Sunday, July 2, 2023

Warriors of the Eternal Sun: We Butchered a Zoo

The duke starts to lose it.
       
The first couple hours of Warriors were boring. As I related last time, the game starts on an island in the middle of the map, and a single bridge leads off the island. I kept trying to adventure on the other side of the bridge, but I kept getting smacked down hard by giants, grizzly bears, and dire wolves. I settled in for a long period of grinding, but my mage stubbornly refused to gain levels. This had me confused for a while. The magic-user gains Level 2 at 2,500 experience. Granted, this is quite a bit higher than the fighter, who only needs 1,500. But my fighter was at Level 3 (3,000 experience) well before my mage hit Level 2. With some experimentation, I figured out why: Only the character who strikes the killing blow gets full experience from the battle. Everyone else gets roughly 1/10 that amount. Healing, buffing, defensive spells, sleeping (and other non-damaging offensive spells), and any damage short of an actual kill gets you nothing.
   
I had trouble determining through research whether this method is consistent with tabletop D&D, but it's not consistent with most D&D computer games. I don't mind the idea of the person who contributed the most getting the most experience, but contributions other than direct damage ought to count.
   
Up to this point, I hadn't been bothering to cast my mage's single "Magic Missile" because when you cast the last of a spell, you lose it from the hotkeyed action, and you have to set it again after you re-memorize. In light of the new information, I sucked up this annoyance and the mage started to do a little better. At the same time, I started just resting and healing between battles, hoping that the game isn't on any kind of timer (thankfully, there's no age statistic).
        
So, a beastwoman?
     
Gingerly, I began exploring the area on the other side of the bridge. A river cuts the map in half south of the central lake, so I decided to make that my starting point and work my way around the map clockwise. I spent about an hour fighting random grizzlies, hill giants, beastmen (of several varieties), tigers, and dire wolves as I explored in east-west strips. My mage finally hit Level 2 and got a second "Magic Missile."
   
I found absolutely nothing until I got to the northwest corner of the map. The map has something that looks like a canyon up there. I reached the entrance to the canyon and found that it was on higher ground, and a ladder was leading up to it. Without really paying attention, I took the ladder and suddenly noticed the party was taking damage. It appears the canyon is filled with lava. I hastened back down and annotated it for later exploration if I find anything capable of protecting against lava.
        
I suppose you'll tell me that the surface at the top of that ladder is a different color than the surface of the mesa south of it.
     
Continuing along the northern mountain border, I found a network of caves on a couple of different levels connected by ladders. "Smoke from a fire clouds your vision," the game said as I entered the first one. The caves were all small; I searched every wall for secret doors and found only a couple. The caves were inhabited by beastmen and featured numerous battles with beastman warriors. I don't know if this is true for everyone, or if I spent too much time grinding, but I find first-person combat in this game much faster and easier than top-down combat. A fight with a couple of beastmen is over in just a few seconds, and I hardly ever take any damage. None of the battles in the caves lasted more than 10 or 15 seconds, and none resulted in a character death or caused me to reload.
      
Fighting a high-ranking beastman.
      
Miscellaneous encounters in the caves:
    
  • A trap filled with spiky rocks.
  • "Your lungs burn and your eyes water from the stench of smoldering herbs."
  • A bronze-skinned warrior woman who seemed to be a boss. The battle was over too quick for me to get a screenshot. She either dropped a spear +1 and then I found "gold and turquoise jewelry worth 300 gold pieces" nearby or vice versa.
       
But is she a beastwoman, or something else?
       
  • A tangled mass of vines blocking a passage. "Maybe Marmillian could help us," the game offered. I didn't know at the time who Marmillian was. 
  • A war hammer lying on the ground. When I picked it up, a "large beastman" came rushing from the shadows yelling "Uklangor kill!" He, himself, was killed instead. I think he dropped another +1 spear.
      
I think this was the first special encounter graphic.
      
  • "A grunt-like chant echoes from the northern passage." The passage was blocked by rocks, but the Gauntlets of Ogre Power gave us the strength to clear it.  
     
I wonder if regular 18 strength would have been enough.
     
  • A battle with someone named Grulapp.
  • "The walls of this room are covered in strange runes drawn with coal."
  • A "Protection from Evil" scroll lying on the floor. 
  • A tribal war party. This was the toughest battle in the game: I think there were six beastmen. It still wasn't hard. Beyond them were "gold and artifacts."
     
This was one of those expeditions that made me feel bad from a role-playing perspective. I mean, the caves are there and of course we're going to explore them and of course we'll respond with deadly force if we're attacked. In real life, I'd be on the side of the beastmen. We're invading their caves. 
       
The typical cave in this area.
       
