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The victorious party. |
SEGA Enterprises (developer and publisher)
Released 1987 for SEGA Master System in Japan; 1988 for the SEGA Master System in the United Kingdom and North America; 1994 for the SEGA Genesis in Japan
Date Started: 4 March 2025
Date Ended: 30 March 2025
Total Hours: 27
Difficulty: Moderate (3.0/5)
Final Rating: (to come later)
Ranking at time of posting: (to come later)
When the final session began, I believed I had no place left to explore except what I didn't previously experience on Dezoris. I followed a rightmost pattern last time, so when I exit the city of Skure, I follow a leftmost pattern. After a lot of random combats, and without finding anything new, I find myself at the cave system that I abandoned the last time I was here.
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These guys did a lot of damage. |
A Dezorian greets me as I enter and tells me to go left at the first fork, but that just dumps me a bunch of levels into a dungeon from which I can find no escape (except to cast the EXIT spell). The other way isn't much better. I go up and down about 20 times, fighting endless battles against tough foes, before I finally find a chest at the end of a hallway. In it is the Laconian Shield.
As I exit the dungeon, I find myself suspicious that I never found any place to use my Ice Digger, nor did I find this Altiplano Plateau. After much experimentation, I discover that the Ice Digger works on some mountains, but these mountains are not distinguished graphically at all from the rest. I have to search the entire planet to verify which ones I can chop up. It takes a good couple hours to do this. It's stuff like this that makes me suspicious of quick playing times.
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Chopping through the ice, or at least some of it. |
The first passage that I find takes me to a large open area with lots of trees, plus one tree conspicuously alone in a clearing. Last session, I was told to use a crystal in front of it. I thought I had a crystal, but I guess I was thinking of the Amber Eye. So I can't do anything here yet.
The Ice Digger also lets you chunk up a huge area to the southwest of the map, in the center of which is a single cave. It is fortunately a short, single level, leading to a battle with a titan. The titan leaves a chest with a prism inside.
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Didn't even get a shot of the titan. |
Back on the surface, I return to the tree, use the prism, and . . . nothing. Confused, I look at my notes again. There was that whole business about the Twintown east siders being liars, and that's where I learned about using the prism. Lacking any other clues, I try using everything else in my inventory. Something finally happens when I used the Magic Torch. The tree turns green. I am able to pluck a nut from it and drop it into my Laconian Pot. So I guess that's progress. I can't remember why I wanted the nut.
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At last, I have avenged myself on Laerma. |
At this point, I have no more clues. I still haven't gotten through that walled dungeon in Palma, though, so I head back there to remind myself what the issue is. A guard kicked me out last time, but maybe he wants a nut.
The guard in question asks me for my roadpass. When I show it, he declares it a counterfeit and throws me in jail. So I try not giving it to him, and this results in a fairly easy combat.
We emerge on the inside of the compound, move north, and enter a cave. It disgorges us next to a field of lava, which we cross with the Hovercraft. In the middle of a clearing on the other side is yet another dungeon. This is the Baya Malay tower, although I don't know its name at the time. This becomes important later.
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I can't decide whether "Baya Malay" sounds more like a casino, a Disney hotel, or a South Pacific number. |
It's a long dungeon, maybe 10 levels. I lose track with all the ups and downs. I should map it—if I should map any dungeon in the game, it's this one—but my "follow the right wall" approach has worked so far, so I decide to keep using it until it doesn't. The dungeon is full of new and difficult foes, so much that after about 20 minutes, I end up fleeing every battle. I cheat a bit by allowing myself to reload if we fall down a pit trap.
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I did not get this the first time. |
We finally emerge into the open air, and there's nothing to do. We can't move. We don't appear on the screen. At first, I think the game has frozen, but it does allow me to use inventory. I try everything. The prism that we found on Dezoris shows us a floating castle in the sky.
Now how to get there? Fortunately, I've been reviewing my notes, so I know this one. I feed Myau the Nuts of Laerma. They transform him into a winged beast, who flies us to the castle.
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Myau's big moment. |
Halfway there, we're attacked by a gold dragon. He has a powerful fireball attack, and he keeps healing himself, but we're eventually able to kill him.
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Stand down, everyone. He's a good dragon! |
The party lands in a new town with houses. The NPCs:
- A series of ellipses
- "Don't believe your own eyes in the depth of the dungeons." I don't know what this means, but please can I be done with dungeons?
- "Don't go against Lassic!" Too late for that.
- The final house has a serpent in it.
