry story," he agrees to go see Dragan. He joins the party as an NPC and we take him across town, praying we don't get attacked by another beggar pack, as our hit points are almost gone.
        
Dragan is happy when we return. On the subject of TRAVEL, he suggests we talk with Black Jandora, who knows a secret exit. As for GAVRON, he wants us to do another favor before he'll tell us: Retrieve his brooch ("an heirloom that the town more or less stole from me") from the Exhibition building. 
     
Maybe I'll just call her "Jandora."
       
Jandora wants 300 gold pieces to get us out of town, or six times more than we have. We remind her of favors she owes to Dragan, and she lowers it to 100—still too much, but I have stuff to sell. I visit Vistella Ebenborn's shop and manage to get to 185 gold pieces with the extra Girdle of Might and the jewelry I looted from Vindaria Leechbronn's house. (I'm curious what would happen if I just spent it all on brothels. Would I be in a "walking dead" situation?) While I'm there, I load up on basic sundries again (no sleeping bags, alas), which cost 28 gold pieces.
       
This still annoys me.
      
We burglarize the Exhibition Hall in the middle of the night and steal the brooch. There were several opportunities to turn back during the escapade, and I don't know whether our ultimate success had anything to do with our statistics. I wish more games were transparent about when you make a skill check.
   
Back at Dragan's, he tells me that if I want to catch Gavron, I should ask around the Orc. Again, I don't know whether I want or need to catch Gavron—perhaps I should just head for Jandora and the secret exit. I have to wait nearly a full day for the Orc Death to open. I spend that time re-checking stores, but I can't find anyone who sells waterskins or sleeping bags, even at inflated prices. (On the subject of water skins, I note that my party members' thirst meters haven't budged while in the city, and the few water skins I have remain full. I think the game assumes we're drinking from the many wells in the city.)  I re-check the price of healing and deem it too expensive.
      
One-fifth of our money to heal one character.
      
When I finally get into Orc Death, no one can tell me anything about Gavron other than he occasionally comes into the place. But as I leave, I see Gavron poke his head in, then flee. The game gives me an opportunity to follow him, but of course since you can't see figures in the environment in this game, it's all done by menu.
  
When I catch up to him, I'm surprised that one of the dialogue options I have is, "Where is the Salamander Stone?" Didn't I find it? Is it fake? We interrogate him, and he tells us that he "delivered the [stone] to Vindaria." Where we already found it. So I guess this whole plot thread was in case we hadn't stumbled on Vindaria's house on our own. 
         
I feel like there should be more options here.
      
We return to Jandora and pay her the 100 ducats. She says to go to the castle of the knights' order at the north end of town, ask for Master Eolan, and tell him we want to "sweep the yard." I assume this is the place called the Castle of the Order of the Grey Staves on the map and the Stronghold of the Grey Wands when we knock on the door.
   
Master Eolan gives us unfortunate news: He'll only let us go if we find a missing member of his order first. The man is named Agdan Dragenfeld, and he got lost crossing the swamps to the west. Taking this mission will require us to leave two party members behind in the city. (I try refusing, but we end up in a cell and there's an instant "game over.") I leave Toliman and Lyra behind, and soon the other four members are outside the city.
       
I wonder if I should take the Salamander Stone or leave it with one of them.
          
I'm going to end here, but it occurs to me that I could reload from before visiting Master Eolan, drop off two party members at one of the temples, create two new party members, leave them with Master Eolan, and reunite with the original members at the temple in New Lowangen. I probably won't do this for role-playing reasons, but is there any reason this won't work? Or what if I just created two new members and headed directly for the Blood Peaks (assuming that's where I need to go next)?
          
Star Trail is hardly the first game to strip equipment or party members at scripted plot moments. I try to roll with the punches and not let it annoy me, particularly when it feels more or less organic. I generally hate these moments at the time, but when they're all over, I sometimes realize that I enjoyed the extra challenge. One of the later chapters of Fate: Gates of Dawn offered a notable example. Still, it annoys me somewhat that this game encourages the player to hyper-prepare with equipment and then steals it all.
      