When I wrapped up, I decided to head back to the castle and see if I could figure out who this "Marmillian" was. I searched the manual and found the answer. Although he doesn't appear in the back story, he's "the duke's chief advisor" and apparently resides in one of the towers in the castle throne room. I found him occupying one of those non-obvious entrances, and I'd overlooked it. He had a long speech:
       
I am so glad to see you all again. People here are becoming edgy. It seems that all they do is bicker and snap. Even our well-mannered duke seems a bit paranoid. Perhaps it is this infernal sun or the feeling of imprisonment in this strange valley. I do hope you will find some allies soon. It may be just what the people need to lift their spirits.
   
The artifacts from the beastmen are patterned from items made by an ancient race known as the Azcans. It's amazing that art lost for centuries has remained unchanged in the beastman culture. These creatures you describe are long extinct outside this valley. I feel like we're in a giant museum. I have an item that may help you pass the tangled vines you found in the beastman caves. It is a withered vine that repels normal vines. I only have one, so guard it well. Please hurry. I fear we haven't much time.
       
So from this speech, I learned a few things. First, it's likely that the castle and its people are from the outside of Mystara, not from another world entirely. Second, the authors of the setting are pretty lazy: "Azcan"? As in a combination of "Aztec" and "Incan?" Third, the "giant museum" bit confirms what Adamantyr said about the purpose of the Hollow World being to preserve threatened cultures. It's great that we showed up, isn't it?
        
It's kind of like Anchorage in the summer.
    
Meanwhile, Marmillian isn't kidding about people around the castle starting to lose it. NPC dialogue got updated and changed at some point: "Where were you during the last beastman attack?"; "I think my neighbor has gone mad"; "Things aren't much better now"; "Haven't you found an ally yet?" Most disturbing was the duke. Although he was happy that we'd found a "passage to another realm" (I guess that answers my question as to whether this map is the only map), he had changed his goals at some point: "I expect you to return with an army to aid me. I am afraid the people plan to revolt. Beware of that scheming Marmilllian. I do not trust anyone anymore." Yikes.
    
More positive changes were found in the shops, which had new equipment. That was good, as I had plenty of gold to spend. The armor shop had a suit of plate mail and a leather +1 that I bought for my fighter and thief, respectively. The magic shop had a "Sleep" scroll. The weapon shop didn't have anything new that I wanted, but I offloaded a bunch of found weapons.
      
New stuff in the shops.
      
Because of what happened with my missing Marmillian, I took the time to explore every nook and wall, and I found a couple of dungeons I'd missed the first time. One was on the outside of the temple, and it led me to a basement with a Staff of Healing and a Potion of Healing. The other was inside the magic shop, and it led me to a small laboratory with a Wand of Lightning and a "Sleep" scroll. Damn it. I'd just bought one.
    
That wand sure came in handy.
    
Finally, the caravan shop was offering transportation to the beastman caves for 1,000 gold pieces. That's a steep price, but it's worth not having to take the time to walk. Unfortunately, he doesn't hang around to bring you back.
    
My cleric had acquired "Resist Fire" in the meantime, and I wanted to see if it worked on lava. It does, but only for one character, so that will have to wait a bit longer. Rather than head back into the beastman caves and untangle the vines, I decided to explore the rest of this map first. 
   
It was a long time before I found another point of interest--a cave in the northeast corner. A few minutes after I entered, two of my characters got killed by a rock statue. (I noted with amusement the similarities to my problems with the stone golems in Ambermoon.) On a reload, I decided to try my Wand of Lightning on him, and I soon found out that you have to be careful about mashing the "Attack" button when you have a Wand of Lightning equipped, because once the monster is dead, the extra lightning bolts come bouncing back at you from the wall behind him and kill your party members. On a second reload, I killed him, but I soon reached a wall that required some kind of combination to pass, and I had to leave.
       
I'll be back with a paper sword!
           
I continued following the outer edge of mountains down the western side of the map. My experiences in town had taught me to hug the mountains as I traveled down them, in the event that there were any concealed entrances (a trait this game shares with Serpent Isle). It was good that I did, as I found one on the eastern edge of the map. Inside were a bunch of cave bears, quite a bit harder than the grizzly bears outside, and for the first time in the game, I found myself trying classic Dungeon Master tricks like backpedaling down a hallway while firing missile weapons. It's tougher here than in Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder because the game doesn't let you move while the enemies are taking their turn. Once a group of enemies has started attacking, you can mash the directional pad all you want, but you're not moving until they've all had a chance to make their attacks.
       
These guys look like they're wearing sunglasses and dancing.
        
I managed to defeat the bears, but there were some saber-toothed tigers on the other side of a door that attacked me from two sides, left room for no tricks, and killed me nearly instantly. I marked the cave for a later return. 
   
Another secret cave in the southeast corner held some black widow spiders. I was able to defeat them without tricks, but I didn't find anything useful. West of that, yet another hidden cave had about six bears in a very small area and sent me scuttling with my tail between my legs ("Sleep" did not work on them). I cleaned out another cave of owlbears only with great difficulty, finding 752 gold in a corner. I was beginning to think that clearly we were in this area too soon, but the next cave had nothing but swarms of giant rats, which we cleared easily. 
        
