All right, let's give this a try, based on this suggestion by Gnoman. Here's where we can talk about the next six games on the list. This type of entry will not recur if people post spoilers, so please don't do that. What's allowed here are:
- Opinions about the game's RPG status
- Tips for emulating the game
- Known bugs and pitfalls
- Tips for character creation
- Trivia
- Sources of information about the game from around the web
There are no hard rules otherwise, but let me encourage you to primarily comment in this forum if you already know something about a game from personal experience and would like to share it. I don't think it would be a good use of any commenter's time to try to act as my unofficial assistant and to load up the comments section with lots of pre-game research. I have my own process for that, which I enjoy, and I'm not looking to farm it out.
One major exception would be foreign language sources that are in formats not easily translatable. I am very grateful to past commenters who have assisted with things like manual translations. This will allow us to get a head start on that kind of process.
Here are the next six games:
- Warriors of Legend (USA, 1993, DOS, Synergistic): This is the last title to use the World Builder engine that the company debuted in War in Middle Earth (1988) and used in the two Excalibur games, pluse Conan: The Cimmerian (1991). At first glance, it seems to be a more complex game than Conan, with four characters.
- Talisman (UK, 1985, ZX Spectrum, SLUG): I'm skeptical of the game's RPG status, but a couple of sources list it as such. It's based on the popular Games Workshop board game of the same name.
- Hired Guns (UK, 1993, DOS, DMA): Lots of opinions already that it's not an RPG, but both MobyGames and Wikipedia call it such, so it at least gets a BRIEF.
- Realms of Darkness (USA, 1987, Apple II, SSI): The last few times I tried this game, I couldn't get it to work, but I have lots of feedback on how to solve those problems, and I'm ready to try again.
- Pathways into Darkness (USA, 1993, Macintosh, Bungie): Looks like a first-person shooter to me, but I guess maybe it has weapon skills that increase? Again, worth at least a BRIEF.
- Sandor II (Germany, 1990, Atari ST): An early Motelsoft game that I missed on the first pass, it seems to combine top-down outdoor exploration with first-person dungeon exploration.
If all goes well, we'll have another of these entries when Sandor II makes it to the "current" list.
I vote for skipping Talisman. The original board game is a roll-and-move and this Spectrum version looks like a simplified take on it.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's even less than what HeroQuest was (which of course had the advantage of coming out 6 years later on 16-Bit hardware). MobyGames says:
Delete> The player can move left or right, occasionally he will need to select which location he moves into (north, south, etc). He searches of different things and occasionally fights with monsters. Fights are very random: in battle, pressing any key will add a random value, the winning is the greater number.
Which sounds like one of those games that get a paragraph in an article with 3 other games that are also rejected, if at all.
https://www.atarilegend.com/games/talisman
Deletea french Talisman from 1988, this one Non-Commercial.
Agreed. Although Talisman directly and deliberately emulates the experience of a D&D type game, it's not an rpg. Later versions of the board game will add more to it and get closer, to an rpg but those are irrelevant to the Spectrum version.
Delete(There is something to be said about Games Workshop moving in early into the computer games space, but not for this blog!)
I don't know about this Spectrum version, never played it, but the boardgame has proper character development that fully satisfies Chet's four criteria.
DeleteIs that true of the original edition VK? I know the expansions (1986 onwards) had some character development and the third edition (1994) introduced an experience mechanic, but I've never played the original.
DeleteYou can download the original editions rules here: https://www.talismanisland.com/rules.htm
DeleteThe mechanic where you exchange defeated enemies for strength points is already there (page 3, "Gaining strength").
If we go by Chet's three rules for cRPGs (up until 2022) then Talisman qualifies, albeit barely: you have characters with different values in attributes, you can improve said attributes beyond just using equipment, and combat results are based on intrinsic values. That being said, all three of those rules are very basic...while I would describe Talisman as an "RPG-adjacent" board game I wouldn't call it an RPG in its own right.
