A literal treasure hunt in a game that plays a lot like a treasure hunt. |
I started Challenge of the Five Realms over again for a few reasons. First, after I finished Farinor for the first time, I realized I probably had left Ballytogue too quickly, failing to stock up on weapons, armor, spells, and other items first. But when I went back to Ballytogue, I found everyone slaughtered and the shops therefore closed. That was no fun. Also, I read the manual more carefully and found out about the portrait editor that I could have used during character creation. It supposedly allows you to import pictures while also editing the default portraits and constructing new portraits.
Playing with the portrait editor did me no good. |
Unfortunately, none of it really worked. The import button did nothing, and none of the bizarre and frankly alarming changes I made to the default portraits seemed to save. But the exercise did make me realize there was a choice of portraits at the beginning. I ended up choosing the black portrait, partly because I think black character options are under-represented in CRPGs of the time, and partly because it amused me to think that my jackass father had been cuckolded (although, admittedly, we know nothing about what Queen Feya looked like). It would have explained the king's treatment of his son in the backstory.
As I explored Ballytogue for the second time, I decided to see what would happen if I returned the brooch to Ms. Frazetti. She was very grateful and my courage, leadership, and morality all went up. But I was then unable to enlist Sir John Oldcastle. I debated for a long time whether to move forward without him (a commenter opined that it would have left me walking dead). I finally decided to reload and give the brooch to Sir John, even though it annoyed me that the game would punish the player for making a role-playing choice. Later, when I met Cagliostra, she didn't have any special dialogue involving Oldcastle, and I suspect I would have been able to recruit her without him, and thus the game is winnable even if you return the brooch to its rightful owners. On the other hand, without Oldcastle's direction, I wouldn't have known to go next to Farinor.
And yet I then reloaded and gave it to someone else instead. |
Every adventurer without a shovel eventually wishes he had a shovel. |
I also ran into an NPC I'd missed the first time, Spiro the Clairvoyant. He warned me that Grimnoth's "plague of darkness" was approaching from the south, and that if I planned to journey south (which I did), I should do so quickly. He also warned against a violent clash with Duke Gormond, the usurper looking to take control of Alonia. "Gormond must understand that this is not the time for struggles of power and vanity."
The overworld map. |
Something is going on with this guy. |
My cousin commits treason. |
Innocence is lost. |
The NPCs were all rude to the prince, arguing that it doesn't matter who your ruler is if you live in squalor. Plus, apparently Cagliostra had been popular, and the people resented my father for banishing her.
Typical attitude for a Farinor resident. |
You're walking on thin ice. |
Finally, a couple of NPCs alerted me to a growing rebellion in the town. They pointed me to Thurias Foolkiller (awesome last name), who knows the leader. Thurias at first refused to say anything, and I couldn't get the "Truth" spell to work on him. But he responded to threatening and told me to check out a hut to the north. The hut turned out to be full of traps, one of which damaged my party severely.
That wasn't cool. |
I returned to Thurias and threatened him again, and he finally told me that the rebellion was led by Cynna Bane, an NPC who had previously insulted me when I entered her house. I returned to her and she confessed to leading the rebels. "I support your goals," the game had the Prince say without my input. "I had no idea life was so hard in Farinor." Cynna said that I should take action. "Kill that terrible mayor and bring me his seal. Appoint me mayor, and I'll rebuild this town."
That was pretty easy. |
After our previous spat, I was happy to remove the mayor. He didn't last long against the three of us. On his body, I found a treasure map that led me to a corner of his garden. Fortunately, I had the shovel. (Disclosure: failure to purchase the shovel on my previous trip is one of the reasons I re-started.) I dug up a treasure chest with a lot of gems and gold; the game has not been very tight with its economy so far. Now with plenty of wealth, I bought horses and a wagon for my party at the town's stables. You don't see the horses in the game, but they speed up trips between maps.