Still the silliest D&D monster.
          
I finally reached the western side of the southern river, having completed my circuit around the outer edges of the map. I was at this point about as far from home as you can possibly get. I turned around and followed the contours of the river back.
       
Making my way back.
      
I found a cave on my return trip. When I entered, I took no more than three steps before a voice boomed out, "These passages have been sealed by the ancients!" I couldn't progress any further. 
      
So?
        
On the way back, I was attacked by a hydra and had to reload when he killed my cleric. (I was too far afield to make it back with a dead character.) The second time in the same area, I ran into a black dragon. I had my mage shoot a lightning bolt at him from the wand and followed it up with some physical attacks, and against all odds, I killed it.
     
What kind of hydra has only one head?
   
Since I was mostly hugging water on the way back, there wasn't much opportunity for caves, and the return trip was quicker. When I finally made it back to the castle, I had explored the outer and inner edges of the map, though I might have missed some areas in between. So far, I haven't found any caves or dungeons that aren't in cliff walls, so I'm not sure if it's even possible for one to show up in the middle of a forest. If it is, I've missed those. I still need to re-explore some cliff faces on the central island, as I didn't know to check for secret entrances the first time. Oh, and when I got back, the bartender told me that he heard there's a secret entrance somewhere behind a waterfall. Damn it. I must have passed six waterfalls.
       
Now you tell me!
      
The weapons shop had +1 daggers and maces, and the armor shop had +1 shields. The magic shop acquired "Web," but what I really need now is a third-level mage spell. The caravan routes now go to the "Azcan Caverns" and "Elven Caverns," which I'm guessing are the two places where I couldn't progress because I have to finish the beastman caverns first.
   
Five notes:
  
  • When a character levels up after combat, you hear a "Yeah!" but otherwise get no confirmation. If you don't notice whose maximum hit points changed, you don't know who leveled.
  • Resting offers a Gold Box-style fast healing where the cleric keeps casting healing spells until everyone is at full strength.
  • If the mage has a scroll in her possession and hasn't memorized it yet, she automatically does so when you rest. This is one of those things where I have to admit that no, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't want to memorize a new spell, but I'm still annoyed that the game does it without my input.
  • Along the same lines, I can't put my finger on why it bothers me that characters are assumed to automatically equip the best armor and shield in their inventories (if they have more than one), but it does.
  • I can't get over how large that compass is. The developers really wanted you to know what direction you were going.
   
As I wrap up:
    
  • My fighter is Level 5 and carries a +1 sword, bow, plate armor, and +1 shield.
  • My magic-user is Level 5 and carries a +1 dagger, sling, and Wand of Lightning. I wish I knew how many charges it had left. In her Level 1 spellbook, she has "Magic Missile," "Sleep," "Detect Magic," "Light," "Darkness," and "Shield." At Level 2, she has only "Entangle." She has one Level 3 slot and nothing to memorize there yet.
      
My mage at the end of this session.
       
  • My thief is Level 5 and carries a +1 sword, bow, and +1 leather armor. I really haven't found much for thieves to do. I need to try her "Hide" option more.
  • My cleric is Level 5 and carries a +1 mace, sling, +1 chain mail, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and +1 shield. She has two "Cure Light Wounds" occupying her Level 1 slots and "Bless" and "Resist Fire" occupying her Level 2s.
     
I wish the game had slightly better balance between the outdoor and indoor areas. Both exploration and combat outdoors are a bit long and tedious, while both exploration and combat indoors are a little too quick. 
   
I like the way the plot has been evolving, and I hope it pays off. My theory at this point is that we were teleported here because our culture was about to go extinct (at the hands of the goblins). We're in the zoo.
   
Time so far: 7 hours


 

88 comments:

  1. No, this XP method is not consistent with tabletop D&D either. However, lightning bolts bouncing back IS consistent with tabletop (albeit removed from newer editions).

    And I'm a bit surprised you weren't expecting a cave behind the waterfall; as far as I remember, almost every game that has waterfalls has a cave behind them too.

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    1. I was under the impression that D&D rules were a bit flexible when it comes to the awarding of experience, allowing the dungeon master some discretion to divide things in a way that rewards creativity and effort. Otherwise, wouldn't a cleric who spends each combat running around healing and buffing her party members get screwed on experience rewards?

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    2. It's not a standard to only award XP for the killing blow. For one thing, that's a heck of a lot more bookkeeping for a DM to do in the middle of a combat.

      The usual practice is to just tally up XP into a pool at the end of a session and then divide it. (If you have henchmen or underlings with the party, they get 1/2 share, while players get a full share.)

      Another rule that's ignored by CRPG's and a lot of tabletop gamers alike is experience for treasure. This was actually the main way to get XP in the earliest editions; every gold piece was worth 1 XP. DM's hated it though because it meant they'd have award a LOT of treasure, and the tabletop game rarely offered much in terms of money sinks.

