Friday, October 4, 2024

Betrayal a Bit North of Krondor

 
Locklear name-drops half the title.
      
All right, in previous entries, we had our fun, but now it's time to get to Krondor. The Moredhel is up to something and Prince Arutha needs to know about it. 
   
I saved the last game in the village of Hawk's Hollow. I guess I didn't explore the buildings because the encounters are new to me this time. A man named Lucan invites us into his house and tries to pick Locklear's pocket, but Locklear catches him and forces him to teach the trio about picking locks, which increases our abilities. A paranoid resident demands to examine our hands before telling us to be alert for scrolls. It's late, so we stay at the Dusty Dwarf Inn, which otherwise has the usual services. After this night, we're finally back to full health and stamina.
    
We head west along the main road, looking for the road south that will lead us to Krondor. We're soon attacked by two Moredhel warriors, who we dispatch while taking a little damage.
         
And our statistics improve!
      
Further along, we come to a shop where Locklear mistakes the pieces of armor hanging from the rafters for body parts. We all (I assume) have a good laugh at his expense. It turns out to be a repair shop run by a gnome named Joseph the Animal. I'm not sure what use he is. He won't repair weapons, and we're capable of getting armor to around 85% on our own. Even though we're doing pretty well with money these days, we leave without getting any help.
      
Locklear is kind of an idiot.
      
A few observations about travel as we move on:
    
  • Nighttime comes fast, especially if you're frequently pausing to, say, write blog notes.
  • It would be nice if the game didn't decide on its own to spin me around so often.
  • There's something off about the speed of turning or the visual feedback associated with turning. I routinely turn what appears from the view window to be 90 degrees but which registers on the compass as only half that.
  • The button that has you automatically follow the main road is useful, but I worry it discourages exploration, like most "fast travel" systems.
  • It's a lot faster and easier to move in the map view, but you miss things.
           
Cruising along using the automap.
       
We next encounter the Temple of Killian on the north side of the road. Like I guess all temples, it has a teleporter. We can take it to the only other temple we've visited, the Temple of Ishap, which would cost 85 sovereigns. That seems like a lot to go up the road, but I like the idea of having to pay for fast travel in general.
    
Three more Moredhel attack before we come to the southern turn, where we have to carefully navigate a trap. Locklear concludes from the complexity of the trap that Delekhan, the Moredhel general, is mobilizing spies already placed within the kingdom (rather than simply following us from the north). Gorath objects that word of his escape could only have traveled as fast as we have, to which Owyn suggests the possibility that Delekhan is using "mind speech" to communicate over long distances. Gorath replies that Owyn's hypothesis would fit with what he heard about some of the magicians surrounding Delekhan, including one named Nago.
    
I'm mostly able to ignore the graphics, but every so often it hits me all over again how ridiculous Owyn looks.
      
The Bitter Sea appears to our west as we continue south. We soon find yet another Moredhel box: "The light one breaks but never falls. His brother falls but never breaks." I figure this out partly by the riddle and partly by the available letters. (DAY) breaks but never falls and (NIGHT) falls but never breaks. It's cute. I've never heard it before, but I guess it's an old one, as plenty of web sites offer it with no reference to Krondor. The chest has a "Flamecast" scroll, 57 royals, and a torch.
      
Ocean in view. Oh, the joy.
     
On the way southeast, we encounter:
   
  • A party of three Moredhel.
  • A guy named Chanty living in a house alone. Although he talks with us at first, he becomes suspicious, slams the door, and won't answer it again.
  • An empty house
  • Another party of three Moredhel. We get the jump on them, and Owyn softens them up with "Flamecast."
  • Another Moredhel chest: "A precious gift, this, yet it has no end or beginning, and in the middle, nothing." I want it to be DONUT, but it only has four letters. (RING), clearly. It has a couple of shells and 28 royals.
  • "Though easy to spot, when allowed to plume, it is hard to see, when held in a room." I get it (SMOKE) mostly from the letters. 
    
We come to the town of Questor's View just as night is falling. I'm hoping for an inn, as we're pretty beat up again, and it fortunately has one: Babon's Hostel. I pay for some food and drink and we talk to some non-consequential NPCs before going to bed. The next morning, we explore the rest of the town. A resident gives us some rations for the road, and we decline to pay a sword trainer's fee of 75 sovereigns.
     
He's talking about a bird. This is somehow the only screenshot I took between the Temple of Killian and Questor's View. Either something went wrong with my CTRL key or I just got really immersed in the game.
     
Roads go north and south from Questor's View. The north road will take us back up to our starting point or let us reach Krondor through a clockwise trip through Eggley and Tanneurs. An NPC had previously suggested we avoid this road, but Locklear had also suspected that a psychic named Devon in Eggley might be the one communicating with the Moredhel general through mind magic. It's a tough call, but I decide to head directly south. In some later chapter, I'll exhaustively explore everything there is to do. For now, I want to get on with the plot.
      
Not all NPCs are useful.
     
We get attacked again by Moredhel. They tend to have archers these days, which adds a new challenge--one I usually negate with Owyn's "Despair Thy Eyes" spell. A farmer named Rowe meets us on the road and tells us of a terrible storm on its way; he offers to let us wait it out in his barn, though without Gorath ("I don't take in elves"). Locklear negotiates a rate of 10 gold pieces plus milking his cows in the morning. I'm annoyed by the offer, and the game hasn't shown any signs of having a weather system so far, so I decline. No inclement weather appears as we head south, even when we rest for a couple of days, so he was either trying to scam us or kill us. 
        