I thought the developers did a reasonably good job depicting a city under siege, with a subsequent breakdown of order and lack of basic services. There are RPGs in which the party would literally solve all of this: find food, find water, restore order, and defeat the orcs all by themselves. I enjoy those types of heroics, but there's also something fun about the opposite sort of game, where six people can only accomplish what six people could reasonably accomplish. Will Star Trail hold true to this experience, or will we be confronting armies by its end? I guess time will tell.
      
Time so far: 29 hours

93 comments:

  1. "Star Trail is hardly the first game to strip equipment or party members at scripted plot moments. I try to roll with the punches".

    Hmm, sure sounded to me like you were trying by all kind of means short of cheating - which you considered - to go around that encounter once you first had it.

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    1. My impression was that he was trying to test whether the game lets you avoid the scripted encounter in order to inform his readers, not because he wanted to have a more pleasant or easier gameplay experience.

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    2. That theory went out the window once the whole "create an additional party member" was considered.

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    3. He considered it. He didn't do it. I wouldn't even consider it cheating, given that the game allows creating party members and passing items between them. I don't think it's worth it, though, new characters appear in Kvirasim and you have to bring them all the way down to Lowangen.

      I had a different idea: I stored all my stuff at a depot before leaving for Lowangen. Joke was on me, the orcs took the document that you need to get your stuff back.

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    4. In the immortal words of our host, audible laughter was produced.

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    5. You can consider something as a speculative thing, wondering whether it's possible to do in the game, without having any intent to do it, anyway.

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    6. Hey!

      The alternative theories are "trying to get by all kind of means short of cheating around the encounter" and "test whether the game lets you avoid scripted encounter". In my book, transferring your equipment to single-use characters is a textbook definition "by any means short of cheating".

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    7. One non-cheating option is to do Lowangen before Finsterkoppen. The orks will still strip you of your non-magical equipment, but at least you'll have less of it to lose. The downside, of course, is that you'll arrive in Lowangen underleveled and have more trouble with the encounters there.

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    8. I mentioned this because I recalled the Addict mentioning on several occasions he generally prefers to role-play and roll with the punches even in adverse circumstances instead of trying all alternatives to find the "best" solution in each situation - and then indeed acting accordingly.

      He also mentioned more than once, when people said he could have done something differently, that he's playing blind and doesn't want/need to explore each outcome or alternative path in a (first) playthrough.

      So that's why I found his approach to the orc encounter surprising and even more so the comment I quoted. I mean, it's not as if this game is an obscure find never documented and discussed elsewhere where it makes sense to check and describe all options. Pretty sure if he went one way and then asked "what if?", commenters could and would have been able to tell him. Either based on own experience, forum entries or walkthroughs.

      But hey, in the end he plays it whatever way he darn well pleases.

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    9. I think it's part of the review process to find out how meaningful your decisions actually are. Especially in a game where you have to decide a lot, but the outcome is mostly obscure beforehand. I'd even go as far as saying that the role-playing part and the skill system of this game are mostly kept apart, i.e. you are meant to decide on your guts and not on your statistics.

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    10. "Clearly showing decision statistics", AFAIR, did not happen until Troika put it explicitly in ToEE and then in VTMB. Since then, everyone else ran away with the system they introduced.

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    11. I too am very interested if these circumventions work, though wouldn't consider it unless I was doing a weird kind of challenging run (which wouldn't condone cheating, which this isn't, but would allow minor exploits which spawning chars certainly is).

      Yes this section seems very on-rails doesn't it? I'm particularly reminded of TVTropes ButThouMust with regards to the Gray Order.

      But then it also lets you play it out of order when you found the Stone almost immediately. Interesting!

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  2. I've got bad news for you: I think you got a fake salamander stone. You need to get the one from Ailian Siebenquell. The rogue should have led you to his house. This didn't happen for me either, but I got the information I needed in a hostel just north of the Travia bridge. I thought this was a pretty nice quest that was ruined by the ways you can easily shoot yourself in the foot.