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    3. Normally, combat XP is divided equally among all who participate (and healing allies certainly qualifies as that). Then, each class gets bonus XP for doing class-specific things (such as spellcasting). And then, players get bonus XP for clever ideas and good roleplaying.

      That's by the second-edition D&D ruleset; almost every D&D CRPG before 2015 uses this.

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    4. The "XP for gold" rule is from first edition, not second.

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    5. The specific variant that this game is based on still has 1 gp = 1 xp rule. The rules also state that monster experience is divided evenly between participants including ones that died. The short version it gives is "Add XP Value of all monsters defeated; divide by number of characters who participated in their defeat; award the result in XP to each character who participated."

      For the lightning wand, I think it just has a chance to break rather than a number of charges which is what it actually should have. With a little save scumming, it's a convenient way to grind up levels near that starting bridge and makes elves preferable to fighters since they can use the wand.

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    6. Right -- this is why the economies in the Gold Box games were so unbalanced; they needed to give relatively large treasure awards to keep the experience curve working right, and since video games don't have the same set of money sinks as you can find in tabletop (strongholds, followers/henchmen, family members...) it quickly made money meaningless (even though many of the games came out after the 2e change-over, I don't believe they ever really overhauled the engine to update the ruleset).

      Anyway yeah, every edition of D&D I remember reading and playing back in the day (1e, 2e, and Rules-Compendium Basic) assumed equal shares of monster XP. As I recall they were at least vague about whether treasure XP was fully shared if a party member skimmed some off the side or hid a share of the loot from everybody else, which led to lots of teenaged shenanigans and games falling apart.

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    7. 100FloorsOfFrightsJuly 2, 2023 at 8:34 PM

      The BECMI (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal) D&D line was explicitly intended for younger players than AD&D, and the Basic rulebook actively encouraged you to find non-lethal ways to deal with your foes. You were supposed to get most of your experience from treasure (as I see another commenter noted above), so experience values for killing monsters were low compared to AD&D. But this game sounds like it's just badly balanced - if it already takes longer to level up a magic-user, that character will likely always lag behind the rest of the party.

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    8. XP tor treasure only makes sense if the heroes waste it on booze and woman between every adventure, a la the stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser by Fritz Leiber that were incredibly influential on Gygax and Arneson. Unfortunately there is no mechanical reason to do this in D&D so instead you end up with boatloads of treasure and few good sinks.

      I’ve been using carousing rules in my campaigns for a few years now and it’s awesome because not only does it get players thinking about ways to get treasure without necessarily killing the monsters, but they then get super drunk and unfortunate random things happen that creates great stories.

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    9. AD&D had the money sink of training costs to level up, and those fluctuated up and down based on the DM's assessment of how well you played your class. But in all my decades of playing D&D I've never seen any DM enforce the training rules

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    10. Yeah, and since training costs increased linearly (I believe like 1k or 1.5k gold per level, as modified by that rating of how well you were playing on a multiple of like 1-3, or something like that?), while XP/expected treasure go up more or less exponentially, this again is only really a factor at low levels (though I believe at least in 1e, the tables were sufficiently borked that classes with low XP requirements like thieves would have to get enough treasure to qualify for level 3 or 4 before they'd have enough money to pay to train to get to level 2!)

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    11. 100FloorsOfFrightsJuly 3, 2023 at 9:43 AM

      Yeah, I never ran into anyone who actually enforced the weird 'there can be only one' rules for high-level druids and monks, either.

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    12. Brent's comment about no mechanical reason to waste your money on booze or women reminds me of the 1975 GDW tabletop fencing game En Garde! (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/11/retrospective-en-garde.html) It was mostly a PvP combat game of revealing simlutaneous actions, but it had a campaign mode RPG attached, and there was a mechanic where you got some kind of penalty if you didn't maintain sufficient "female companionship," either by visiting a bawdy house or with some sort of courting mechanic. Carousing was also a way to maintain social status.

      Honestly don't see why cRPGs couldn't use this as a money sink, though it's probably much simpler to skip the middleman and gain XP directly from combat instead of through treasure.

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    13. Thanks, everyone, for clearing up the rules. I agree that tying experience to treasure is a bad system.

      How does the "carousing" mechanic work with paladins or ascetic characters in general?

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    14. Generally they make sizable donations to whichever church they find most fitting. However, paladins aren't prohibited from enjoying good food and drink, and (depending on setting) one could make a case for them sponsoring a high-profile geisha or similar "companion".

      Hm, this reminds me that booze-hound and self-proclaimed womanizer Dupre was originally a Paladin and the mayor of the City of Paladins...