DeleteIt's a board game with character development. There's no choice to really make except which direction to walk when you roll the dice and see what space you land on.
DeleteSave yourself and skip it.
Talisman was originally a multiplayer board game. I agree with the assessment that it technically meets your most basic criteria (barely). It's a game we had alot of fun with as D&D players when we only had a few hours. It's highly dependent on dice rolls to land on specific squares to get specific encounters depending on what class you choose (or get assigned randomly). So if you want to spend a few hours checking it out then it's a solid part of table top gaming history, but you wouldn't be missing out on computer gaming RPG lore if you skipped it.
DeleteAs much as I love the boardgame, I have to concur that it's not an RPG. It does have the trappings - Strength and Spirit scores that are raised and lowered as the game progresses, and even a rudimentary version of experience points, as defeating enough foes increases your Strength. But it's not a CRPG. As a board game adaptation it wouldn't take long to play through and get a feel for though.
DeleteI have to laugh at a game of Talisman being considered brief. For a long time it was our group’s day-after-new-years game. For the entire day. With all 6 expansions, we were lucky to be finished by dark. The hangovers didn’t help, but it was big game. Simple enough to play while hung over, but man, it took a while.
DeletePathways into Darkness is more of an adventure FPS game than an RPG, only your HP grows if i´m not mistaken
ReplyDeleteMany sources, including contemporary reviews, put it in the "role playing game" category. Probably too many to not at least give it closer examination.
DeleteHP growth is connected to fixed points you get from collecting certain objects, so no exp from killing monsters.
DeleteYou would be mistaken, weapons have stats that increase as you use them. Pretty well putting it on par with a lot of other dungeon crawlers from the time.
Delete+1 for giving Hired Huns at least a BRIEF. I believe it'll be rejected for "Lack of Character development", but I also think it's RPG-adjacent enough to at least discuss the inspiration that it did take from the genre, and also probably compare it to 1993's Space Hulk which is kinda in the same "RPG-adjacent but really not" space.
ReplyDeleteHired Huns sounds like it could either be a CRPG with an interesting setting we haven't seen yet or a British WWII era insult ;-).
DeleteAgreed. Although Hired Guns isn't an rpg, it is interesting from the perspective of what it's not, as it's almost a genre in itself: a multiplayer first person shooter using dungeon blobber "language". It's worth a brief, certainly.
DeleteI’d say it’s a successor to captives but with the focus on combat. It’s like this is the direction blobbers could have gone in but thankfully didn’t. Definitely an interesting offshoot to do a brief on.
DeleteI remember Hired Guns much more as a local 4 player action game with a first person view. Then some ways to try and make it playable for one person.
DeleteIt is absolutely playable for one person. I completed it alone a few years ago (having never played it properly in the nineties). Despite a lot of awkward elements, I kind of fell in love with the game and it's one of those games I'm in retrospect really glad to have completed. Like Ultima Underworld (which annoyed and delighted me in many of the same ways).
DeleteIt isn't an RPG, but if you enjoy blobbers it's one of the most interesting ones around, with a lot of very neat features and some surprisingly complex level design. I would love to read RPGAddict's take on it, so I hope it gets a brief if nothing else.
Yeah, it looks like it's a multiplayer-focused game, but it's a great in single-player mode. I only played multi-player a handful of times back in the day, and never managed to play it with four people, but in two player mode, it was tremendous. The deathmatch aspect didn't work so well, but as a co-op game it was tremendous - like a kind of cross between Aliens and an Iain M Banks novel.
DeleteI think it's probably one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played, with the wind howling and thunder crashing, and the twilight skies with the outlines of distant structures on the horizon. One of the things I really loved about it was that levels felt huge and quite organic, in that there wasn't the sense you normally get in blobbers of filling in the map grid. There were always areas that you couldn't quite get to, or which seemed to be separate from the critical path through the level, so they felt like real places rather than maps designed on graph paper.