    People recommend leaving someone outside of Lowangen with your equipment, but I rather take the experience. You keep all magical equipment after all, and you get more than enough of it back in the combats at Lowangen. Also note that the Orcs let the women keep the equipment in their torso slots, so watch it who you call uncivilized. :)

    You get a map of the city annotated with the names you mentioned at the Hesinde temple (god of knowledge).

    Lack of money won't get you stuck in Lowangen as there are ways to earn it. I think there are two failure scenarios here: not asking for "travel" with one of your three favours, and not getting the real Salamander stone back within ten days.

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    1. The third failure scenario, allegedly, is to win a battle you're not supposed to win. Narratively, the game seems to lay the groundwork for this, but I've read that it messes up some quest trigger that makes it unfinishable.

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    2. @ VK:
      (ROT 13)Qb lbh zrna gur svtug ntnvafg gur onggyrzntrf naq ebthrf orsber Ybjnatra?
      This is definitly not a failure scenario. Am I missing something?

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    3. V zrna gur onggyr jvgu zntrf nsgre yrnivat Ybjnatra. Gb zl xabjyrqtr, lbh'er abg fhccbfrq gb or noyr gb jva vg. Lbh unir gb tvir hc gur Fnynznaqre Fgbar, gura sbyybj gurz gb Oybbq Crnxf naq cvpx vg hc sebz gurve pbecfrf gurer. Juvyr lbh pna purrfr gb npghnyyl qrsrng gurz, zbfg jnyxguebhtuf fnl gung vf oernxf gur dhrfg frdhrapr naq znxrf gur tnzr hajvaanoyr. V unira'g gevrq gung zlfrys gubhtu, pbhyq or gung gurl'er jebat.

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    4. Is there any consensus on whether I have a fake stone? "Odem Arcanum" says it's magical. If I return to Ailian's house, no one answers the door. Is it possible that it might be in either location?

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    5. Vindaria has the fake stone and Ailian has the true one; I don't think that changes from game to game. Check your inventory - perhaps you have both and haven't noticed it? Since you've talked to Ailian and successfully followed Gavron, you should have gotten the correct one from one of the encounters.

      If not, it could be that sequence-breaking messed some things up. Try asking Dragan about him/stone/Ingramosch again. If you can't get back to Ailian's and don't have both stones, I'd reload a save from before you talked to him the first time and do the Dragan/Gavron quest first.

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    6. It could also be that the encounter at Ailian's that you need doesn't trigger until you do the swamp quest.

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    7. Mine triggered before the swamp quest. But I needed to ask for Ailian Siebenquell in a conversation first (this should give the info that he often works together with Gavron) - I did so at the hostel "The white house", but it might work elsewhere, too.

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    8. Indeed, this battle is not supposed to be won. The incomplete programming causes
      gur svtug gb ercrngrqyl bpphe ng obgu ybpngvbaf hagvy gur fgbar vf svanyyl unaqrq bire

      However, I wouldn't know which quest sequence can be broken.
      Lbh pna rssbegyrff hfr gur erny fnynznaqre fgbar ng gur raq bs gur tnzr.

      At most, the following might happen:
      Lbh ner pncgherq ol gur bepf va gur Oybbq Crnxf, ybbgrq, naq pnaabg ertnva gur erny Fnynznaqre Fgbar va gur zntr'f pryy.
      Gur sna cngpu gung Purg vf hfvat pbhyq pnhfr gur fnynznaqre fgbar gb or sbhaq va bar bs gur purfgf.

      All in all for Chet: Surrender is the intended action, but the player is free to act differently.

      Regarding Ailian Siebenquell, nothing more (relevant) comes to mind at the moment than what VK wrote.

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    9. I seem to remember that some encounter in the final dungeon would fail to trigger if that sequence is broken. But I also thought that Analyze would reveal the fake Stone, so my memory is clearly unreliable. I also played it without the fan patch IIRC.

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    10. But yeah, regarding orvat ybbgrq ol bepf va Oybbq Crnxf, Chet's gonna absolutely LOVE that part.

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    11. (ROT 13) Vg jvyy or n fubpx ng svefg.