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    15. Well, there are lots of tabletop systems for general upkeep and lifestyle maintenance (AD&D 1e had these too, actually, though they were pretty negligible) that would presumably include things like charitable donations to your church, so I guess those would do some of the work. But as to carousing specifically, I've only ever seen those kinds of rules in games that are trying to emulate genres where paladins or ascetics wouldn't be valid character choices; they're mostly in swords and sorcery type games (the Mongoose edition of Conan was I think the first time I came across that sort of thing?)

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    16. I don't see why a CRPG couldn't implement a carousing money sink the same as tabletop, having a selection of side quest scenarios resulting from overconsumption. You would need a way to have the player discover this mechanic somehow, and maybe various hints about where and how much to carouse to find good scenarios...

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    17. Ultima's conception of a "paladin" is quite different from the D&D model, though, particularly where Ultima doesn't separate divine and arcane magic. Still, I suppose you're right that there's no reason that a paladin has to be a teetotaler. I also forgot that some games (e.g., the Krynn series) do enforce paladins (or is it knights?) donating most of their wealth to their orders and/or other causes.

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    18. "Lifestyle maintenance" is arguably represented in games with a "survival" mode that requires eating and sleeping, sometimes forcing the player to pay for these services. I wouldn't mind if more games with a "survival" mode occasionally required the character to bathe; I think that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is the only game I've ever played in which your health and charisma suffer if you don't occasionally take a dunk in some water or spend an evening at the bathhouse.

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    19. One of the many things that made the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG infamous: you can participate in a drinking contest. If you do so with a paladin in your party, you will learn, at some future point when you glance at their character sheet, that that paladin is now fallen.

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    20. That's all it takes to make a paladin fall? To be present during a drinking game?

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    21. By the rulebooks, absolutely NOT. But traditionally, some dungeon masters are complete and utter jerks about paladins falling (such stories are quite common on RPG message boards).

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    22. Oh tell me about it. I typically play a paladin main character in CRPGs that offer that as a on option, and it’s almost always different flavors of painful. Pathfinder: Kingmaker was probably the worst recent example; the game railroads you into various kinds of Lawful Stupid behavior, up to and including not presenting paladin characters with options other than genocide when anyone else could resolve some situations peacefully.

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    23. Oops, the above anon was me.

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    24. 100FloorsOfFrightsJuly 4, 2023 at 5:29 PM

      Ugh, don't get me started on the alignment options in 'Kingmaker.' When I played as a paladin I had to spend so much money on Atonement scrolls, simply because the main plot forces you into situations in which you can't make a Lawful Good decision (and, yes, sometimes seems to read things I simply won't do, like commit genocide, as viable Lawful Good options).

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    25. Like many others, when I played some version of D&D (I started on AD&D2), the DM always awards combat experience to the party. But I could swear when I started actually reading the different rule books (either in Basic, AD&D1, or AD&D2) it specifically stated that only the party member that dealt the killing blow got the xp for the kill. Granted, with the xp for treasure, that doesn't hurt all that much, but still annoying. I could be misremembering though, and it was many years ago since I read those books.

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    26. I have a friend who who always insisted that in 1e AD&D the killing blow got all the monster's XP. The only text I've found in 1e supporting that is this obscure exception to the XP rules: "Monsters slain single-handedly — and a magic-user protected by fighters keeping off the enemy so he or she can cast spells which slay monsters is NOT fighting single-handed — accrue x.p. only to the slayer" DMG pg 86. That may have been misinterpreted by some as applicable to circumstances where it was certainly not intended. It certainly begs the question of whether spell casters get partial credit for kills by the fighters protecting them! Also bear in mind practices like this were passed on almost exclusively by word of mouth from a partial understanding or reading of an excessively convoluted and poorly organized ruleset, frequently from only one person among a whole group. I imagine one of the designers of this game just always played that way, was told by their cousin or friend who DMd for them that it was in the book, and assumed it was correct.

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  2. Lightning bolt also bounces back in the Gold Box games. I remember using this for double hits.

    In GB I think the Wands of Lightning usually had a fixed number of charges (14?). Here, online walkthroughs say gur ahzore vf enaqbzyl trarengrq rirel gvzr lbh erfrg be erybnq gur tnzr.

    Mesa surfaces: Yes, they're different, but only upon taking a close look there seem to be small flames on the upper one.

    If seems the shops' offerings changing is tied to you leveling up.

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    1. >If seems the shops' offerings changing is tied to you leveling up.

      Or to the overall passage of time. It's tough to separate the two. I agree that leveling is more likely.

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  3. AlphabeticalAnonymousJuly 2, 2023 at 1:56 PM

    I'm glad you called out the lazy 'Azcan' name - it got my dander up as soon as I started reading that paragraph.

    I expect it's unrelated, but the name "Marmillian" also reminds me of Amberstar - sort of a portmanteau of its dark sorceror Marmion and its good knight Sir Marillion.

    Finally: reading about this game may be more interesting than either SI or Ambermoon. It's too bad that it doesn't sound from the accounts as though it's actually more fun to play.

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    1. "Azcan" reminded me of David Bradley and his "Felpurrs."