This is exactly how I pictured it in the book.
       
After another battle, we reach the city of Sarth, a menu fortress that I remember from Silverthorn. Unfortunately, the place offers no services, only a library where we can read several books that offer hints as to the mechanics of the game. There's no one to talk with in the fortress, but on the way out of town, we run into Brother Marc tending a field. He offers to train Owyn in magic for 50 sovereigns, which we accept. He also confirms there is no storm in the forecast, and he says that Rowe has been acting weird since his wife died. Marc also says he's been getting "dream sendings" with Gorath's face from an unknown source that must be close by.
    
The guy playing Brother Marc looks exactly like Dave Barry.
      
We are agonizingly close to Krondor, but I feel now like I'm meant to solve this "dream sending" quest, so we reluctantly turn around and head back north. On the way, we encounter Rowe again but have no new dialogue options. Now I'm curious what he's all about, so I accept his offer. He tells us his barn is pretty far to the south. "Knock on the door and my wife will fix you up." We already know his wife is dead, and his barn is now in the opposite direction that I want to travel. After some more dithering, I decide to see this encounter through and then reach Eggley by looping around from the south rather than continuing north.
    
On the way, we find a Moredhel chest (I forgot to write down the riddle) with 32 sovereigns, a shell, a suit of armor in near perfect condition, and an Amulet of the Upright Man, which adds 12% to my "Lockpick" skill. We stop at the Temple of Sung after that and unlock another teleporter. The priests are unable to sleep because of the "dream sending," which they think is "very close by."
         
My growing fast-travel options.
      
As we move south, we keep getting attacked by pirates, who Marc had warned us recently landed on the coast. Eventually, we reach Rowe's barn. As we enter, four Moredhel assassins apparate in front of our very eyes. One of them is a sorcerer, Nago, the very "dream sender" that Gorath told us about. 
      
It sounds like the other chapters' bosses will be anti-climactic.
         
There's no way to avoid surprise in the ensuing battle, which features three warriors and a mage who relentlessly blasts Owyn with "Flamecast" spells. After dying the first time, I buff with what limited potions I have and try again, this time concentrating on the mage first. I'm able to win, but with a lot of damage. The reward is 50 sovereigns, a two-handed broadsword, five "icers" that let you magically treat blades to do ice damage, and a note suggesting that the Moredhel have been placing fake notes concerning an attack to the south of Tanneurs in various chests.
 
I prepare to blind Nago.
            
In the aftermath, the party discusses whether Rowe had anything to do with the attack. "I think that bastard farmer set us up," Locklear opines. "He'd best have been paid well for his betrayal." The betrayal has happened! In the first chapter!
       
Funny how I haven't noticed anything while camping at night.
        
If Nago was the "dream sender," that means that the information I got about him being in Eggley were false or, more likely, I confused two different things. Just to be sure, I head back to the Temple of Sung. The priests confirm that the dreams have stopped. When the high priest credits this to the power of prayer, Gorath and Owyn bristle and inform the priest that in fact we solved the problem. As a reward, the priest teaches Owyn . . . well, I'm not sure. When I check my spells, he has "Gift of Sung" and "Hocho's Haven," neither of which I remember having before. Either he taught both or I picked up one somewhere else. Obviously, the "Gift of Sung" makes the most sense. 
    
Now able to smell Krondor, we run south and blunder into three more pirates, then two more, then three pirates and two Moredhel. I don't know why these pirates are involved, but they really don't want us to reach Krondor. I have plenty of rations, so I'm resting liberally between battles to restore health and stamina. We're able to surprise them in the last battle, fortunately, and I have Owyn start with a full-powered "Flamecast," which kills one of them right away and damages three others. Fortunately, they don't reach us during their turn that round, and I'm able to hit them with "Flamecast" a second time.
       
"Flamecast" damages everyone within two squares, so if I hit that center guy, it should damage everyone except the guy to the far right.
        
Finally, we reach the final approach to the city. Although the game suggests that there might be more assassins ahead, we're able to reach it without another battle. 
       
It's odd how I'm narrating this game in the present tense but the game insists on using the past tense.
     
Before heading to the palace, we unload some of our excess items in shops and visit the Rainbow Parrot Inn. Finally, we go to enter the palace and find that we can't because the gate mechanism is broken. Even worse, the guard that we're able to talk to through the broken portcullis refuses to go fetch anyone who will be helpful. Prince Arutha is in a meeting with Pug and Makala. Seigneur James is missing. The guard says the only way to enter is to go through the sewers beneath the city. This seems awfully contrived.
        
No. I'm ready to go back and climb over the fence or wait until the prince's meeting with Pug is over. It's not going to last multiple days, is it?
        
No sooner have we entered the sewers than a boy named Limm (who the gate guard mentioned) appears and warns us against walking the "thieves' road." When he understands we're friends with people he knows, he offers to sell us lockpicks for 25 gold pieces. I have several sets, though, so I decline.
  
Hugging the right wall, it's a while before we reach the next encounter--a chest that blows up in our faces when we try to open it. It damages us so badly that I reload rather than trying to recover from it. I can't remember how to search for traps, or if indeed there's even a way to choose to search for them, but in investigating my new spells, I discover that "Scent of Sarig" allows you to see trapped chests for 12 hours. It works, and we're able to deactivate it, earning 21 sovereigns and 88 royals.
       