At last, we enter what I guess is Lassic's palace, which is another goddamned dungeon. Again, it's huge. Note that there was no place to heal in Lassic's little village. The developers really expected the player to gird up for this expedition. It would have been nice if the developers had offered some high-level potions or something, as for the last 10 hours, I've been gaining money with nothing to spend it on.
Again, I continue to flee most battles—my spell points are distressingly low—though I can't avoid one with "Shadow." He's not too hard. "But I'm only Lassic's Shadow," he says as he dies.
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If he's Lassic's shadow, why does he look like Dr. Mad? |
My "follow the right wall" approach gets me in trouble a few times, as some of the levels loop around on themselves, but they're otherwise not very complicated, and I'm able to identify when it happens and put up imaginary walls so I can continue the pattern.
We finally find Lassic behind a magically locked door; opening it is damn near the last spell Noah could possibly cast. He's wearing his special armor. "Ah, my children. You have done very well to come this far. You are very lucky indeed. Do you really wish to kill an old man?" YES, we agree, and the battle begins. Lassic has 238 hit points. The first round, he casts a lightning bolt spell that kills all of us instantly. What. The. Hell.
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The party is wiped out by a pickle. |
Searching my notes, the only thing I can find is that "Lassic lives in fear of a crystal possessed by the soothsayer named Damor." I never found such a crystal.
I let myself look at a spoiler site long enough to see that I was supposed to find it in the Baya Malay tower, which I can't get into from this side. Shaking my fist at the screen, I EXIT the dungeon, FLY back down to Palma, and prepare to start all over again. (I verify that I still have some nuts first.) I still resist mapping. I'm not really sure why, except that it just doesn't feel like a game for which you should have to map.
This time, I follow the left walls. For some reason, I find myself fighting Dr. Mad again at a random place. But the system otherwise works. I eventually reach "The Great Damor." He has a number of questions that don't make any sense ("You are searching for Alex Ossale?"), and he kicks us out if we answer "wrong," but after a few tries, I get through them, and he gives us a magic crystal.
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I think the correct answer to this, counterintuitively, was "yes." |
I return to town for healing and then go through the whole sequence again: the prison tunnels to Baya Malay, the overland walk, the cave, the lava field, Baya Malay tower and its dozen or so levels, the prism, feeding Myau the nuts, flying to castle, the gold dragon, the useless town, and the half dozen or so levels of Lassic's castle. Finally, we're in front of Lassic again.
The crystal protects us some, but he's still a bastard, capable of massive damage (up to 100 or so hit points) to every party member with a single blast of his staff. Alis takes the least damage, probably because of the Laconian Armor. Odin misses so often with his Laconian Axe, which is supposed to be the best weapon in the game, that I switch him back to his laser rifle (which does less damage but never misses).
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Lassic's blast spell hits everyone. |
My protection spells don't seem to be of any use; they always disappear just before Lassic attacks. HELP (which increases strength) is a little useful. In three attempts, I can't do any better than Alis alive, Lassic and everyone else dead.
Instead of a victory screen, I get: "Lassic has died. Alis accomplished her wish. Nero is satisfied now in heaven. Hurry to the governor!"
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I should have just taken this as the winning screen. |
Fortunately, our magic flute gets us out of the dungeon, and Alis's FLY spell takes us back to a town for healing and resurrection.
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Something about a goat sword? |
We take the ship to Motavia and the Landrover to Paseo and the tunnel to the governor's mansion. When we get there, it's empty. "It has something strange. Where is the governor, I wonder?" Then we fall down a hole to another goddamned dungeon. Let me assure you that every single one of you, even those who never encouraged me to play Phantasy Star at all, not to mention various members of your family, are mentioned in the tirade that follows.
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Specifically, its use of English. |
Fortunately, it's a short dungeon—a few encounters, a few locked doors, not much else. It ends in a room where at last we confront the evil Darkfalz.
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I don't mind that this is my last time doing this. |
"Who?" you may be wondering. Come on. You know—Darkfalz. That demonic character who has never once been mentioned at all, and who appears here with no dialogue or introduction. That guy.
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The game won't even tell me how many hit points he has. |
He's a bit easier than Lassic. He can attack twice per round for very heavy damage, but only one character on each attack. He dodges almost all my attacks, so I have Alis and Noah cast spells while Odin uses his laser rifle and Myau tries to keep up with CURE. I run out of spell points before the end, but he dies a few rounds after that.
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Darkfalz blasts Odin. |
After he dies, we find ourselves back in the palace with the governor before us. "I'm sorry; I must have been possessed body and soul by evil," he says. I guess he was Darkfalz? And maybe Darkfalz did the same to Lassic? The game could have been clearer. He continues: "You rescued our world just in the nick of time! If you had come any later, it might have been too late. We all thank you from the bottom of our hearts."