      Bevtvanyyl, zbfg bs gur rdhvczrag jnf fhccbfrq gb or sbhaq va guerr fcrpvsvp purfgf.
      Hasbeghangryl, guvf vf ohttrq, naq gur nzbhag fgbyra bowrpgf va gurfr purfgf vf mreb.
      Gur sna cngpu svkrf guvf. Naq gur cbffvovyvgl gb ergevrir gur fgbyra rdhvczrag fubhyq or rkgerzryl pbzcrafngbel...

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    12. Without untangling the ROT-13s just yet, it sounds from this thread and other comments that the quest to get out of the city is not entangled with the quest to find the Salamander Stone. Thus, without having to reload an earlier save, I should be able to do the knights' quest, get free passage, and then return to Aimian's house. Does that sound right?

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    13. Yes, but don't linger in the swamp too long. If you don't recover the real stone within 10 days, it's instant game over.

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    14. ROT-13 in this thread is extremely spoiler-heavy and won't help you in your current predicament, so I advise not reading it.

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    15. I completely agree with "poster formerly known as VK".

      And the quest in the swamp should easily be completed in 1-(max.)2 days (travel time not included).

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    16. I have not played this game but reviewed the rot13. I would consider it spoily. But there's no clear consensus in that thread. It seems to depend entirely on what version you're playing (fan patch and not), and what bugs were fixed/changes made.

      I would maintain the saves just in case. I see no hard info that says "go back" at this stage.

      If you're running the fan patch it seems you are more likely to be safe.

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    17. @Titus, so I stumbled upon an old German walkthrough that actually recommends fighting that battle: https://dev.arkania.online/blog/dsa_2_lowangen/2020-11-01-86
      I'm wondering now if the resulting problem is just a bug in the English version only and the German version provides for both choices...

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  3. If only you had a spell that would allow you to check the authenticity of the Salamander Stone you got from Vindaria's house.......

    Btw, the game has a bigger surprise in store for you down the line. Theoretically, at least. Although it probably won't be as impactful for you due to not getting the Star Trail quest in Kvirasim and thus wasting a wilderness encounter that would have fleshed it out more. At least the impression I got from your write-ups is that you've all but forgotten about it.

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    1. Are you talking about the quest to get the throwing axe? I haven't forgotten about it. I assumed it would be the next phase, once I got rid of this Salamander Stone. All I've heard so far is that it's being kept in an orc fortress, and I haven't received any more intel on where that orc fortress is.

      "Odem Arcanum" says that the Salamander Stone has been "magically treated."

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    2. Analyze should tell you more (and is generally much more useful than Odem since it tells you what the enchantment is, not just if the item has one). Although perhaps I'm misremembering.

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    3. "Definitely magic, but that's all I can tell." She says the same thing if I reload from before Lowangen and use it on the Salamander Stone we had then.

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    4. Weird, I could have sworn there was a way to tell which stone is fake and which is real. Even remember trying to cheat an NPC down the line with the fake one - which meant knowing which was which.

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    5. If you hand over your Salamanderstone to the "pursuers" they will give you the stone back if it's fake.

      If the stone is the real one, then...

      gurl jvyy gnxr gur fgbar jvgu gurz. Lbh pna svaq gur fgbar ntnva ba gurve erznvaf va gur bep qhatrba.

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    6. Good hint(!) and major spoiler, Moleman.

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    7. I don't know about that. In my game, V gevrq gb purng gur zntrf: V yrsg Ybjnatra jvgu gur snxr Fnynznaqre Fgbar, juvyr bar bs zl punenpgref fgnlrq oruvaq jvgu gur erny bar. Gur zntrf gbbx gur snxr bar naq yrsg jvgubhg fnlvat nalguvat. Nygubhtu jura V gura er-ragrerq Ybjnatra naq yrsg ntnva jvgu gur erny Fgbar, V tbg gur rapbhagre jvgu gur zntrf ntnva.

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    8. V arire yrsg Ybjnatra jvgu gur jebat fgbar. I can't help with that. Ohg gur fbpbaq gvzr v cynlrq Fgne Genvy V qrsrngrq gur onggyr zntrf znal gvzrf.