Sounds like just what we need in a game with a time limit. |
Instead of remaining in town as mayor, Cynna joined the party. I noted that she has stronger magic skills than anyone else so far.
In the southwest corner of the village, an old man was looking for medicine for his ill granddaughter. I gave him a Potion of Healing and he told me that I'd be able to find Cagliostra in Southfrost, a village at the southeast edge of the world. I don't know what happens if you don't save the one Potion of Healing you find in Ballytogue for this occasion. I guess you have to explore the world and find or buy another one.
Southfrost turned out to be a snow-covered village on the edge of a sea. It was occupied by "Eskimos" living in igloos and a group of priests of the Cult of Lamsha, guardian of the sun. The priests were freaked out by the approaching pall of darkness from the south; they insisted that it heralded the return of "the evil one, the reptile King Vendret." One of them suggested that "Grimnoth" might be an alternate name for Vendret.
Arriving in Southfrost. |
The Eskimos--whom, I note, the Prince addressed in far less respectful language than the priests--were concerned about the darkness but also had more mundane worries. A group of yeti-like creatures called "reyals" had recently attacked the village, killing a family, and there were more out there. One of them told me that he'd help us find Cagliostra if we killed the remaining reyals.
This entry is now the only Google result for "Hold your tongue, Eskimo." |
We found the creatures to the northeast, and it took me several tries to kill them without suffering a party loss myself. Spells, which I'll discuss more in a bit, turned out to make a big difference. The real-time-with-pause-and-commands system is quite a bit like Darklands (also a MicroProse title) from the same year, and we can only assume that the two development teams shared some code and resources. I am relatively fond of it so far.
Combat with the two reyals. |
The Eskimo rewarded me with a magic orb that absorbs damage from traps. This was necessary because Cagliostra's caverns were full of traps, and I don't think I would have been able to cast enough "Disarm" spells to remove them all even if I had successfully found them all with the "Search" command. It would be nice if the globe continued to serve this purpose throughout the game.
This message came up about 50 times as we explored the caves. |
We found Cagliostra in the caves, living with a bunch of other witches. They were aware of my father's recent demise. At first, they threatened me, assuming that I shared my father's hatred of magic. When I assured them otherwise and reminded Cagliostra of her friendship with my mother, she relented and gave me a chance to "prove [my] worth by traveling into the darkness" along with a "sphere of impenetrable light."
I thought I would have to journey to the darkness, but the game dealt with it via a cut scene. The encroaching "darkness" isn't just darkness but something along the lines of The Mist in the Stephen King story--a deadly miasma populated by demons.
This was freaky. |
When I returned to Cagliostra's lair, I found that she had been transformed into a beautiful younger woman, which she said was her true form. She said that to defeat the darkness, I would have to find the five legendary crowns, which would first involve finding the portals that connect the realms, for which I would need a "Revisibility" spell. Obviously, I would have to find a way to get my own crown back from Duke Gormond. To weaken Grimnoth himself, I will need a "Spell of Restoration" (I'm not really sure why), whose components I might be able to get from a powerful mystic at Thornkeep. Cagliostra said that I would need a second spell ("Slay Evil") to destroy Grimnoth after weakening him, but she'd need to do some more delving to figure out that spell. Finally, she also said that my mother's spirit was not at rest and I'd have to consult her for one of the "Slay Evil" spell components. "Our search should begin in Fremont," she concluded. "The greatest sorcerers in the land once lived there."
She idly wondered if "the noble and just Sir Valakor still lives." At my prompting, she mentioned that Valakor was my mother's "true love," but their relationship had been platonic. Nonetheless, that wasn't enough for old Clesodor, who had banished Valakor.
"And...uh...what did he look like?" |
Cagliostra didn't join my party in a conventional way, saying she had to work with the other witches to discover more about Grimnoth, but she gave me a mirror that I can use to communicate with her, and in which she will occasionally pop up with advice.