      Thank you for reminding me where I'd heard something like "Marmillian" before.

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    2. Darn it, made me dig out my box set. :)

      To be fair to the CRPG developers, the names came from the Hollow World supplement. They created several "historical" cultures like the Azcans (Aztec/Incan), Nathan's (Pharonic Egypt), and Milenians (Greek/early Roman).

      It goes without saying that if published today, the setting would need some extensive cultural sensitivity review.

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    3. Nithians for Pharonic Egypt. Damn you auto correct!

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    4. Damn. I was going to have a field day making fun of "Nathans."

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    5. An ancient culture based around hot-dog eating contests.

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    6. Hehe, indeed. And it would have been right on time for the 2023 contest on the Fourth of July, too (if it's an online autocorrect, maybe that had an impact?)!

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  4. Sure, naming your mysterious ancient civilization 'Azcan' might seem lazy, but I actually do prefer fantasy names which evoke an already established notion of real life instead of completely made-up, outlandish or unpronouncable gibberish (Lovecraft's exempt, ahem).

    I remember 'Pillars of Eternity' being somewhat guilty of this, where everything was called something like Fyntanalador without rhyme or reason, high-fantasy for its own sake, and you just couldn't place it.

    It's certainly a fine line to walk, which Tolkien had down to a tee, but it's the same reason a nordish warrior type with an Asian sounding name just doesn't feel right.

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    1. I thought Pillars actually did a reasonable job of this -- there are two main cultures in the first game, a generic high fantasy empire (whose names and language are kind of generic faux Old English Forgotten Realms type stuff, which given that they were intentionally doing a Baldur's Gate spiritual successor makes sense) which was colonizing a nation whose indigenous people used a language that was highly reminiscent of Welsh and Irish/Gaelic.

      So the names were reasonably well grounded, and the historical and linguistic associations they picked lined up well with the fiction. It's just that if you're not familiar with Celtic languages they can probably seem a little ridiculous, since they're very long and often lacking in vowels.

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    2. On a tangent, I've been reading the Timothy Zahn Thrawn novels lately, and I love how he structures the naming system. I don't know if it's unique to these books or if he took the concept from another source. I suppose if I were Chiss, my name would be:

      Bolingbroke'Che'ster

      Giving me a "core name" of "Kechest" or maybe "Rokeches."

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    3. AlphabeticalAnonymousJuly 4, 2023 at 1:04 PM

      Sounds like you mean the original, '90s books? They also got Zahn to write a book or two more recently, featuring Thrawn, for the universe reboot. After remembering the old books so fondly, the new ones (like new SW movies) were a big disappointment.

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    4. No, I'm talking about the new ones. I read the 1990s ones when they were new, and I don't remember them explaining the source of Chiss names.

      I agree the newer ones aren't as good as the old ones, but I still think they're pretty good. They've certainly kept me occupied as I walk up and down my road, trying to get my 10,000 steps.

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  5. I'd assume the compass is as big as it is to both fill otherwise empty space, and to compensate for the fact most people would have played this on a CRT TV with less than stellar video quality that would have made a smaller one harder to read, especially if you were on the other side of a room from it

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    1. My first thought was clarity on a CRT too, but I couldn't reconcile it with the amount of smaller text.

      Delete
  6. "I suppose you'll tell me that the surface at the top of that ladder is a different color than the surface of the mesa south of it."

    You suppose entirely correctly: the north mesa is covered in yellow grass, the south one is simply brown.

    As other people have mentioned, to be true to old D&D-no-A, you should be getting the bulk of your XP from loot and who gets the killing blow in battle shouldn't make any difference at all.

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    1. Those are actually little yellow flames. I don't know why they chose to portray lava in such a manner, when the color red is easily available. Maybe they wanted to trick the player?

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    2. Yeah, while the terrain definitely looks different, it doesn’t really scream LAVA! KEEP OUT! to the player…

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    3. Ah, yes. Different color? Yes.

      Something even someone with full color vision should have realized at a glance was dangerous? No.

      Delete
  7. How many other CRPGs had two separate and substantially different party-based combat modes?
    It sounds like a really weird mix of styles.

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    1. There aren't many I can think of and this game certainly isn't the best advertisement for having different styles. The indoors combat is in my experience a bit too easy to cheese with ranged spam or combat waltzing so you can get the same amount of XP for much less risk indoors. Overall I quite enjoy this game but it does have some odd design decisions (like two combat systems and giving almost all the xp to the person getting the killing blow).

      Delete
    2. Well, I remember "The Magic of Scheherazade" for the NES. It alternates top-down action combat (similar to the 1st Legend of Zelda) and first-person turn-based combat (similar to Dragon Quest 2-3).

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    3. Yeah. Have we even seen another one? There have been some games that have offered one style for ship combat and another for party combat, and others that had a "quick" or simplified combat in addition to regular combat. Some of the Synergistic/World Builder games had a strategic combat system and a local combat system (as did Disciples of Steel), but I can't think of any other game that has had separate combat systems for the same group of characters.