Some thieves guard a ladder.
     
After several battles with groups of 2 or 3 thieves, we come to a ladder heading up. We try to take it, but the grate at the top is locked and I can't pick it. This happens in a couple more places.
       
Maybe I should have gotten more training.
     
A battle with three black-clad figures leaves us badly wounded. Shortly afterwards, we meet Seigneur James, a main character from the novels. Originally a street thief known as "Jimmy the Hand," he moves up in the world after he helps Prince Arutha on a few missions. He's part of the party who finds the Silverthorn in the second book, and one sequence from that novel is one of the better narratives I've read told from a thief's point of view. In the following dialogue, Locklear mentions that the group of black-clad figures were "Nighthawks," an assassin's guild, but James says that they're impostors: "Someone has been trying to convince Prince Arutha that the Guild of Death has reestablished operations here in Krondor," possibly to incite the city guard to clear the thieves out of the sewers. Locklear fills James in on our adventures and quest, and James gives us a key to the grates.
     
Your "bump of trouble"?
      
The key doesn't fit the first grate we try it on, so we have to keep exploring. We fight a few more thief battles (it would have been nice if Jimmy had spread the word that we were cool) before we finally find the "correct" ladder and head up to the palace.
      
Prince Arutha and Pug greet the weary trio.
       
Chapter 1 ends with the characters complaining about their noxious experience in the sewers as they blunder into Prince Arutha and Pug. After an exchange of pleasantries, Locklear explains to the prince what we've discovered about the Moredhel and their activities. In a lightly-animated sequence, Gorath drops his hood to the prince's astonishment. Before Locklear can explain, a Moredhel assassin appears in the chamber and fires an arrow, which Pug destroys in-flight with a fireball. The fireball continues past the arrow and slays the assassin, and suddenly we're in Chapter 2: "Shadow of the Nighthawks."
       
The exciting end to the first chapter.
         
At the end of the first chapter, I find myself liking the game but not quite understanding why it's so many commenters' favorite. The story and text are good, sure, but the way that they're narrated in the past tense enhances the perception that the player is just ferrying the characters between plot points rather than actively participating in the story's development. The lack of options during dialogues and encounters also feeds this perception. It annoyed me, for instance, that I couldn't avoid the obvious ambush even though I, as a player, figured it out long before I entered the barn. The combat system is fine, but only fine, and the equipment system feels a little under-developed.
   
Perhaps the best part of the game is the open game world. I took advantage of part of it, but I certainly could have explored more, earned more money, perhaps found better gear, paid for more training, and earned more experience. Since I have a saved game from the bottom of the ladder: Do you think I've accomplished enough for Chapter 1, or should I head back outside and see what adventures await in some of the eastern cities?
     
Time so far: 13 hours  

78 comments:

  1. Depends on what you want. If playing to minmax, definitely explore more. If 'roleplaying', what you did is good enough. You could also split the difference and explore the Eggley/ Tanneurs path to Krondor, which is a viable alternate path that avoids the tough Nago fight.

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  2. It could be that such a rich story and the feeling of playing a book was enough to have players thinking it was exceptional in 1993. Is it a plus that the story is told to you and not relaying on the players imagination to fill out the parts not told or depicted?

    And maybe it´s just a case of rose tinted nostalgiaglasses

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    1. It could be that it's so good despite being story focused, with solid game mechanics. It has good exploration, decent combat, character advancement and items, and excellent puzzles.
      And even I who read lots of books and never play a game "for the story" thought the writing in the game was pretty good.
      So an all round solid game.

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    2. Thanks, never played it so I was only speculating. But it sounds from you that it is a time well spend and that the game has more to offer than a good framing so I understand why it sticka out among rpgs at the same time and I could really understand why people have good remissans about it.

      This blogplaytrough and the comments make me wanna play it

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    3. No question that the writing quality is superior. And I agree that although some of the other mechanics are under-developed, it hasn't done anything awful (except the NPC portraits).

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  3. Damn, I always headed straight to Krondor every time I tried to play this game (and then had great troubles with later chapters - I think my party was constantly underleveled as a result).

    As to the questions why it's many's favourite... It might be that for many it was their first, or one of the first RPGs, like for me? In 90's computer user base expanded greatly.

    Also, I think Krondor was one of the first, hm, more "user-friendly" RPGs out there. I remember trying to play Bard's Tale, Gold Box, Might & Magic and Ultima in my childhood, but I could never understand what was happening in them, and endless labyrinths with same textures everywhere gave me very wrong impression of the genre. Also, I usually got slaughtered in the very first battle - those game are NOT forgiving to a complete novice.

    To be fair, neither is Krondor - I remember replaying the battles on the way to Krondor many, many times before I could reach the end of the first chapter (sewers especially were BRUTAL), but Krondor, at least, had battle UI I could understand intuitively, despite not knowing enough English and not owning any manuals which could explain it to me anyway.

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    1. > As to the questions why it's many's favourite... It might be that for many it was their first, or one of the first RPGs, like for me?

      It was not my first RPG by far (I got to it in the late 90es), but it was very memorable to me as well for some reason, even compared to Fallout 2/BG, which I believe I played by that time. Spent more time with it then I expected, largely because very good exploration/combat combo.

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    2. Fair enough. I agree that the game has a certain enjoyable simplicity.

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  4. Credit where credit's due, the location screenshots of Sarth and Krondor are looking gorgeous.