It's a very good game. I spent many hours in the 90's playing it co-op with a friend.
DeleteWe couldn't decide if we wanted Captive II or Hired Guns, so in the end we got both. I bought Captive II (Amiga) and he bought Hired Guns (DOS). He got the better end of the deal!
Re Sandor II: bits of the manual / backstory in German are worded in a way that understanding a machine translation might be challenging, so maybe let us know if that's the case.
ReplyDeleteTo give one example I'm pretty sure will be confusing: "Kotalan zu zeigen wo der Bartel den Most holt." which would translate literally as "show Kotalan where the Bartel gets the must [fruit juice or cider]". "Wissen, wo der Barthel den Most holt" is an old expression meaning to know well how to do things, to know every trick in the book.
A question on your summaries of the upcoming games: Is the platform mentioned the one you understand is (one of) the original one(s), the one you plan on playing (either for that reason or due to emulation being the easiest for you) or the only one you're aware of at this stage?
ReplyDeleteIn other words, is it worth mentioning e.g. that Hired Guns was released for the Amiga or Realms of Darkness also published on the C64 - which could give you more options when it comes to finding working versions or avoiding bugs or emulation issues?
I'm not sure if the one platform mentioned under 'Released' on mobygames (at the top, not the 'Released by date (by platform)' below it) is always supposed to be the (or one of the) original one(s) or just one of the earliest. For Hired Guns it says DOS there, while e.g. HOL or TCRF give Amiga as original and DOS as a port. [Don"t know if this is getting already too much into your own pre-game research, wanted to explain the general question with an example.]
Yes, I believe that HG was an Amiga original, although the DOS version came very soon after.
DeleteThe version I list is the version that I intend to play. That can be a subject of discussion, too, but as everyone probably knows by now:
Delete-Music doesn't interest me, so the fact that one platform has better music won't change the decision at all.
-I will generally favor an easier emulation experience to slightly better graphics.
By 1994 DOS has started to reach parity or outright superiority with any other platform anyway, due to good video and sound cards becoming common in consumer level machines.
DeleteThe exceptions tend to be "lazy porting" rather than "the PC couldn't handle it" by then.
I would say that the two platforms, even by now, tend to have different music and sound effects, since Amiga games tended to have .mod files for music, and DOS would have something that could adapt to your sound card. (or CD audio) Which isn't set in stone of course, but I do note that every DOS game I've played that used .mod for music was original to DOS for some reason.
DeleteStar Control 2 getting the Amiga community to make music for it despite the game not releasing on said platform will always stand out as one of the most audacious coups for me - not least of all because it worked, but because it worked so well. Toys for Bob used the Orz music in their pre-game logos for 10 years! You'll find 2000s' kids in the comments on YouTube saying "So that's where that scary clown music came from!" I'd say they should sign on those guys for the sequel, but maybe they should instead solicit some more amateurs.
DeleteTalisman has a pretty funny history.
ReplyDeleteIn 1982, Helmut "Woof" Watson and Julian Fuller, two unemployed friends, created a wargaming magazine ("Miniature Wargames") using the money from an acquaintance: Stanley Gee. Then they realized there was an empty shop space below their office, so they bought it with Gee's money and opened a wargame shop, where they also sold video games. Then they realized video games sold well but were low-quality, so with Gee's money they founded Red Shift to make video game.
Red Shift is now known for being where Julian Gollop published his first game, but it was not its first success. In 1983, Woof went to meet Ian Livingstone to pitch his own wargame/boardgame. Livingstone was unimpressed by the boardgames, but very impressed by computer games Watson had showed. And so instead of GW publishing Woof's games, Woof published GW's game through Red Shift. The first game was Apocalypse and it was a huge success. It probably helped that Angus Ryall, staffer at GW, was also the wargame expert of Crash Magazine, and his view in Crash was that all British wargames sucked except Apocalypse. In any case, GW was happy to give Red Shift another project: Battlecars.