Then he surprises us with: "Alis, your father was once king of Algol. The dark castle has been destroyed, Lassic killed. Do you, Alis, wish to ascend your father's throne and become queen of Algol?" How was this not in the backstory?! Anyway, I can say yes or no, and nothing much happens either way. If I say yes: "Then you are the very queen of the entire system. I will assist you in all ways possible." If I say no: "No? That's fine, if you so desire. You will always be welcome here."
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"I guess I'll just have to rule the galaxy instead. Darn it." |
Either way, we get the same endgame text, which I offer literally: "The sky gradually clears and the peace is returned to the Algol system. A gentle breeze caresses Baya Malay. But does the breeze knows of the hardships that they endured?"
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I'm guessing "no," because it's a breeze. |
Each character gets a captioned portrait.
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At least there was no forced romance between Alis and Odin. |
"Even though the memories of evil fade away, their names will be kept in the hearts of the people of the Algol forever!!!" Then there's the group shot at the top of this entry.
The game has some fun with the credits. The camera zooms through a dungeon and pauses on walls long enough to offer one or two names, although most of them are pseudonyms. The story is by "April Fool," for instance, and the monster design is by "Chaotic Kaz."
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This whole time, I thought "Myau" was a lame play on "meow." But he was really named after one of the developers. |
So there we are: I finished the damned game that people have been pushing me to play since 2012. I suppose I needed to experience it for its impact on the genre, but I did not really like it. Here's a quick GIMLET:
- 4 points for the game world. It suffers the way that a lot of late 1980s games suffer in that it deserves some credit for offering more than just "kill the evil wizard" but yet doesn't offer enough to make for a truly interesting game world or plot. Its universe feels too small and artificial to in any way immerse me, and too many of the plot developments are silly or unexplained.
- 3 points for character creation and development. You get no choices in creation or development, and "development" mostly consists of increased health and magic points, plus (for a while) the types of spells you can cast. During the first third of the game, there is some satisfaction to leveling up, but it feels less rewarding in the second third, and you basically stop entirely in the last third.
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I don't think the game ever specifically mentioned that he returned to his normal size. |
- 5 points for NPC Interaction. They exist, mostly offering single lines of dialogue with an occasional yes/no option. They are important to understanding the world, and many of their dialogues serve as necessary quest flags. None of them feel like they have anything like personalities, but this is the 1980s.
- 4 points for encounters and foes. Enemies are well-designed graphically but boring otherwise, and the sheer number of battles discourages you from experimenting with different tactics, to the extent that you even have them. There are a number of non-combat encounters that essentially amount to light inventory-based puzzle solving.
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Why am I fighting this guy again? |
- 3 points for magic and combat. Again, the sheer number of battles discourages much exploration of the limited tactics that you have. I liked the occasional "boss" battle that forced me to slow down and try different spell combinations, but there aren't that many of those.
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These guys were all over the place for the last few dungeons. |
- 4 points for equipment. Each character gets three or four weapons, shields, and armor pieces over the game plus a number of usable items. The manual offers descriptions of everything and helps the player assess their relative value. It all felt a bit too scripted to me, with planned upgrades coming along at just the right moment in fixed locations.
- 4 points for the economy. It's useful during the first half of the game, as you're always saving for the next upgrade, and utterly useless during the second half. It would have been nice to be able to buy some potions. (The few hit points healed by burgers and cola aren't worth it the inventory space.)
- 3 points for quests. Any game with a main quest gets two. I'm not sure if the game has anything that's really a "side quest," though I suppose some of the inventory items are technically optional. There are no choices or role-playing decisions except for the final one.
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The only choice the character gets, too late to matter. |
- 4 points for graphics, sound, and interface. I'll never like the "cartoon" aesthetic of most console games, but there were some authentically nice graphics here, including the monster animations and the background graphics in towns. The bloopish sound, which cannot be separated from the incessant music, isn't worth any credit in my opinion. The controls work about as well as you can expect from an era console game, which is about 50% more annoying than a keyboard. There are some truly maddening moments with the interface, such as the endless loop you get into when your inventory is full and you're trying to abandon the latest useless item that you found. Having to scroll through message boxes a few words at a time doesn't feel like a necessary restriction.
- 3 points for gameplay. It has a little nonlinearity in a few places, but basically the plot proceeds from one step to another. It's almost what I'm looking for with difficulty, but it's ultimately too long and grindy.