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  5. Only tangentially related, but the riddles reminded me of this: On a whiteboard in one of my classroom buildings, someone has written "I point with no fingers, I run with no legs, I strike with no arms. What am I?" and someone else has written "A clock!" and every day I walk past it and think "How does a clock point?"

    A bit of searching suggests that this is a riddle the Riddler asks an NPC (Mori) in Batman: The Enemy Within, and that the NPC doesn't solve it, so maybe it's not supposed to have a straight answer.

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    1. An analog clock points with its hands; the big hand points to the minute and the little hand to the hour.

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    2. Yeah, I don't see the confusion on that one.

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  6. "and we decline to pay a sword trainer's fee of 75 sovereigns"

    But why? It is one of the best upgrades early in the game.

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    1. It would have taken about 25% of what I had a the time, and my sword skill was going up anyway from combat.

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  7. Krondor isn't my favorite game, but I can certainly see the appeal: It's the grandfather of the modern story-heavy RPGs. Of course, it doesn't have the branching narratives of, say, Witcher or Dragon Age - but for early 90s, an RPG with this amount and quality of storytelling was arguably unheard of. You also do have some roleplaying choices - e.g. which path to Krondor to take (and the game reacts to that) - just not dialog choices.
    Krondor arguably also does a better job of mixing a linear narrative with sandboxy free exploration than those later games, which tend to be mechanically a bit thin.

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    1. I certainly agree that the storytelling quality is superior, and I do like the somewhat "open world" aspect, although it's not really that open.

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    2. I agree with this. I loved playing “numbery” RPGs growing up but never really grasped how to make progress in them - I made countless initial parties in Bards Tale and Might and Magic and never got anywhere. Maybe I was too young to understand the game and what it needed me to do. BaK however was different - the amount of mechanics complexity versus story and clear “what to do” was somehow perfect for my brain, age, or whatever.

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    3. One other thing that sets Krondor apart for me is that it gets the experience of a *journey* just right. In most RPGs, getting from A to B is either too trivial and abstracted away (e.g. through fast travel or world map), lacks narrative direction (e.g. in "scavenger hunt" games where you constantly go back and forth), or, on the contrary, too linear and constrained. Krondor is one of the few games (another two I can think of are Star Trail and Baldur's Gate), where actual traveling is a significant part of both gameplay and narrative.

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    4. What I remember as its chief charm was the way the complexity of the plot, how peripheral a role the party plays in many subplots, and the amount of scene-setting flavor text combine to give a feeling of a larger world surrounding the adventure.

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  8. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with Betrayal at Krondor, but I remember being suitably impressed with it when I saw it in action on a friend's computer. I think it was because it was so different from the CRPGs I was used to, which, to be fair, were older and arguably more primitive. At any rate, in those days we were all still enthused about the novelty of FMV and graphics that looked like photographs rather than cartoons. Having missed out on, for example, the Gold Box games, I had also never seen a combat system like Krondor's before.

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  9. Apropos of nothing, is Owyn wearing a rabbit pelt on his head? That was my guess back in '93, but I could never quite figure out if the designers wanted him to look like an idiot or if they were going for something else and just failed spectacularly.

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    1. I *think* it's just a really bad blond wig.

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    2. That is not apropos of nothing; that is apropos of any discussion of this game's graphics. I've stopped commenting on it because it would become tiresome fast, but the NPC graphics are absurd.

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    3. I always figured that they had to have intended to rotoscope them - draw over them - but ran out of money and/or time.

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    4. Just wait until you get to Stonekeep and meet the Ice Queen.

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    5. (I mean the 1995 game Stonekeep, not that there's a location in Krondor called Stonekeep)

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    6. Never mind his hair, or even that he is a middle-aged guy playing a young unexperienced youth: is it a BATH robe he is wearing? Is he always just five minutes after being in shower?

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    7. That is Pug, the most powerful magician in the realms. He holds the rank of Black Robe (in Kelewan) and the successor of Macros the Black (in Midkemia), so he really shouldn't be wearing WHITE :)

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    8. Imagine being named after such a degenerate, drooling abomination as a pug...

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    9. First of all, my "apropos of nothing" was intended to be understood as nothing in the current comments. I had nothing to reply to to ask about the hair/rabbit pelt. The confusion is my fault.

      Second, I resent PO's comment about pugs being "degenerate, drooling abominations." My pug is a morally upstanding abomination who hardly ever drools.

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  10. The combat system is superior to most RPG's combat systems of that era. Most of all, a quasi open world 3d (with sprites!) first person RPG had barely been done by 1993. UU sure, but BaK is superior to all of UU's qualities in my book.

    Stories in video games, even in 2024, are usually quite bad. I find the Bak story far more interesting than Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc.

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    1. I would say that by "that era" most people would mean "era of VGA graphics or better", which excluded pretty much all SSI D&D titles. UU might have had graphics that were better in some aspects, but its combat was far more simple, for example.

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    2. As I discussed in my entries on UU, I think that action combat often gets a reputation for simplicity that it doesn't deserve. There are many things you can do in UU that you can't do in BaK , including shoving enemies off high places, throwing things, engaging in a fighting retreat, leveraging higher ground, and sneaking past enemies.

      I'll keep an open mind about enjoying BaK more, but if fans are of the opinion it's better than Ultima Underworld, they're not going to be happy with my coverage.