Cagliostra has some advice as we enter Fremont. |
Fremont was in the far southwest of the map, and I figured it made sense to go there next, as it would soon fall to the darkness. There, we found another squalid and dilapidated city, its economy devastated when King Clesodor banished magic. As in Farinor, I was insulted by many of the villagers and even attacked a few times.
These five-on-one combats are starting to feel unfair. |
The townspeople wanted me to restore their right to practice sorcery, but I couldn't figure out a mechanism to do that. The mayor, meanwhile, wanted my help in destroying the leaders of the hidden mages' guild.
A sorcerer named Deostrus offered to assist me if I would travel to the city of Pendar and bring back his lost love, Marinda, whose father--the harbormaster of Pendar--is forcing to marry the odious son of the mayor of Greenberry. Deostrus gave me a letter to bring to Marinda. Meanwhile, a sorceress named Helfura offered to join the party and I accepted.
Helfura's stats. |
Pendar was a harbor village with all the buildings elevated on a massive wharf. It had the first full set of services--spells, weapons, armor, healing, lodging, stables, pawn--since Ballytogue, and I bought everything that was worth buying, but that didn't put a scratch in my money.
Most of my party lacked shields, which I rectified here. |
There was a bit of a bug here. When I spoke to the harbormaster, a random NPC walking around the docks, he mocked me, said "so you found my ledger," and attacked me. This was the first I'd heard of the ledger. I was forced to kill him. Later, an NPC named Horric Fairlost asked me to break into the harbormaster's office and find his ledger to prove his illegal dealings. To open the safe, I first had to find Marinda, who happily joined the party (and gave us the safe key) once she learned we were sent by Deostrus. The safe held the ledger and a lot more gold and gems, which we didn't really need. I'm not sure why we even get to keep it instead of redistributing it to the town.
I hope there's a better opportunity to spend this wealth coming up. |
A few other NPCs talked about the mer-creatures that live off the shore, and a shop sold passage to some nearby islands. I suspect I'll have to come back at some point to visit the underwater realm, but it seemed too soon for that now.
It's not really that much of a risk when the world is going to be destroyed anyway. |
At this point, I spent a lot of time with spells. Characters can learn spells as soon as you have all the components necessary to cast the spells. Components consist of things like candles, conch shells, dragon scales, various plants, gems, and even some mundane items like shoes. When you buy "spells" from shops, you aren't really buying the spells themselves but the components. Some of the components are amusing. To cast "Open Lock," you need mineral oil and a skeleton key, which sounds a lot like you're just opening the lock conventionally. "Create Food" requires yeast and seeds; if it took several months to work, you'd think maybe it wasn't really a "spell," either. "Explode" uses sulfur, flint, a ruby, and a firefly. I'd been picking up components across the various maps, and some of the NPCs came with them.
Some of the spell components I carry. |
There are 33 spells in the game, organized in three difficultly levels. Whether a character can learn a spell (or just waste the components trying) is governed by the "Learn Spell" ability. Helfura came with a skill of 100 and Cynna with about 70, so slowly I had these two learn each of the spells that were available to them. I still haven't had a reason to cast most of them, except for "Cure" and a couple of offensive spells in combat. Effectiveness of cast spells is governed by the "Spell Casting" skill. You can also apparently bind spells to rings and other jewelry with the "Spell Binding" skill.
Deostrus gives me some advice. |
Miscellaneous notes:
- Occasionally, NPCs have something to say about the events going on around us. I like their interjections. There haven't been many games so far in my chronology that give true personalities to the NPCs.
Cynna prizes strength and self-reliance. |
- Although I haven't found a lot of inventory items like helms, belts, and boots, the inventory screen promises them to come. I did find a few rings in this session, including a Ring of Protection and two Rings of Curing. The multiple inventory screens--including individual pouches and backpacks but a shared chest--remain needlessly confusing.