That gives us a final score of 37, which is above the average for its year. It's almost impressive how uniformly it scores across the GIMLET, all 3s and 4s, indicating that it didn't completely bungle anything. Then again, neither did Final Fantasy from the same year, and it got mostly 5s and 6s.
I think I liked the game less than the GIMLET score suggests, and that dislike crosses two dimensions. First, it has that quality of many JRPGs in which I get to the end feeling like the game has played me rather than the opposite. With fixed characters, a linear plot, and such limited character development in the final act, it doesn't feel like there's anything unique about my playing experience. I may as well have watched a video.
Second, it just feels a bit too . . . "tidy" is the best word I can think of. Everything in the game world exists solely to serve the player and move things to the next plot point, no matter how illogical or silly (the cake in the cave is going to live with me for a while). To me, nothing feels remotely real, interesting, or evocative about the places I visited or the people that I met, and yet the genre has come far enough in graphic detail that it's hard to expand the experience with my own imagination. This is an experience that I have all the way into the modern era, with games like Elden Ring.
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The graphics are pretty, no doubt, but that's not why I play RPGs. |
I get why it's supposed to be a landmark game. It was a flagship product for its system, a weapon against the growing popularity of the NES. It took advantage of some superior graphics capabilities of the Master System, which I guess would have made a difference in 1987 but aren't really exciting to me 40 years later, with all the development in between. I mean, it's nice that the zombies drool and the PCs don't look like children, but on the other hand entire paragraphs could appear on the screen at once in Final Fantasy and I could name my characters.
I get that Phantasy Star is the ur-example of the JRPG with the fixed character and plot, which (mysteriously, to me) some players prefer, but . . . why does it even make any difference here? After the introductory screens, so little is done with Alis as a character that it would hardly have changed the game if she was replaced with a character that the player could name. The same is true for the other characters, who lose any individuality once they join the party and never even talk to each other (Myau's metamorphosis being the one exception). The game offers all of the drawbacks to having fixed characters with none of the necessity, let alone benefits.
Nonetheless, numerous JRPGs have apparently cited Phantasy Star as their inspiration. If we define games of its lineage as having . . .
- A fixed protagonist
- NPCs who join over the course of the game
- A linear story
- Turn-based combat
. . . I've mostly seen its influence (amusingly) in eroge games like Rance (1989), Knights of Xentar (1991), Mad Paradox (1992), and Cobra Mission (1992). But I have seen plenty of sites mention its influence on console games that I have not experienced, including Final Fantasy II (1988), Mother (1989), Lunar: The Silver Star (1992), Lufia & the Fortress of Doom (1993), Chrono Trigger (1995), Suikoden (1995), and Wild Arms (1996). I offer that list entirely in ignorance based on secondary sources, so feel free to correct me or suggest others.
Of course, there were sequels. The next six years saw three direct sequels, all set in the Algol system, and a couple of spinoffs. There were several remakes in the 2000s. In 2000, the franchise released its first online game, Phantasy Star Online, and its sequels are still live today.
I'm sure you totally don't care at this point but there was a magic key item that unlocked all those magic locks without MP (it was in Baya Malay I believe).
ReplyDeleteYeah, this pretty much matches my experience with this game - I had a friend in college who sang its praises to the skies and convinced me to give it a go via emulation, but I just found it underwhelming even compared just to other JRPGs. It’s got more going on than Dragon Warrior/Quest, I suppose, but it’s also a *lot* longer and grindier, and lacks the elemental appeal of DW’s admittedly straightforward story. Meanwhile, Final Fantasy has much more satisfying progression and a better grasp of how to develop its narrative.
ReplyDeleteAllegedly PS2 is where the series is supposed to *really* get good, but after getting somewhat burned out finishing the first one I only got a couple hours into the sequel before losing interest.
I can't disagree with your review, especially because you don't like the "fixed characters following a fixed plot" narrative - I will assume that Final Fantasy VI (released as Final Fantasy III in the USA on the SNES) and Chrono Trigger also won't be to your liking, even though they make most JRPG Top 10 of all time lists. They at least allow some flexibility with party composition.
ReplyDeleteI doubt you'd like the sequels any more, but Phantasy Star III did have a branching timeline (twice in the game you get to make a choice how to proceed, so there are technically seven different ways through the game with different endings) - not sure how common that was for a 1990's game. That said, I don't think it's much fun to play, and I don't think the timelines vary enough to really play through the game that many times.
As said in a previous posting, the Sega Ages Re-Release on the Switch adds quality of life features (more XP/mesetas, character and item stats visible, FM music, and automapping), but I think those would remove even more reasons to actually play the game, so YMMV.
Looking forward to your take on Tower of Druaga.