Money started pouring in Red Shift thanks to Apocalypse and later in 1984 Gollop's Rebelstar Raiders. When Watson & Fuller went to Gee to talk being better paid and sharing a bit the wealth, Gee told them that Red Shift's money was basically his money - so Watson & Fuller left to found a cooperative ("no boss!") called SLUG. What Gee did not anticipate was that Watson was the one with the GW relationship, not "Red Shift" - so SLUG started with a project called Battlecars which was already, what do you know, half-finished - and they also received a deal to publish Talisman on top of that.
Alas, Games Workshop reckoned that publishing video game was getting capital intensive, and not playing on their strengths, so they stopped getting directly involved in video games in late 1985 or early 1986. In any case, I like this story.
I appreciate the detail in this story, thank you
DeleteCurious about Sandor II, very curious about your take on Hired Guns (its credits show an interesting pedigree in the people involved), and I think the Bungie game is interesting on how Bungie shaped FPS but not sure about the CRPG credentials.
ReplyDeleteI'll echo those who say Talisman shouldn't count. The current iterations (especially the Talisman Origins single player video game) are probably worth considering, but the version you're considering isn't, IMO.
ReplyDeleteNice to see ‘Pathways Into Darkness’ on your list! I’ve played that game a bunch over the years, since first coming across it way back in the mid-90’s. I can offer you some info about it, and about the available versions. And I can answer questions if needed.
ReplyDeleteI’d describe PiD as a hybrid of an FPS and RPG. It mixes properties of both, but doesn’t include the complete features of either. The result is an interesting and unique game style, I would say. But it’s not a pure RPG, nor a pure FPS. It’s something rather different. That being said, the game does match some of your definitions of a CRPG, albeit it lightly.
There are two different sorts of player stats in PiD: maximum health, and weapon proficiency. The second one is more relevant here.
When you acquire new weapons, you start off as a complete novice. Your attacks will be weak and inaccurate. But you can level up your skill with each weapon through use, with multiple levels available for each weapon. That might not sound like much, but it’s actually quite critical. You need to decide where and when to use each weapon, to make efficient use of your limited resources. Level up all your powerful weapons early, and you won’t have easy ammunition for when you really need them (gaining ammo takes time, which is limited). Fail to level up enough, and the weapons won’t be strong enough. It ends up being a balancing act, and each player has their own style of playing. What you level up/use and when is very much down to player choice, and there’s no one obvious way of doing things.
Maximum health is a stat too, although that’s less interesting from your perspective. It’s increased by collecting treasure items. Now, these are hidden out of the way, and some require puzzle solving, so the increases do occur through player agency and activity. But it doesn’t really match your requirements. You can heal at any time, too, but it’s dangerous, and you can only do that a fixed number of times throughout the game. So there’s player agency there too, in a limited way. But again, that doesn't match your requirements.
In terms of other mechanics, there are: non-trivial NPC conversations (absolutely required for puzzle solving), non-trivial inventory management (with items that interact with each other, sometimes in non-obvious ways), a host of puzzles (environmental, enemy-based, inventory-based, etc.), a primary quest with a secondary quest (and arguably at least one sidequest), multiple endings, and so on. There’s also a hard time-limit, which keeps things interesting.
Given all this, I’d say the game is at least worth a BRIEF, and perhaps more. I’d suggest you keep playing until you figure out the yellow crystal, at a minimum, and maybe until you fight The Big Blue Meanie, as a good demonstration of what this engine does (and that’s where the story starts to shine).
In terms of versions, the original Mac game plays just fine under emulation, from what I remember. SheepShaver does it proud. There’s also a port to OS X from 2013 (updated 2021), available at the Apple Store. That port was officially sanctioned by Bungie, and it’s good.