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  4. Never pay more than 20 ducats for a harlot.

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  5. In addition to the comments made so far:

    It wasn't significant, but the spells Respondami and Sensibar cause the NPC companions (as the Vinsalter and Antharan) to tell the truth/reveal their feelings.

    It's badly explained who the "pursuers" are. But there are possibilities to outrun them.

    Since Toliman died:
    Prayers in the temples offer a chance to revive PCs. The deity's favor must be high. The best chances for revival are with Boron and Tsa, followed by Ingerimm.

    Crossing the "Rainbow Bridge" in the north without a donating lowers one's standing with the deity Tsa.

    The smith Roglima the Great tells a long story when asked about "dwarfes" and then "master smithes" or about "Star Trail".

    The Gangs of beggars and robbers will be attracted if the party carries a LOT of food.

    Vinsalt is the capital city of the Horasian Empire. According to Dragan Escht, the "Vinsalter" comes from there and is commonly referred to by this nickname - if I recall correctly.

    When breaking into the Exhibition Hall several skills come in handy. It's helpful to leave heroes with poor stats behind.

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    1. "but when they're all over, I sometimes realize that I enjoyed the extra challenge."

      I'm glad that the besieged city and being robbed by the orcs aren't too frustrating in the end. Well, I had my fears. Many see this as the low point of the game.

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    2. I don't think Chet should pray to Ingerimm after looting his temple.

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    3. >>I don't think Chet should pray to Ingerimm after looting his temple.

      I really can't tell if this is a rule in the game or just lore.

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    4. @sucinum
      The game tracks the party's standing with each deity in the background. Various actions change these values.

      The greater the favor, the more likely prayers are to be answered. Other (good and bad) effects of these values ​​are very rare in the game.

      Pressing both shift buttons simultaneously and typing "GODACCOUNT" displays the favors — actually a tool used by the programmers rather than a player feature.

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    5. Quite interesting feature, nowadays you would peobably get at least a hint of your standing in the temple. The priest could tell you for example, I don't see a point in making this obscure.

      Can you actually recover your standing with Ingerimm or do you just have one temple less now?

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    6. As with real-world religions, donating insane amounts of money at the temple helps.

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    7. But yeah, perhaps Chet should explore the god's blessings a bit more for documentation purposes. Some of them are interesting.

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    8. I'm curios about this, too. Compared to a tight game like Might & Magic, where you just enter any temple and buy group buffs, DSA has really a lot of lore and mechanics in the background.

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    9. Specifically for gods, I think it's the same kind of logic as in Nethack - they're fickle and bestow their favours as they please, so it's not supposed to be a deterministic transaction. But yeah, there's a lot of happening under the game's hood that only becomes noticeable in repeated playthroughs. For instance, breaking into the museum checks a lot of thief skills and may result in your party getting caught if you fail. Getting the Vinsalter to come with you involves a charisma check - and he may refuse going with you the second time as well. Lots of small variations as well - IIRC, if you refuse to let Antharon come with you and have high social skills, he may offer to pay you to accompany him.

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  6. I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but a number of character portraits in the Realms of Arkania games are traced from real-life photographs, including David Bowie.
    Details here (with many others): http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/tracing/tracing6.htm

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    1. The "random guy" who gives you citizenship looks an awful lot like Dieter Meier from Yello.

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    2. This apparently happened in the original Neverwinter Nights, too. I was confused when some of the portraits in that game changed (to rather inferior versions, many of them) after a patch. But apparently they were edited off copyrighted pictures, so they had to change.

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    3. @RandomGamer "Your citizenships. Even MORE beautiful. OHHHHH YEAAAAAHHHH."

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    4. Oh, cool, I see the examples at that link.

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    5. Such a cool link, thanks! The practice continues well into our modern age, this Legend of Grimrock portrait is clearly Zooey Deschanel: https://imgur.com/a/k3wiG60

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  7. What a beautiful, complex, supremely irritating game many commenters here enjoyed back in the day.

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    1. On one hand, I'm a bit sad I missed it "back in the day".