I do think he'd like Phantasy Star 4 slightly more since it's just straight up better in every way, it's just an improved version of this. But not enough for it to be a wise use of his time.
DeleteWhile choice in character creation and development and a nonlinear plot are preferences, they're not absolutes. I could still enjoy a game with a fixed character if the logistics, mechanics, and tactics were good. I just didn't think PS particularly shined in those areas, either.
DeleteYeah, that game was 'Betrayal at Krondor'.
DeleteI honestly should have thought to make that comparison.
DeleteFF6 and CT at least have considerably better stories and characterization. I mean, "considerably" really undersells the massive improvement. Both are personal favorites, obviously.
DeleteI'd also point out that FF6 has quite a bit of flexibility in the latter chunk of the game. This is true in terms of choosing where to go next (technically, almost everything is optional in the last third of the game), but also in terms of progression (there is a late game system that allows you to train characters to learn different spells). You also have several dungeons where you use multiple parties, and you choose who to put in which parties from up to 14 possible characters. It's a huge improvement over PS1's progression and party mechanics.
I mentioned PS3 in a comment below. Unfortunately, while it's my second JRPG (after FF1), it's the black sheep of the series for some decent reasons. I also don't think he'd really like any of the sequels. PS4 is clearly the best, but it's not really strong on the aspect he cares about.
Phantasy Star 4 had the 'macro' system which I'm sure is still unique in RPGs, even looking at computer RPGs. You could set up a series of tactics in memory and choose to execute them for your turn, including deciding your characters' turn order. There were even secret combo attacks you could find by doing certain attacks in the correct order. I can't think of another RPG that allowed you to program your party's turn this way, though I'm sure they do exist. Baldur's Gate II with the spell sequencer and contingency is sort of approaching the concept.
DeleteSome similarities to FFXII's gambit system, Robert K?
DeleteFF6 is so easy I don't think it would grab anyone from a system complexity perspective because all the stuff is kinda just there to be there, you can beat the game playing it in a very simplistic manner. I love FF6 don't get me wrong.
DeleteI do think Chet's reaction to Final Fantasy Tactics would be interesting, though.
DeleteJust looked up how gambits in FF12 work and no, this is actually a lot more involved, this game has entire If>Then conditional priority lists of actions for each character. I think I need to add FF12 to my to-play list, this sounds amazing. Thanks!
Delete"FF6 is so easy I don't think it would grab anyone from a system complexity perspective because all the stuff is kinda just there to be there, you can beat the game playing it in a very simplistic manner. I love FF6 don't get me wrong."
DeleteI wouldn't really say FF6 has complexity, but it certainly has flexibility. You can do what you want in the late game. But yeah, both FF6 and CT are pretty easy. PS4 too, aside from a few difficulty spikes.
Robert K., if you're interested in more modern heavily configurable pseudo-scripted Player Character combat AI behavior, have a look at Dragon Age: Origins, or, very recently, Unicorn Overlord.
DeleteThe Baldur’s Gate games allowed you to write party-member specific AI scripts that were quite sophisticated - as I recall you could edit the ones that the NPCs all ran on.
DeleteI really enjoyed FF6 as a kid and played it through three times, but looking back I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who puts gameplay as a priority.
DeleteYour criticisms are completely fair, and the poorly-motivated fights and baffling plot developments make this game seem slapdash from my adult perspective, as I have no prior knowledge of this game. But it reminds me of other games of the era whose inconsistency and nonsensical plots really sparked my childhood imagination. We're suddenly fighting a final boss unrelated to anything else in the game for no reason? I'd probably have had at least ten backstories developing in my mind before the first round of combat!
ReplyDeleteOh, I had forgotten that Mother was potentially within your purview! It certainly won't make your top ten, but I do hope you play it! (And/or Earthbound, my personal favorite)
I am sure Chet will love playing Mother or Earthbound where you literally play as children, but maybe one of those games will be the one to break his bias against goofy little cartoon men.... but I am not giving it much hope.
DeleteMother honestly has all the worst sins of early console RPGs. I have fond memories of playing it on an emulator back in my early internet days but I don't think it's going to change anyone's mind who already doesn't like cartoony graphics and tolerate endless repetitive grinding and back-loading most of the story. I think it's worth striving to get to that story, but I can understand someone being put off by the effort required.
DeleteThere are only two kinds of people who come away from Earthbound: people whose life is changed by that game and become obsessive fans, or people who give up in disgust before leaving Onett because of the weirdly childish mspaint-style graphics, archaic even for 1995 game systems, and/or utterly alien sense of humor. This is a universal constant, nobody has a meh opinion on Earthbound.