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    3. as someone who played the Ultima games but not BaK, while this is definitely an interesting game, I'm not really seeing anything that would have placed it above them back in 1993.

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    4. How can there be even a competition? I absolutely loved BaK and I absolutely loved UUW2, they both are completely superb games! There is enough place on the sky for all of the stars, competition is for eathly stuff. (I didn't like UUW1 as much because of silly Avatar protagonist without any REAL Ultima feel, UUW2 on the other hand inserts itself into Ultima chronology pretty neatly).

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    5. I'm a massive Ultima fan but I'm of the opinion BaK is a better game over UW1 or UW2. Maybe not a better RPG necessarily, but a superior overall game.

      imo, the fact that the whole of both UW1 and UW2 make no sense plotwise from beginning to end helps a lot favoring BaK.

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  11. Your reaction after Chapter 1 might also be a question of expectation management. As you mentioned yourself, almost from the start of the blog people have been mentioning quite often and regularly how great or at least good BaK is, how much they look forward to you covering it, that they're sure you'll be enjoying it a lot etc. - against that background, it's difficult not to have your expectations rise quite high and hard for the game to fulfil or even exceed them.

    Regarding the content of the entry itself, why does an "Amulet of the Upright Man" add to your "Lockpick" skill? Doesn't sound like something an "upright" man should be needing much of specifically or, said otherwise, if you are a specialist at lockpicking I would not necessarily associate your occupation and character with "upright".

    Also, "Locky"? I assume that's used in the books, too, then?

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    1. The Upright Man is the leader of the thief guild underneath Krondor.

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    2. Yeah, "Locky" is Locklear's nickname in A Darkness at Sethanon.

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    3. Maybe it's ironic? Maybe an "upright" man is just as much upright as "Honest Joe the Car Salesman" is honest?

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    4. It's ironic, no doubt, but there's a sort of system to it in the books. The leader of the thieves' guild in Krondor always has a similar name. So when the Upright Man dies, his successor might be called the Honest Man, or the Honourable Man, or something like that.

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  12. "I find myself liking the game but not quite understanding why it's so many commenters' favorite."

    I find it hard to understand that you refuse to accept some peoples point of view. I've seen some rough comments here, which seemingly pissed you off and i guess you deleted a bunch of them. I don't know why they can't put it politely, but you don't really *play* the games, you *work* them.
    You measure the depth of the mechanics and compare the rest to your PoR-patterns or taste about storytelling. But you never seem to get into the games.
    e.g. The dark eye is such a lovely game for many fans, in my memory you cleaned your shoes with it.

    No problem with that, your blog - your rules. No doubt about your good intentions and the tremendous work you serve to us for free. Just saying...

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    1. I don't delete comments unless the use profanity or they're insulting just for insult's sake.

      You do have a point that the experience of blogging about games can change my enjoyment of them. I was just re-listening to the "West Wing Weekly" podcast, and the hosts discussed how the process of analyzing the episodes for the podcast also affected their enjoyment of the show. There's probably no way to avoid this. I still do enjoy the games, though, or I wouldn't still be doing this after 15 years.

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    2. As a tertiary person simply passing by - isn't your claim about Chester not enjoying games quite unfair, made under the post where Chester explicitly mentioned making less screenshots because of being immersed and drawn in by the game, huh?

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    3. FWIW, Chester's comment on Realms of Arkania (which is the only Dark Eye game he's played I think) was that it is "a gem waiting to be cut and polished... almost every part of the game needed a little tweaking, editing, or tightening. I enjoyed it more as I became more familiar with its conventions, and it left me looking forward to its next installment."

      I find that the frustrating parts of games--especially interface issues--get heightened when I'm playing them even if they're not what I think about in retrospect. When I played the puzzle game DROD recently I had some rage about the save/undo system in some of the longer and more complex levels, but ti's not mostly what I think about when I remember it. Partly this is natural because the parts where you get stuck take longer than the parts you breeze through, but they aren't necessarily any more memorable. The mile of where the highway traffic slows from 50 mph to 5 mph takes ten times as long but has the same amount of scenery.

      I bet that this effect is heightened when you're blogging games, and heightened even more when you read someone blogging a game you loved--the complaints stick out even more. Maybe that's part of what happened here.

      (Assuming Realms of Arkania is even the game we're talking about. If not I will have egg on my face.)

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    4. I find it hard to understand that you refuse to accept some peoples point of view.

      What would "accepting" it look like -- how would it differ? Genuinely curious. Unless it's soft-serve ice cream and a few other "joking/not-joking" topics, I think our host is pretty aware that people play RPGs differently and find different things rewarding as a result.

      Chester is also pretty mindful about how the process of blogging affects his enjoyment of, and attitude toward, each game. We've had a back-and-forth before about the temptation of viewing games as obstacles on the way to a destination. It's one that I've encountered before with my own projects, so I sympathize; like a grueling road trip, the only way to stay sane is by finding ways to enjoy the place where you are, since progress will always feel painfully slow when you're fixated on the goal over the horizon (or the odometer).

      As an RPG player, I'm much more interested in music than Chester is, but I'm much less interested in plot and, especially, character arcs than many RPG fans are (especially JRPG fans). I'm more than willing to take advantage of a flaw in the game's systems to make faster progress (though I prefer to find that flaw myself), but I can't understand people who play with a walkthrough at hand to minmax and use exploits to get through the plot faster and feel like a god. Nor can I relate to people who replay an RPG repeatedly in a short span of time (unless it's a roguelike, I guess) to experience every possible configuration of party, item drops, etc. -- it seems obsessive to me, and games that cater to it seem like Skinner boxes taking advantage of addictive behavior -- but I acknowledge that for some folks it's not only a preference, but can even be a lifeline in difficult circumstances.