      On the other hand, since it was unknown in my community "back in the day", I'm certain I would have stuck at entering the dwarven temple - the puzzle was definitely unsolvable for me without internet access.

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    2. Or you would hopefully have stumbled upon the other entrance by chance. And at least in one version, but not in every one, the official walktrough was also included on the CD-ROMs.

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    3. I loved the game back in the day, and was excited to see this being played here. And at first when Chet wasn't having a good time I felt a bit in the "You're playing it wrong" camp. But looking at the criticism here, I see both why I liked it and why it might not have been as great of a game.

      This feels like a game that you had to really spend time with, use your imagination, and also not have many better options available. I think that the random encounters make it feel more like a tabletop game than e.g., something like Might and Magic (which is the superior dungeon crawler and superior CRPG). Realms of Arkania feels more like a journey, but not a very guided one and much more like a "I have no idea what's happening but something new and unpredictable happens all the time so let's roll with it!".

      It's less streamlined than something like Betrayal at Krondor. The game system has a lot of ambition at translating the tabletop ruleset (including the non-combat skills and the dialogue system) but half-succeeds and half-fumbles that ambition. But they were trying!

      I think the closest comparison that I could come up with is Wizardry 7 in the "Here's a world, go out and have fun!" way, but I found W7 even less approachable and didn't like it all that much - Star Trail has the superior presentation, whereas W7 has the far superior game system.

      BoD and Star Trail might be the closest to a pen & paper experience in a CRPG than I can think of at the time and I love it for that. I don't think it's really a great CRPG and why one would play it over something like Dark Sun or even old Gold Box D&D. Back in the day I was turned off by Shadows over Riva being set in a city and discarding the open world, but I can see now why they made that decision and agree with it.

      I don't think Chet is "playing it wrong" - every issue he points out is a real issue. But I do think that the rose tinted glasses are especially beautiful with this game, and it matches up with my personal taste in the genre. I'm glad I got to play it in the 90s. (Same for Ambermoon: I have such fond memories of the game, but I recognize now that it was very flawed and arguably worse than Amberstar.)

      Also, the music is fantastic and helps a lot with the immersion. It's one of the soundtracks I played on a CD player just by itself, and I can only recommend to anyone that likes fantasy soundtrack music to listen to it.

      Whether it's a good game or not: Star Trail is worth experiencing at least once.

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    4. (And to be clear: I'm not trying to give Chet crap here. This playthrough has been very insightful, and the writeup at the beginning of the Plunder and Lightning post was an excellent read. This game is very polarizing, but I don't think it's polarizing in the "you're doing it right, or wrong" sense, but more like "different tastes and approaches to games lead to different outcomes". I enjoy seeing the different view points and good faith discussions. I felt that this is a much better discourse than the Legend of Zelda comment section was. I foresee that whatever the final rating will be will be at least 10 points less than what some commenters would grade it - but I have no doubt that it will get a fair grade in line with other games and Chet's rating system, and I appreciate all the effort that goes into these write-ups.)

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    5. One reason the game's abstrusity didn't bother me as much when I first played it - in early 2000s - was probably that my English at the time wasn't as good. So mild bewilderment and poking around blindly was just normal RPG experience for me.

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    6. @Titus, by the time I've got a PC with a CD-ROM it was already the era of Fallout 2 and BG. The only way I could have played it earlier is some pirated floppy version.

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    7. I get Mike's perspective; certainly I feel it for games like Might and Magic that many modern players would eschew. I think I would enjoy Star Trail's open world nature more if it wasn't such a pain to get from place to place. I remember enjoying it in Blade of Destiny.

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    8. Anyway I get the rose tinted glasses - one of my favourite adventures of the 90s was Access' "Countdown" after all. And I enjoyed Drakkhen quite a lot back in the day. Drakkhen, of all things. Yes, the PC version. Replaying them after the 00s was not an enjoyable experience.