Slowly acquiring inventory items. |
- I really like the title cards as we enter each new city. They do a good job setting the stage for the encounters there.
Arriving at Pendar. |
- The game has very good graphics in general. As I mentioned in my review of Prophecy of the Shadow, I like that graphics have become good enough to establish a sense of atmosphere.
A kayak, an igloo, and footsteps in the snow help establish the harsh and frozen land. |
If it's not clear by now, this is a very text-heavy and plot-heavy game, punctuated with occasional combats and inventory puzzles. I haven't put up anywhere near the total number of dialogue-based screenshots. The good news is that the text is well-written and I like the complexity of the plot: I not only have to assemble the crowns but also deal with a would-be usurper, fix the problems created by my father, and apparently address some lingering issues related to my mother.
On the other hand, the game has a certain "treasure hunt" nature as you go from one plot point to the next. This linear approach undermines some of the traditional RPG mechanics, like combat and inventory, which I otherwise like. My perception at this point is that the developers should have done away with the "encroaching darkness," and let the player explore in a nonlinear manner to assemble the items and knowledge he needs to defeat Grimnoth. Then again, it's possible that the game is less linear than I believe it is, and that the "obvious" path is only a suggested one. I'll know more as I experience more.
Time so far: 8 hours
Party members making comments on situations reminds me of King of Dragon Pass, another sort-of quasi-RPG where you guide a barbarian clan through a fantasy world. You've got your ruling council members who make comments on situations based on their purview. The warrior will say attack we are strong, or don't attack too many warriors are wounded right now, the farmer will advise planting more crops, etc. The most entertaining is the trickster, whose advice is usually wrong but hilarious. Making him ruling council leader unlocks a branch of unique content that you won't see otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI wish more party members would talk. Ultima V or VI did this, a little, and Baldur's Gate did this a little more. But I like to chat with my party members. I guess it's too much of a pain to write all that dialogue. Sigh.
Outer Worlds, the new Obsidian game, has a crazy amount of both random and triggered companion intra-party dialogue.
DeleteNot a PC originated series, but the Tales of games does exactly that with their party "skits".
DeleteI think one of the first jrpgs that implemented something like that was Dragon Quest VII (2000) where you can choose to chat with the party in any moment in search for clues about what to do next or simply to know their reactions about what's going on.
DeleteAs I recall, Traysia for the Sega Genesis (released February 1992) did the same thing. There's a command to talk amongst the party to remind yourself of what's going on, get clues, etc.
DeleteYes, you are right. It has been a bit naive of me to think that a late 2000 game could have been among the first to implement such an option.
DeletePhantasy Star 4 had something similar, but it was purely a reminder system.
DeleteI don't actually think combat is properly RTwP here. In my last (short) playthrough it seemed to me that it's actually turn-based under the hood, and turns are separated into clear action and movement phases. And the manual mentions rolling for initiative IIRC.
ReplyDeleteI guess that raises an interesting question: what game IS "properly RTwP"? I guess a true "real-time" game would impose no limits on the number of times you could act in a fixed time period except those imposed by your own speed with the controller buttons. But even that wouldn't make sense in a party game where the computer controls the other party members and would certainly implement its own limits to how many times it would act on behalf of those characters per second or minute, thus creating a de facto "turn."
DeleteThe Infinity Engine games aren't truly RTwP either, despite what almost everyone says about them. What would a true RTwP system look like? And what DO we call games that use systems like the Infinity Engine, which might be turn-based but don't automatically stop for those turns, and appear to be real-time graphically?
IE games are more RTwP than Challenge though, as in IE games every character has his/her own turn timer. So different party members start and end their turns at different times. I don't mind calling this system RTwP even if it simulates turns under the hood.
DeleteOn the other hand, in Challenge - at least that was my impression - everyone starts and ends the turn at the same time. Characters just attack or cast spell in the order of initiative, then move. So it's effectively same as Wizardry (plus the movement phase), just doesn't pause automatically for you to give orders to characters.