A port was also made a few years ago to the Marathon engine. This allows the game to be played on any modern system, but some changes were necessarily made for the different engine. Not least, the gameplay window is rather different. Although I gather the gameplay otherwise is fairly accurate. I don’t have direct experience with it, but you can find it here:
https://simplici7y.com/items/aleph-one-pathways-into-darkness/
Lastly, if you want any information about the game at all, go here. This has more than you’d ever need!
http://pid.bungie.org/
I almost forgot! This game plays with a deliberately slow walking speed, to enhance the atmosphere. It works very nicely, but it can take some getting used to, and can be frustrating if you have very limited time for playing. However, there's a way to change that if you're playing the original game. Hold down control and type: turbo. That speeds the whole experience up!
DeleteIt’s not the core experience Bungie were going for, but they included that option in there for good reason!
I would think Chet wouldn't be playing the Marathon engine mod. Game logic aside, it isn't the original nor an actual port, it's a mod in a different game engine. As you note, it moves away from the menus that the original had. I can see from the screenshot that it turns dialog into something you do via the console, which I can see harming the experience somewhat. That's not getting into all the menu interactions which Marathon just wasn't built for, owing to it having a much more simplified inventory system.
DeleteI'm intrigued enough to want to play it myself now. Thank you Kass for all the information.
DeleteOh, you should definitely try it, fireball! I think it’s a really interesting game, and a great experience. It’s a pity it isn’t better known, to be honest.
DeleteJust be aware that it can take a bit of getting used to, especially the movement, which is so different from modern titles (where everyone zips around everywhere). It also gets pretty tough at points, both in the puzzles and in the fighting. You’re unlikely to win first time through, too. But the game is really rewarding if you persist with it, I think!
And yes, MorpheusKitami, I’d hope Chet would play the original, rather than the Marathon mod. That feels in keeping with the theme of the blog, amongst other things! Not having the menu-based scheme would definitely change the experience. I hadn’t clocked the NPC dialogues happening in the console, too. That *really* changes things. Not only does it lose you a bunch of lovely sprite art, but I could imagine it would make conversations a little confusing. Seeing *who* you’re talking to is important, since visual cues are present in the sprites. They let you know a character’s allegiance before you even start talking to them!
So yes, while the Marathon mod is a really very impressive feat, I’d suggest people try to play the original, if they can!
I've seen PiD described as survival horror by some because of the early game, but I'd say you really just have to get used to the knife until you reach a certain point. Oh, and the time limit isn't too bad, I remember having plenty of time to complete the mission.
DeleteOh, getting back to emulation, the game seems to work fine under any OS released after it that you can emulate in SheepShaver. Heck, back when I played it on my blog a while ago, I used Basilisk II and used some OS from 7 to 7.6 to play it and had no trouble. That's a level of just works that some games from around this time don't have.
I am all for REALMS OF DARKNESS. I played the C64 version in 2019, and I think it may reach 35 on the GIMLET.
ReplyDeleteThe Apple version was unplayable: it froze as soon as a combat starts.
The C64 version requires to "tick" one option in a menu of the emulator... I forgot which one exactly... NTSC, maybe ? I will check it.
Yes, the version finally made playable in 2004 needed the emulator set to NSTC - its stated on this page on GB64 (describing the process to produce said version) as well as this thread on Lemon64 (linked in a footnote in your coverage of and documentation on the game on StrategyWiki).
DeleteAs mentioned when we first discussed this here on the blog, there is also a newer (2021) 'proper' version of the original game which runs on PAL as intended, too (so out of the box on VICE with no further settings needed as I confirmed myself back when I tested it) and does not need the 'PageUp' trick to bypass an error message. It's e.g. briefly described and linked at the end of the Lemon64 thread.
PS: It also has the advantage of having all the documentation for the game put together in one place.
DeleteAll the documentation, including the "official spoiler book", is also available at Mocagh.org .
Delete