      No matter how you play a game, there's a way to do it "wrong" in someone else's eyes, right?

      Delete
    5. I am absolutely not kidding about soft-serve ice cream. I saw some big galoot walking away from my favorite ice cream stand with a foot-tall tower of it the other day, and it was all I could do not to slap it out of his hand.

      Delete
    6. I get the part about finding a food item repulsive, or struggling to understand how someone else would enjoy it. Being offended and enraged by another person's enjoyment, that part I don't understand – unless there's a danger the "bad" product will crowd out the "good" one I guess (no danger of that here), or if it's a health hazard (which, OK, soft serve kinda is), or if the product harms the world in some way (hard to see how soft serve is worse than any other cheap mass-market food). Otherwise, what does someone else's enjoyment cost me?

      I've had high-end ice cream in the states and abroad, (the best I've ever had was in France), and the difference in quality can be stark. But I had my share of soft serve as a kid and enjoyed it -- preferred it, even, since it was easier to consume. As an adult, it's generally been a letdown: too sweet, not chocolate-y enough for my adult tastes (or maybe it's gotten worse). But there's nothing intrinsic about the form factor that has to be cheap, over-sugared, and served by some bored teenager who hasn't washed his hands lately. I wouldn't hesitate to get a dark chocolate soft serve from a place that had very good ice cream and food safety -- after all you can make soft serve out of nearly any non-chunky ice cream by aerating it, can't you?

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    7. I can understand a strong negative knee jerk reaction to soft serve based on the experience of being baited-and-switched by the promise of ice cream only to have it turn out to be soft serve.

      (Worse is the promise of milkshakes which are revealed to be JUST SOFT SERVE IN A CUP)

      Delete
    8. AlphabeticalAnonymousOctober 5, 2024 at 3:22 PM

      Unless one is into Animal Rights or is a (misguided) anti-GMO agitator, what's this about getting viscerally mad at what other people eat? I don't get it...

      Now, people walking around in public using their smartphones in speakerphone mode: *that* makes me want to slap something out of a person's hand.

      Delete
    9. @AA: Oh yes, totally agreed about the speakerphone mode. In fact, people talking quite loudly on their phones in general, but especially in (the specifically designated 'quiet zones' in) trains or other places you can't easily escape them, can be quite annoying.

      [Funny how this thread got so quickly from one topic (someone complaining about the way he feels Chet plays) through another (soft serve ice cream) to this one.]

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    10. Some people find certain foods viscerally unpleasant to see or even think about (my wife is like this with America's most popular condiment, so much so that I have conditioned myself to avoid its name). I can also understand a feeling of offense at people who take something that you highly value aesthetically and consume it a way that misses the entire point... hmm, and the example that leaps to mind is roguelike players who get really mad when someone skirts permadeath. Oh well. I'm a big free jazz fan too (one the other things Chester has a Thing about).

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    11. I know I brought this upon myself by starting my comment "I am absolutely not kidding," but of course I was kidding. Mostly. I feel about soft-serve ice cream like most people feel about putting ketchup on steak. I vacillate between "to each his own" and "what the #@$*, man? Did you not see that they had homemade rum raisin?!" But I'm rarely in danger of actually slapping it out of someone's hand.

      If I were single and dating, you can be sure that would be one of my screening questions, though.

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    12. I know I brought this upon myself by starting my comment "I am absolutely not kidding," but of course I was kidding.

      You do realize that I thought this exact scenario through before replying, and took you at your word?! Jeez, man, you're like one of those people who insist they don't want a birthday party, get mad when people ask "Really? Are you 100% sure?", and then sulk when nobody throws them one...

      (Just kidding. Or wait, I'm absolutely not kidding. Or I absolutely am. But I don't like rum raisin; to me, that's still an "Uh-oh, the only kinds of ice cream Grandpa has are pistachio and rum raisin" flavor of disappointment. It's not as bad as finding liverwurst instead of ham or turkey, or horseradish instead of mayo, but it's on the way there.)

      Delete
    13. There's something inherently funny and weird about kidding/joking/etc. An upright man))) may say "I am always telling the truth" and this will be the truth, and he cannot say "I am lying" because he would break his code. On the other hand, a compulsatory liar can say "I am always telling the truth" because it is a lie, but he cannot say "I am lying" because that would be the truth, and a compulsory liar cannot say that! On the other hand, a joker/kidder/around-fooler can say "I am always lying" but they are, in fact, simply kidding, neither lying nor truthing! Of course, they can also say "I am kidding" or "I am totally not kidding", or "I am kidding, only not really, but actually really... just kidding, sorry, not really"! Kidding seems to be halfway there between truth and lies, and Paradox of Creatan seems to be solvable by persupposing Creatan is a kidder after all! ...just kidding, you know.

      Delete
    14. Red, Blue and Green Bleebs.

      Delete
    15. I wasn't talking about enjoyment or taste, I was referring to his question.

      If I meet Chet's wife, maybe I don't 'understand', why he is her favorite. Do I have to?

      As an analyst, he should mention things as they are. He recognizes that some games are the 'big ones' with a huge fanbase. That's why he asked the commenters, right? So here we are.