I think something like Pillars of Eternity is properly RTwP as character actions don't depend on an "X times per turn" mechanics, but rather have a precise duration in (milly)seconds they take to execute.
The best RTwP out there is 7.62 High Calibre for me. There, actions are measured in seconds, and you can set auto-pausing at different events (character finished an action, enemy spotted, character wounded etc). You can also change orders in the middle of an action.
DeleteRunning from point A to B might take 16.81 seconds. But halfway there, an enemy shoots at you. As soon as the bullets start flying, you pause and look for the enemy's position. You seehim and decide to go prone and shoot back. Going prone takes 2.3 seconds. Readying your rifle takes 1.2. The time it takes to shoot depends on how aimed the shot is going to be: snap shots are faster than aimed shots but have lower accuracy.
It's a true real time system with a pause function. I enjoy it a lot more than those with underlying turns, because in those, characters will spend a lot of time standing in front of each other with swords but not striking. NWN is very guilty of this since turns take 6 seconds, and the attack animations take 1 or 2. So more than half the combat time is spent by characters standing around, not doing anything. It just looks stupid and makes combat move much slower than it should.
In 7.62 High Calibre there are no underlying turns, and you are always aware of how long any given action is going to take. Character stats can also influence action speed, a character with a high skill at using guns is going to reload his pistol much faster than a character who isn't very skilled with guns.
7.62 is a very odd game. Many games track your total ammunition, some even have different types for modifiers. 7.62 tracks the position of individual bullets in the magazine, as well as exactly were you're storing that magazine on your body.
DeleteYep, it's a. Very detailed game. Tracking the exact position of a bullet in your magazine means you can have AP and HP ammo in the same mag, instead of only one ammo type per mag. It's very cool and allows for much more customization of your loadout.
DeleteI like the RTWP Operation Flashpoint (a strategy game, not at a all a RPG).
DeleteBasically, the battle happens in real time, but from time to time the game pauses so you can adjust your orders... the trick is that the more organized your force (GHQ close to the line and not disorganized, units from the same division next to each other and not spread out,...) the more often you can pause to adjust your orders, and in some circumstances you can pause 3 or 4 times when your opponent can only pause once, allowing you a great lot of flexibility vs a more juggernauthish player.
I mean Flashpoint Campaigns, NOT Operation Flashpoint which is a RTS.
DeleteFor me the most memorable inter party dialogues are still in Planescape Torment. BG I and especially II were a good step forward at the time but PST beat them all.
ReplyDeleteits so nice waking up to a new solid entry about a proper crpg
ReplyDeleteGod has given you the most beautiful gift--time.
ReplyDeleteUse it wisely. Don't waste it. You only have one chance.
Tempus, give me strength!!!
DeleteJack Chick, is that you?
DeleteThis could be spam. Or it could be a valid comment on every single one of my entries. Hard to tell.
DeleteThe calls are coming from the basement! Get out of the house!
DeleteI'd go with "spam," but I like the sentiment. I used to get posts like this in my forums; apparently approving them allowed auto-approval of future posts with sales pitches. I don't think your forum has that weakness.
DeleteI'd say this is another comment alluding to the game's harsh time limit.
Delete"...Oldcastle thought I might find the witch Cagliostra. (I keep wanting to call her Calistoga.)"
ReplyDeleteChet, if you're at all curious about the origins of her name, you should take a moment to read up on Count Cagliostro (Yes, I'm going on assumption but it does seem to fit). That dude had a pretty crazy ride back in the 18th Century.
I'd like to suggest that you come to San Leo in Italy to see where Cagliostro was left to die.
DeleteIt's a wonderful place near Rimini and the Republic of San Marino, "far" from the usual routes.