Robert K.: Oh, absolutely. After Earthbound stole my heart, I gave Mother a try and could NOT get into it, even though I'd been looking forward to it since I saw a preview of the (later canceled) NES version in Nintendo Power. Many years later I finally restarted and finished Mother, but there were a lot of rough patches.
DeleteEarthbound has a few interesting things in it, but whether or not Chet gets to it or not depends on his ability to get through Japanese-style Americana and the...unusual combat system. Mother, on the other hand would probably leave Chet scratching his head.
DeleteI must be the rare person who did have a meh opinion on Earthbound; IIRC I got to somewhere shortly after getting the pencil eraser, saved and stopped for the day, and just never felt the need to come back to it.
DeleteI played Mother 3 years later and had no problems playing that one through all the way to the end. I may have just been lucky, but I was impressed with the pacing on just how tensely close several boss fights were given so many games with simple combat systems wind up with pushover bosses that you out-stat.
I was also one of those 'Earthbound is meh' people but mostly because I played the fan translation of Mother 3 first. I didn't realize that it would be the equivalent of visiting an average restaurant after visiting a michelin starred one but that's how it was. I never want to play either again though but for M3 it's because it was so good and broke my heart in so many ways that I can't handle doing it again.
DeleteI should point out, that you disliking this game and trying to finish it as fast as possible resulted in exactly the opposite thing - you wasted a lot of time running around and getting thing you should have found earlier if you payed more attention and made more notes.
ReplyDeleteIf you encounter such a game in the future I recommend either sticking to the pro approach you demonstrate with the most games or just consult the walkthrough and maps to cut the chase. Half-assing is the worst choice, evidently.
Isn't it the case, though, that Chet does this as an amateur - which derives from word "amo", meaning "love", so, as someone who does these things out of love? The difference between amateru and a pro if not level of skill or talent - the difference is that a pro is doing that as a job, is getting paid, and can put up with something he does not like, as long as professional quality is required. Amateur, one working from love, "lover" of what he does, so to speak - does not have extra incentive to be tolerant of parts that he dislikes, of parts that aggravate him, no? This is why "make your hobby into a profession" advice often fails so miserably - as long as you do it as a hobby, you have a freedom to discard parts that you do NOT like. Though I agree completely that a more professional approach would be more pleasant, but... It's not like Chet is being paid for all of that?
DeleteLorigulf.
DeleteIf you insist on taking the term "pro approach" only in the most literal sense, I can rephrase it as "expert approach" or "practiced approach".
I also had a friend push me into playing a JRPG (in my case, it was a remake of the first Neptunia game). It was supposed to be fun, because we're both game developers, and the game is abound console wars and piracy, with all characters being humanization of consoles, and enemies also being game-related.
ReplyDeleteMy reaction was pretty much the same as yours here: while the game does nothing particularly wrong, it doesn't do anything for me. Character designs alone can't save a very mediocre story, and while the combat system was a bit more interesting that "generic JRPG" (which is what we have here), I still found it boring, and with combats being very numerous, this was inexcusable.
In my case, with Neptunia being a much later game, it was also fully voiced, and I discovered I absolutely hate Japanese voice actors. The constant high-pitched squealing drove me to turn VO off. I might be a degenerate savage, but give me adult, deep voices any time.
Of the few JRPGs I ever played, the only one I can name that I kind of like. It was Front Mission 3, and it was more of a tactical game than an RPG (sRPG, they're called, I believe), but it was, somehow, a bit more fun than the rest.
I know a little about the Neptunia series, so I'd be willing to bet a small amount of money that the anthropomorphic video game consoles therein are supposed to be (a) young, (b) cute, and (c) enthusiastic. I've watched enough anime to know that those three characteristics, when combined, translate to high-pitched voices and a certain amount of squealing. That's just the style in Japan for works with a certain tone. You wouldn't see these kinds of performances in something more serious aimed at a more adult audience.
DeleteThe point of all of this is to say that the constant high-pitched squealing isn't the actors fault and they don't deserve your hate. They're just doing the voices that they were hired and instructed to do. Save your ire for the game's producers and voice director.
Having played ten (!) of the Neptunia games, I can attest that they are an acquired taste akin to Mystery Science Theater 3000. The games are very much the product of a AA-publisher, duct-taped together with lots of love and little money, with all the B-movie charm and B-movie failings. No one should watch a MST3K episode for the movie, and no one should play a Neptunia game for its JRPG mechanics -- both exist for the sake of 4th-wall-breaking jokes and meta-references.