      @PK Thunder 'What would "accepting" it look like -- how would it differ?'

      You can easily find stuff for those games, like fansites or comments.
      https://dimwood.net/chap1.html
      Imagine, how much work went into it. (RoA has a much bigger site)
      Some hints here:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg_gamers/comments/viab72/comment/idc6rfc/

      He might at least suspect that there is another truth out there.
      Of course, it could be interresting to read, when he don't like it.

      I don't want to take it too serious, but if Chet leave it to his question without an answer, I would comment it with a joke from Bud Bundy: 'Pretty low, Dad!'

      Delete
    16. @Kraut: Honestly, I still don't get it, sorry. After the sentence you quoted in your first comment, Chet spent an entire paragraph in the entry above explaining his current impression. His statement has led to commenters giving some potential reasons for a possible difference between his view on the game (after chapter 1) and those of others and Chet in turn has reacted to some of those. So far so good in my book.

      Certain comments and/or playing the game further might have an impact on what he thinks of BaK and once he gets to the summary and rating, Chet also usually refers to contemporary reviews and to what extent they do or don't mirror his views. But in the end the blog entries reflect how -he- experienced and sees a game based on his subjective criteria and opinion, not how anybody/everybody else does. And I think that's fine and is what most people come to read here, knowing full well that some might weigh and appreciate e.g. music, graphics or Japanese chibi aesthetics differently.

      So I fail to understand why Chet should - especially at this early stage - have to look at fan sites to realize BaK or any other game is beloved by some people and why, in order to "accept" (?) their opinion. You call him an "analyst", but just because his blog has become well-known and referenced over time, to me does not mean there is any 'obligation' for him to turn into some kind of Wikipedia summary about a game trying to acknowledge and reflect all kinds of views on it.

      If you have an issue with this, you better not read entries like the ones about Legend of Zelda or his 10 most controversial opinions or look at his ratings for U7/1&2... .

      Delete
    17. @Kraut, I think the problem with your analogy is that when you meet someone's partner, you only get a fractional sense of who they are, but when you play a game you can experience it more or less as anyone else would.

      I still don't understand your point, really. If a game has a big fanbase, but Chet doesn't like it and can't see why people do, is he supposed to hedge, or doubt his own judgment, or apologize for disagreeing, or defer to the opinion of the masses? Is he supposed to write differently based on how much other people like a game, in other words?

      All these would make him a less interesting writer than he is. If anything, when a game is popular or has a hardcore fanbase, I want him to be more personal and less influenced by others' judgment or appreciation. Chet's pretty upfront about his biases and pretty able to tell the difference between a game that doesn't happen to be for him, and a game whose charm to anyone is baffling to him.

      (If the protagonists are drawn in Japanese kiddie style, it does scramble his radar a bit through sheer repulsion and reluctance to be associated with such things, but his Final Fantasy review showed he can grit his teeth and persevere if the game's compelling enough to him.)

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    18. @Kraut
      Also, if you re-read the quote you used, Chet says "not quite understanding" why this is so many peoples favorite. That's a long ways from "refusing to accept" their opinion. People like different types of music, book, movies, food, everything.

      Delete
  13. There's still plenty of time for aimlessly wandering around the kingdom, so don't feel obliged to get it all done now. Though making an inexplicable trip to Northwarden in Chapter 1 (only) offers a trivial quest whose reward is, in the CD version, a chance to experience the full potential of Red Book audio!

    (Spoiler, if you can call it that)
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=tSmOFUNAItU

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  14. I think the game as book approach was somewhat rare, perhaps only U9 and Siege of Avalon have it. Nowadays I think it's more common to have that approach, at least in Kingmaker and PoE, so it may be a pioneer in that sense (however Feist actually novelized this game and the story is underwhelming in comparison).

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  15. Regarding the "phenomenon" (?) of BaK popularity, Final Fantasy 7 springs to my mind: it was a HUGE hit, it launched Square into international fame, wealth and power, yet it had a totally linear story with no branching at all. It's just that story was SO good, and the mechanics were SO fun to lose yourself in, that, even in the West, where RPGs used to have more branching, no one seemed to complain.

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  16. Favorite game: not really, but a very good game for the time. I know you tend to ignore it, but the music was well done. The costumes weren't as bad back when all the polygons looked like you were watching them through frosted windows with beer goggles on. There were many points where you could just ignore the main quest and explore. It was one of the only gamed back then that utilized the Disney Sound Source that came with the Disney Animation Studio program. Being able to switch back and forth from 1st person view to the overhead view also helped. Check your settings and the movement buttons, if you're half turning often you might have it set to small steps, rather than full turning

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    1. Also, they released the full CD version for free on a PC Gamer disc in '94 or '95, which certainly didn't hurt

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    2. Yeah, the step and turning size did the trick. I have to remind myself to go back through all the options again after I've been playing for a few hours. Because of the break, I had forgotten they were there.

      Delete
    3. I believe the game also has a kind of low FOV (field of vision), so when you turn enough to turn one "screen's" worth, it is not 90 degrees on the map. I always thought it felt kind of low, and didn't like the higher step size options, since they were jarring.
      The random turning might be happening if you get too close to things. Anywhere near a mountain, it's really easy to get "caught" on the edges, and the game will auto-turn you as if you hit a wall.
      Maybe it is because I played the game when it was new, but I always thought they character models were pretty good looking, better than the alternatives (hand-drawn, or early 3d models) when used in a 3D world. See this game's not-sequel, Betrayal in Antara, for an example of some pretty poor hand-drawn sprites used in the same engine...