I really liked this post of yours about Challenge of the Five Realms. Your adventures from town to town have become very easy to follow and very entertaining. I think it was a very good decision to start the game again to prepare you better. What I would like is for you to try to see if dead ends really occur by not doing certain actions on time or making the wrong decisions. I think it is something that is not strongly documented and that would be very useful for other future players. Maybe you could do it by reloading saved games before certain points after finishing your walkthrough. Thanks for your efforts.
ReplyDeleteWow, the Prince is kind of an asshole, huh? Are you only showing us all the rude and aggressive dialogue options, or is he just... like that?
ReplyDeleteI think most of the dialogue is automatic. You don't get to choose what to say, the prince is just kind of a dick.
DeleteMost aristocrats and upper class in general loathe anyone below them in society, which is most people. Behaving like a complete asshole is default behavior. They *have* to - how else do they show off where they are in society? Only the people at the top can get away with open contempt like that. It's a class marker.
DeleteHe vacillates. My screen shots tend to show when he's acting like a jerk, but I've quoted some of the more helpful dialogue in the text parts of the entry. Note that these aren't dialogue OPTIONS but just what he says.
DeleteI think the jerk lines might be a result of failing a personality skill check under the hood. Just a guess though.
DeleteThis is relevant to your previous post, not this one, but as a diehard fan of the original Final Fantasy, I really wouldn't suggest playing it for the purposes of your blog. It was popular, yes, and I consider it a bona fide classic, but I also don't feel that it's terribly ambitious or influential, either to computer or console RPGs, and it doesn't really offer much in the way of innovationsIt's a fairly straightforward "consolized" experience of 1st Edition AD&D with relatively little depth that also happens to be very grind-heavy unless you know the usual exploits. (Of the three FF entries on the Famicom, it's II that most resembles what the series became.) If you've played a Gold Box game, you've played what Final Fantasy was aiming to be.
ReplyDeleteEven that game that shall not be named would be a far more valuable choice, since fewer people have played that one. Everyone has heard of it, yes, but I don't think very many people have played it.
What is the game that shall not be named? Dragon Quest?
DeleteAny of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I understand that they came up a lot whenever the Addict mentioned either Japanese games or console games, so he made a joke rule forbidding commenters from mentioning it more than once a week.
Delete^Kearuda
DeleteStill getting used to this format.
From a 2015 entry on "Tunnels & Trolls":
Delete"I'm not really going to delete anyone's posting, but I am getting rather sick of commenters segueing to discussions of JRPGs that barely have anything to do with my posting, and SMT seems to be the most frequently mentioned in such non-sequiturs."
Not only that, but I think you've already heard enough about the original Final Fantasy (and all of the other heavy hitters from this era) from other commenters.
ReplyDeleteMy pick for a blog-worthy console RPG is Arsys Software's Star Cruiser. Polygonal 3D in 1990! Given that it's a port of an X68000 game, it actually is a CRPG, too.
And then others have mentioned The Screamer.
It seems a fairly interesting and unique game, I'm not sure why it is not more known.
ReplyDeleteI like how you have to go around with a sort of a bad rap and facing unsympathetic NPCs, usually you are either a revered "chosen one", or an unknown scrub.
Don't know if it's just your writing, but that game sounds fun and interesting
ReplyDeleteIndeed. I consider buying a copy from GOG, on the other hand I don't have time right now so I might wait for a potential discount, if I haven't forgotten it by then.
DeleteGOG should really time their discounts with the Addicts playlist :)
Probably a coincidence, but Steve Gerber wrote a character at Marvel called Foolkiller (well, group of characters, it's one of those names that gets assumed by different people). There was a Foolkiller limited series of some acclaim that ran from '90 to '91.
ReplyDeleteSo did Magic Candle 3 get booted down the queue?
ReplyDeleteYes, he said so a few entries back. I don't remember what he actually said, but I think he wanted to approach it with a fresh mind.
Delete"And...uh...what did he look like?"
ReplyDeleteAnother caption that got a chuckle out of me.