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    4. It's like building two games and mashing them together. Sounds like a lot of work for a dubious payoff.

      Maybe they were able to leverage actual code from EoB?

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    5. It's certainly possible, the Genesis had a lot of Amiga ports because of some hardware similarities and there was an Amiga version of Eye of the Beholder, so depending on how it was programmed it might not have been the hardest to salvage the code from it

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    6. I think Genesis was of the era where all the games were written in assembly... But it looks like the Genesis CPU was a Moto 68k, same as the Amiga, so maybe a lot of it could come over.

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    7. I always thought it might've gone down some like this: WES production meeting 'We need dungeons, but we don't have the budget to make them. '

      'Uh, what about schmooshing in the crawler stuff from EOB?'

      '... Make some owlbear sprites and ship it'

      Delete
    8. Xenogears has different combat systems for when the party's on foot and in their mechs. While they're both still turn based, mech combat has fuel considerations and a different approach to restoring HP (since you're repairing machines instead of healing people). And if that's not enough, it has yet another mech combat system that plays like a 3D fighting game, used just in one part of the main story, and opened up for fun near the end.

      ...Typing this reminded me that Crescent Hawk's Inception also had infantry/mech combat, but I'd rather not think about that game again.

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    9. In most games with two different combat systems it feels like at least one side of the encounter changes (often both). So the foot combat has spacemen fighting aliens whereas the space combat is ship vs ship. In this game it's the same party fighting the same monsters but with two different styles. So a dragon in the overworld is a save vs. breath-weapons disaster waiting to happen but a dragon in a tunnel is free xp.

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    10. Good way to say it. I talk about the relative ease of dungeon combat in the next entry.

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    11. Sword of Vermilion for the Sega Genesis had two combat modes

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    12. It's not a role-playing game, but there was a Jurassic Park game on the Super Nintendo that did this; the outdoor areas were top-down and the buildings were first-person. The first-person areas were much easier because there were only, like, two different kinds of dinosaurs in the first-person areas, and the tougher dinosaurs could only be found outdoors.

      Delete
    13. While not party-based, all four games in the Questron lineage had substantially different combat in the overworld, in towns and castles, and in dungeons.

      Delete
  8. "he heard there's a secret entrance somewhere behind a waterfall. Damn it. I must have passed six waterfalls."

    To echo the first comment, I'm rather surprised that you hadn't already instinctively checked six waterfalls for secret entrances by the time you heard the news.

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  9. Remember me? I live! I tend to read this blog either at work or on mobile, which make it difficult for me to leave comments.

    I'm pretty sure this was the first game I ever finished, back when I was a teenager. Although I enjoyed arcade-style games and platformers, I sucked at them. So the fact that I had finished a game on my punishing Sega Genesis was a cause for celebration. I had grinded a lot, and the game was on the easy side (as you've seen thus far), so I beat the boss at the end rather easily. I then was presented with a kind of password to use to import my characters to the "upcoming" sequel - which never was released. I was so disappointed! I think the next game I finished was Final Fantasy VII.

    There's an exploit I had discovered with enemy pathing. I would cross the bridge, find a giant or something, run back over and stand on the riverbank. He would just stand there across from me, walking in place, while I peppered him with arrows and a few spells. They'll walk onto the bridge to come after you if you stand too near it, but they seem to have trouble completing the process. I only did that a couple times, because it took forever at my low level and it was just too cheesy.

    I'm not sure if you mentioned, but some of the character portraits (and other artwork) were lifted right out of Eye of the Beholder. It's the same developer using their own art, so why not?

    I'm sure I missed some of those hidden entrances when I was playing. I found that so unrealistic. They're hidden because of the game's perspective, while your characters were looking right at them.

    This game ignited my imagination and my desire to explore strange and unknown places. There's another dungeon-type place where you have yet to discover. I won't say anything about it, of course, but it's something that might be underwhelming to people today, but my younger self was completely enthralled and amazed. If I had a "top ten gaming moments" list, that would be on it. I'll let you know when you get there. ;)

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    1. I noticed that too about the artwork.

      Many of the weapons and armour are right out of the Eye of the Beholder games, although some (all?) of them have been modified a bit. Armour with some added colour, etc.

      The same goes for some of the wall textures in first person.

      I'm pretty sure that the compass is also from Eye of the Beholder.

      Delete
    2. Welcome Back Amy! It's always nice to see an old regular appear in the comments.

      Delete
    3. Hi, Amy. Yeah, it's been about 10 years. I'm glad to hear you've still been reading, at least. I know you're still playing, too, as I watched one of your Ambermoon videos a few days ago when I couldn't figure out how to get past something. Good to see you again.

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    4. It seems to me that both forms of combat in this game are susceptible to exploits. My party just defeated a red dragon with a variant of the old "combat waltz."