      I admire Star Trail for everything that is said here, and I am having way more fun reading about it than the times I have tried to play it (the era where abandonware became a thing, and as RandomGamer says, it became way more difficult to enjoy some 90s crpgs when one had already gone through Fallout)

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    9. For me it's something different than rose-tinted glasses: I started gaming precisely around the time of Fallout/Baldur's Gate/Diablo/M&M6-8 - and none of them appealed to me terribly much. The only games of that crop I played to completion were Planescape: Torment and Arcanum. Somehow I've always found older/more obscure/indie RPGs more enjoyable. I'd even go as far as to say that I found Star Trail more playable than Fallout due to the latter's horrible UI and overall sluggishness.

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    10. @Carlos, I absolutely get you with adventures: sometimes you just hit the same "brainwave" as the developers, and then it becomes extremely enjoyable, even if the overall opinion is that it should not be. I had absolutely the same experience with Curse of Enchantia once I finally got the interface.

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    11. @RandomGamer: If you don't know it yet, you may be interested to check out The Adventurers Guild's (TAG) 2019 playthrough and review of Curse of Enchantia. Let's just say the impressions of the author and most commenters there align(ed) more with what you say here about the overall opinion... .

      MenhirMike (of this same thread here) also recently covered Core Design's follow-up adventure (initially intended as a sequel), Universe, on and for TAG.

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    12. PS @Risingson Carlos: Coincidentally, Countdown was the very first game played on TAG after the collective took over from Trickster.

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    13. @RandomGamer oh no, please don't remind me of Curse of Enchantia. The first PC game I convinced my mom to buy for myself for my birthday, and probably the worst adventure I played for many many years. They did not even take advantage of the sound cards! Technically it was a lazy port of the Amiga, and gameplay wise it was just a guess the icon instead of a logical puzzle game. I hate it. Hate hate hate it.

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    14. I think that's the first and only game that scored outside the scale on the AdvGamer blog! It got a zero on the user interface, where normally one is the minimum.

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    15. Mike, what would you call the flaws of Ambermoon that Amberstar did not have?

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    16. > BoD and Star Trail might be the closest to a pen & paper experience in a CRPG than I can think of at the time and I love it for that

      Eh gonna call bullshit on thatm unless we're talking about a railroading GM, in which case go nuts.yed the open world is cool. But this town seems to be linearly on rails

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    17. There are quite a few permutations in Lowangen and things you can do out of order, it's just not all of them work in the player's favour:
      - Finding the escape route from the city and recovering the Stone are two unconnected quest. You can visit Lowangen and do the first quest even before going to Finsterkoppen. You can also explore the swamp (which is where Eolan sends you) before even going into Lowangen - Chet stumbled on it in this session.
      - As mentioned in the comments, there are two ways of finding Ailian and recovering the real Stone.
      - Failing to recover the real Stone within 10 days is a failure state that the game acknowledges and gives a tailored game over message.
      - You can squander your favours with Dragan by failing to ask him about travel. IIRC, this is a walking dead scenario rather than an acknowledged failure state, but the choice is there.

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    18. Also, in theory, if you're done with Lowangen and don't plan to return, you can skip Eolan's quest and just replace the two characters you've left with him.

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    19. Oh, and in principle, the whole of Lowangen can be skipped - although that would require either the meta-knowledge that Ingramosch is no longer there or just willfully ignoring the plot and stumbling upon him accidentally.

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    20. Yes, this is a very open game. I haven't tested it yet, but (heavy spoiler in rot13, best read after completion):

      Vg fubhyq or cbffvoyr gb fxvc rirelguvat rkprcg sbe gur Svafgrexbccra naq gur svany qhatrba. Fgne genvy vf n fvqr dhrfg, Ybjnatra vf bcgvbany vs lbh xabj lbh jba'g svaq lbhe pbagnpg gurer. Gung znxrf gur fjnzc bcgvbany, naq V guvax vs lbh qba'g qb Ybjnatra, gur oynpx zntr dhrfg yvar nyfb jba'g gevttre.

      Na vzcbegrq cnegl fubhyq or cbjreshy rabhtu gb whfg trg gur fgbar naq erghea vg gb gur svany qhatrba.