      Delete
  17. Bug Notice: Chet, please be aware that if you raise a character's strength too high (well over 200), it may cause his combat damage to "roll over" and deal negative amounts of damage to enemies.

    This should not normally happen, but a late-game location allows you to raise your strength repeatedly (gur jryy va puncgre fvk pna or erhfrq nf bsgra nf lbh yvxr), and the well-hidden best weapon in the game adds to this (gur thneqn erinapur va puncgre rvtug, cnegvphyneyl vs lbh unir vg oyrffrq).

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  18. If you’re interested someone did a (I think) 100 percent screenshot playthrough here:
    https://lparchive.org/Betrayal-at-Krondor/

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    1. AlphabeticalAnonymousOctober 5, 2024 at 3:18 PM

      Yes, good call. I had forgotten to mention this one. I followed along with that playthrough as I played (behind my own progress) and I found some of the writing to be highly enjoyable (though in a very different style than this blog).

      Delete
  19. Part of the problem is that you had high expectations going in, but it's still a 1993 game. You've been let down pretty badly because it doesn't hold up to your imaginary version.

    Had you gone in totally cold, your reaction would probably be something more like, "Hey, this is pretty good!" And you'd have had a solidly good time, and would speak well of the game.

    It was pretty damn advanced for the era. It did everything reasonably well, and had some open world-ish elements where you got to choose, as you saw, what route you took to Krondor, and your experience would be quite different. And it strongly rewarded exploration, poking your nose into hidden areas, which was a big draw at the time. I don't remember that trope being very common yet.

    Try to play it as 1993 Chet, and you'll probably enjoy it a lot more.

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    Replies
    1. " You've been let down pretty badly because it doesn't hold up to your imaginary version. " I mean, that really isn't it. Before I started playing, I didn't have any idea what to expect. I didn't even know whether it was a first-person game or an iconographic game. So there was no "imaginary" version.

      I AM enjoying it. A lot of people seem to be commenting as if I said I didn't like the game. I do. It just doesn't seem to me to match the superlatives that I've been getting for the last decade.

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  20. As a kid, I thought the person graphics were really cool, the storytelling was interesting, and it made me want to get and then subsequently read the books they were based off of. The battles were complicated and difficult and kid me really loved redoing things over and over in a way that adult me does not anymore.

    The fact that the people graphics look ridiculous now as an adult doesn't negate what kid me thought, but I do find this game much more difficult to replay now than my nostalgia for it wants me to think.

    I concur with other commenters that the 'curse of high expectations' is upon you as well, I think 'oh this is my favorite I'm really looking forward to when you do it' must be really grating as a reviewer / content creator. I hope you like it for what it is but don't have any expectations of you thinking it's the best game ever.

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    Replies
    1. "I hope you like it for what it is but don't have any expectations of you thinking it's the best game ever."

      That's pretty much what I was trying to convey--with the caveat that I've only finished one of a dozen chapters.

      Delete
  21. I started to play pre-1995 RPGs only in the late 2000s, and the thing that hit me with BaK that it was very streamlined (underdeveloped?) like Might and Magic, but at the same time it had the epic feeling of the Gold Box games.
    Ultima games are great, but they felt to require more work from me to interact, to navigate or to complete quests. Even Ultima Underground is very clunky to control and game window is tiny and it is difficult to see things and navigate. Overall BaK might be more limited to an Ultima game, but at least for me it was significantly easier for me to pickup BaK and learn to play it.
    The extra is the game world, which in contrast to the loneliness of UU, you have a team of personalities to work with from the very first screen, and this to me created a similar feeling like reading The Hobbit or to play a very early version of Knights of the Old Republic.
    This was greatly aided by the production values, which are a huge step up compared to games of 1992 (the digitized actors never bothered me that much).
    The music is one very important element that pulled me in, which is on my playlist next to the music of Baldur's Gate or Shadow of Darkness.
    Overall, I wouldn't rank it below or above play Ultima Underground or Dark Sun, these 3 games have very different design goals, and while they succeed with those goals, all are hampered in different ways with their technology.

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  22. There's certainly some nostalgia. I tried to reinstall it and give it a go along with your replay, and I found the interface and 3d navigation so annoying with today's lens, that it kind of discouraged me. This is a game that would benefit so much from a decent remaster!!

    But indeed it's really the idea of being "in a book", with a narrator narrating all your actions in the 3rd person, which I found immersive, enchanting, back then. The structure with your party and characters changing from chapter to chapter as in a real book where you'll follow Frodo and Sam for a chapter and then jump to follow Merry & Pippin in another, was also so original for me compared to other RPGs from the era where you make your party and level it up start to end in a straight line. We had of course Choose Your Own Adventure books at the time and I've read many of them, but Krondor was the best you could get in terms of "playing a book", for the time. For an avid fantasy reader, that was a huge draw.

    So it's closer to an interactive novel in a way, but they managed to fuse that with an open-world cRPG approach and the balance of both elements is I think what sets it apart. I don't think there is such a good chapters/storytelling approach with open world exploration before Baldur's Gate.

    Oh and the music is great. Truly.

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  23. The appeal of BaK is a lot like the appeal of Baldur's Gate. The journey becomes part of the game itself. And both games give you compelling enough reasons for you to travel these distances.

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