DeleteI didn't find the jokes all that funny, either, even though I'm broadly aware of the context. Then again, I'm and will always be a PC gamer, so even if I'm aware of console wars and some of their tropes, I'm not deeply immersed in them. Also, I really wanted to fight for Piracy side (because as a developer and a gamer, I support piracy), but the game wouldn't let me choose! :)
DeleteDifferent tastes for different people, but high pitch is used for cute young characters a lot, while the characters themselves are older than they look, they still look like young girls, even in their CPU forms, so the voices didn't go for adult ones, also, as stated, it also depends on the tone of the work.
DeleteUnless there is a mix match of characters where you get some cute and more serious ones, since you mentioned Front Mission, there is the Super Robot Taisen/Super Robot Wars series which kinda has that.
But mostly because it's a weird franchise, being a bunch of turn based strategy games where you go through missions with various characters from various anime and manga with giant robots mixed together in a huge crossover setting, so you may get some shows with cuter characters and their voices and then ones from more serious shows.
Also, i guess SRW will annoy some people because anime and manga mecha rarely go for realism at all, like, slow moving machines aren't what they are about mostly, and really don't go for military looking designs, humanoid or animal shaped robots with faces are much more of a standard, alongside screwing the rules of physics.
Particularmente, achei o jogo muito ruim. Nunca consegui terminar.
ReplyDeleteI got about half-way through this one and enjoyed it to some extent, but didn't bother finishing it.
ReplyDeleteJRPGs earlier than Chrono Trigger have aged badly for me: it's Wizardry with crapper combat, and aside from Active Time Battle, until 2000 or so they barely changed mechanically in all that time.
Chrono Trigger is a great game though, that is worth playing I think. Not only is the combat more involving, but there's a lot of player agency in developing the story in different ways. It's very replayable, and beautifully made.
JRPGs are fantastic when they work, but I find the vast majority of them rather mediocre now.
I think this is a clear case of rosetinted nostalgiaglasses. The more I read about about Chets playtrough of this game, the more I remembered that it was an excellent product of its time but it have not aged well and isn´t that fun to play for a modern player.
ReplyDeleteIt's my favorite between FF1, DQ1/DW1 and itself but I think all three games are only worth playing for nostalgia or research. They're fun enough to be playable but there are so many better games you could play instead.
DeleteIt's okay to acknowledge that a game you loved earlier in life isn't actually that great, looking back. It doesn't invalidate your happy memories of playing it.
DeleteYou might have liked Phantasy Star less than Final Fantasy, but you surely liked more to write about it (5 entries vs 2 entries).
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing about Japanese devs using funny pseudonyms is darker than it may seem at first glance. It was a policy enforced by the game companies to make it harder for rival companies to poach their talent.
ReplyDeleteMakes it harder now to identify who actually did what on games we loved, too. I hate it. The people who composed music for the Mega Man series for example deserved to be getting awards and recognition for what they pulled off on a sound chip with three channels + one noise.
DeleteI didn't want to spoil this because, you know, it gives away the final boss, but apparently the "Saccubus" that attacks Alys in her dream was a "Nightmare" in the Japanese version. If you notice, it's basically Darkfalz' sprite cropped to just the face.
ReplyDeleteOf course, not that Darkfalz being physically present earlier in the story actually explains anything about it.
I'd like to believe that "Darkfalz" was how they crammed "Dark Force" into 8 characters because "DrkForce" would have looked like "DorkForce", but I have a sneaking suspicion that we're just lucky that we didn't get "DarkFuzz".
"Darkfalz" sounds like the kind of name some edgy teen would choose for his MMO character, except that it doesn't have any numbers in it.
DeleteReminds me of Dark Fact in Ys (though in Japanese it's Fakuto, so I guess they didn't miss the mark that much).
Delete80s game translations are a hoot!
Fakuto would just be "fact" with Japanese pronounciation, so Dark Fact would be dead on the mark
DeleteI believe "Darkfalz" is just wrong romanization of the kana. It should be "Dark Force".
DeleteOh, there's even a conspiracy theory that it should be "Dark Phallos".
DeleteSeriously, the site that I linked earlier on covers it extremely well. Here's the page on Dark Force:
https://lizbushouse.com/phantasy-star-1-script-comparison-sega-ages-gba-part-14/
@CRPGAddict, the numbers are only there because all the cool nicknames without them are already taken.
DeleteAnother funny thing is that while they have the "appears in dreams" aspect correct in regards to Saccubus... succubi are female.
DeleteNote that Dark Force gets explained better in the later games. Though I doubt you'll play them. PS2's grinding and long dungeons (though they're top down view like the rest of the game) are much worse than PS1's.