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    21. Yes, that's what I meant by skipping Lowangen altogether with meta-knowledge. At least the German walkthroughs suggest it's possible. But even playing organically, it's possible to have only a slightly longer sequence: Tb gb Ybjnatra svefg naq yrnea gung Vatenzbfpu vf ab ybatre gurer; rfpncr naq tb gb Svafgrexbccra, gura qverpgyl gb Gwbyzne. Guvf jnl lbh fxvc gur oynpx zntrf/Oybbq Crnxf naq, vs lbh'er cercnerq gb whfg yrnir gur gjb ubfgntrf jvgu Rbyna, pna nyfb fxvc gur fjnzc.

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    22. I played the Star Trail remake a few weeks ago. With only a dim memory of the original. I got the info where Ingramosch can be found before going to Lowangen and actually skipped the whole town. I was a bit confused when I unexpectedly finished the game without solving the Star Trail quest or visiting Lowangen. So at least in the remake this can happen without previous knowledge or cheating...

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    23. @P-Tux7 Definitely the pacing (the game is not only too long, but it has a weird difficulty curve) and the interface, moving in the 3D view isn't all that great. Amberstar was a much tighter experience and a more satisfying overall package. Ambermoon was impressive and really swung for the fences, but I think they tried too much. Still a great game and a must-play on the Amiga though! (Especially with the

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    24. Large parts of the game are optional and the order is mostly undefined… knowing that shouldn't be a problem.

      But I'm afraid the spoilers here are about to become too extensive!

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    25. @Discobutcher, you can stumble upon Ingramosch without metaknowledge - the game is open, so nothing is stopping you from just traveling around. Especially if you decide to pursue Star Trail first, before or instead of getting the Salamander Stone. But I checked NPC dialog in the original game, and there's nobody in the eastern part of the Valley that would direct you to Tjolmar. The only ones that do are in Lowangen or around Thasch (southwest of the map).

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    26. @RandomGamer
      I understand. Anyway, I wrote "hopefully ... stumbled" and mentioned a possible chance of getting the (not error-free; that's a whole other story) walkthrough book along with the game.

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  8. I mis-remembered yet another thing, it seems. I was pretty sure what orcs also take the party's gold, making it meaningless to steal it in the Dwarven Pit.

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  9. The Order of the Grey Staves (or Wands) is a combat-oriented order associated with the Grey Guild of Magic. The Academy of Deformations also belongs to the Grey Guild, while the Hall of Power is one of the Black Guild's academies. (In Aventuria, black mages aren't generally evil, many of them merely pursue knowledge at any cost and are unwilling to submit themselves to the restrictions of other guilds, especially the White Guild, about what is permissible and what isn't.)

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  10. Was wondering about the entry's title - why "Siege Perilous" and not e.g. "Perilous Siege"? Learned something new. Should have guessed our host's Arthurian connection would manifest itself again sometime.

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  11. Regarding the pursuers: they can be annoying. But maybe you have some spell to make it harder for them to follow you?

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  12. Playing this and Arena simultaneously must be an interesting experience...

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  13. Regarding loss of equipment, I'd still recommend installing the fan patch (regarding you comment on the manual, I guess you haven't listened to me regarding this ;-) in order to prevent another equipment loss triggered by a bug.
    Link to patch
    https://www.crystals-dsa-foren.de/showthread.php?tid=5183
    Scroll down to entry from 26th for newest version.

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  14. Btw, speaking of this: "Since there's nothing in the game to tell us what neighborhood we're in, I don't know why the NPCs keep telling us the names of neighborhoods."

    One of the generic responses you get from NPCs when you ask about Lowangen gives you the rundown of the districts (German quote since I couldn't easily find an English one): "Lowangen besteht eigentlich aus drei Städten: Im Norden gibt es die Bunte Flucht, Eydal - im Süden - war früher ein kleines Dorf, alles, was auf der Insel liegt, gehört zur Altstadt von Lowangen."

    Allegedly, you also get a map of the city when you ask the priestess of Hesinde about Lowangen, but I don't know whether it has the districts named.

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    1. When you're finished with the game, if you're curious, this page has all the NPC dialogs in German: https://www.kunar.eu/nlt/schweif.htm

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