      The artwork issue was mentioned on a previous entry, and I agree there's nothing wrong with it. If it helps get the game to market faster, I certainly don't care if a sword looks like the same sword as in a previous game.

      Delete
    5. Thanks, Fireball and CRPGA! It's great to hear back from you. But ten years, whaaaaat? I'll try to stick around and maybe read these posts at home, so I can easily comment without forgetting what I wanted to say!

      You're delving into more games lately I'm familiar with and am a fan of. I can't wait to see you get to Arena! Some posts I actively avoid (such as Dungeon Master II and Ultima VII), since I plan on playing them one day and don't want to spoil anything for myself.

      I'm glad one of my videos helped! There aren't many Ambermoon videos out there on YouTube.

      Delete
    6. Oops, just realized that's not the same Arena that I'm familiar with...

      Delete
  10. PS - For every comment I left, a got an email that stated: "Your message to crpgaddict@gmail.com has been blocked." Is this normal? It seems to have something to do with the "Notify Me" option for comments.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I'm sorry, Amy, I don't know. I can't imagine why you'd be getting those messages since clearly your comments were posted and I don't have moderation turned on for comments on posts less than a week old.

      Delete
    2. Oh no problem at all. I just wanted to alert you to something you might want to be aware of. It seems to have something to do with Google not "trusting" Yahoo. Your email is Google, mine is Yahoo... and I also post from a Google account. Who knows?

      The other comment here that I just responded to, got a failure again, saying "Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is not accepted due to domain's DMARC policy." I'll just delete the emails, no problem. I still get notification emails of new comments, so that's the important thing.

      Delete
  11. 100FloorsOfFrightsJuly 2, 2023 at 10:58 PM

    Does this game let you burn scrolls as single-use items, or do they only allow you to learn spells you don't already know?

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    1. Yes, you can use them as items if you already have the spell in your book. I don't think they're necessarily single-use. A couple of them lasted for two uses.

      Delete
    2. A level 10 rogue can use scrolls as well but there is a chance of failure

      Delete
  12. I don't think there's a time limit as such, but as you've discovered there is story progression based on your actions outside the castle.

    If you are just running into random encounters or going back over places you've already discovered, the "clock" shouldn't advance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That reminds me to the story progression in uuw2

      Delete
    2. At least I can cast "Haste" with abandon.

      Delete
  13. "What kind of hydra has only one head?"

    It looks a little dehydrated.

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    1. Hehe, no wonder, with that Eternal Red Sun blazing all the time. As we can see on the people in town, it can make you loose your head (or several).

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    2. That could appear in QFG1 as a joke Erasmus/Fenrus tells!
      (This is Chad, can’t seem to get my Google account to post from my iPhone)

      Delete
  14. don't forget to map some of the caves. the auto map will forget once visited caves.

    you could have taken the demi human choices without fear. you will reach the end of the game long before you reach the level cap. halflings have the lowest level cap. Elves are quite useful fighter/mages albeit they have the worst XP advancement of all classes. if you want to reach level cap you'll have to grind XP at certain spots with high XP encounters. it's gonna be boring. Since you already wandered through most of the map, you'll already know the spots.

    A general advice. Beware of level draining monsters.

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    Replies
    1. I'm generally finding combat to be easy enough that I'm not sorry I didn't waste a lot of time trying to optimize the party. I am a bit annoyed that I took a thief, and she failed to disarm most of the traps in the one dungeon (so far) that has a lot of them.

      Still, it's good to know about the high level cap. I know a red dragon I could probably kill half a dozen times if I need an extra level.

      Delete
  15. I really enjoy these playthrough postings and I'm glad you've kept doing them. Although I'm moderately immune from seeing your reviews as "oh look, another game for me to play!" since I have a couple thousand hours of games still awaiting my attention, this one's starting to interest me. I might have to hunt down how to acquire this one. Thank you!

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  16. It's really delightful you've got to this title. I have fond memories of it, even if I wouldn't consider it a big name title.

    Yes much of the dungeon, character and item set is cribbed from Eye of the Beholder. I believe your fighter is Anya, and cleric to be Ileria, both resurrectable characters from the first game.

    I don't begrudge that myself, and probably helps in the familiar memorirs!

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  17. Oh, and I don't know why, but those character postings of I have this gear, that really works for me. You've kept it up for a while in similar games and I continue to enjoy it thanks!

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  18. The whole "the character that makes the kill gets the XP mechanic" can be unnecessarily annoying. I didn't see anyone mention it above, but this mechanic was present also in Ultima 3. It always resulted in the Fighter types (and their Bows) maxing out levels way before everyone else. You had to adjust your combat mechanics - and often take extra damage - trying to get your poor priest or mage leveled up. Glad they eventually dropped this and it didn't show up in more games.

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    1. It's present in every Ultima between III and VII, after which the series goes back to a single character. It bothered me most in IV because you don't have any choice about the characters you take.

      Delete

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