DeleteP-tux7. Succubus being female and incubus being male are modern inventions of pop culture. They were able to change their appearance based on who they were seducing and it was whether they used domination or submission that was the delineator.
DeleteRegardless apparently a Saccubus is more concerned with violence than seduction anyway
A Saccubus is an incubus who specializes in CBT.
DeleteI remember really liking Phantasy Star 4 as a child and playing it over and over again.
ReplyDeleteI never was able to go back and play the earlier ones to completion, they were all extremely rough despite being important historically.
By 4, they'd made a much more thorough plot with more detailed characters and even comic book panels for cutscenes and a rotating cast of party members. So they improved a lot as they went.
But this is a good look into how early JRPGs really just did not have a lot of depth to them, and going back to them outside the 'I was 4-10 years old at the time and playing what was there' doesn't hold up for a lot. Same with many CRPGs, the gems are rare.
The phantasy star series unfortunately aged poorly, in that the things that made them notable when they were first released are no longer anything to get excited over.
DeletePS1, for example, had the unique for the time mixing of standard fantasy with a science fiction planet-hopping setting, as well as the fake smoothscrolling first-person dungeons. In 1988 this was incredible, I'm sure - when I played it for the first time in the late 90's, I remember thinking this put NES games to shame graphically; why hadn't I heard more about this before?
PS2 was absolutely enormous in game size (the size of the ROM was a selling point) and was one of the earlier RPGs to have something like a detailed melodramatic story with an extremely shocking mid-game twist. Unfortunately, the sheer repetitive grind of endless random combats in order to keep exploring, the enormously confusing maze levels, as well as back-loading the majority of that story into the last third of the game with a suspect script anyway, make it hard to go back to now. The memories of time spent playing it are better than trying to replay it.
PS3 was incredibly ambitious for when it was released, with unique game systems and the replayability of choosing your path down the different generations. Unfortunately, it's pretty clear looking at it with a critical eye that the game was way too ambitious for the time they had to develop it and most of the released game is blatantly unfinished. The story makes no sense due to obviously missing linking text and dialogue, dungeons are samey and repetitive, entire regions and dungeons of the game are barely used or never visited at all, towns and the only really satisfying conclusion is to have knowledge of all four endings despite the first 2/3rds of the game being basically the same on each playthrough.
PS4 not only aged well but is fighting to be the very best console RPG of the 16-bit era against Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger and Earthbound. Everything about it is brilliant except that it feels way too short by the time you get to the end, and that the difficulty is rarely very high outside a couple walls here and there like the Air Castle. Music, art direction, story, tone and mood, sense of a world to be explored, the comic book art cutscenes, a general sense that the people who made that game had an artistic vision and executed it well. I don't think Chet would enjoy it, knowing his preferences after a decade of reading this blog, but I sure think it's swell.
Yeah I don't know if I'd be able to rate PS4, Chrono Trigger, FF6 against each other exactly because they're both good in very different ways.
DeleteI actually personally think PS4 is around the correct length these days because so many games are way too long. A tight 20-25 hour experience (I haven't played it in forever so this is a random number) is much easier to be satisfied by than a longer one. The older I've gotten the more I've appreciated shorter games. Even down to 6-8 hours as long as they did what they came in to do.
I think I'd say that despite the thinness of the plot, PS1 seems (and I'm going just by this review; I haven't played it myself) is ahead of what was typical for the period. The complexity of the plot seemed more in line with what we'd see in the 16-bit era than for something this early.
DeleteEh, having played it I’m not sure that’s the case? It’s more complex than Dragon Quest 1, which came out in 1986 in Japan, but IMO not noticeably more sophisticated than FF1, which also came out in 1987 in Japan. But I can see how the Western perception would be different, since PS came out in the U.S. in 1988, DQ1 in 89, and FF1 in 90.
DeleteI think you have a decent point, Ross. It's not the best of its year, as Tetrapod points out, but it's probably a bit better than average. There was only a handful of computer RPGs doing anything more complex--U4/U5, Might and Magic, Phantasie, maybe a few more. I was perhaps a little harsh for 1987.
DeleteThat's one of the perils of a project like this one. The average person can just toss it into the "retro" pile and make allowances based on that, but you not only run the risk of comparing it to modern games but also know *exactly* what the top developers were doing in the same year. Usually (but not always) much more experienced developers working off a deep wellspring of prior art (sometimes their own, like Garriot; sometimes the work of others).
DeletePhantasy Star, the not-exception proving the rule again.
ReplyDeleteThank you for playing, Chet, even if you weren't a big fan of it in the end. I really have been looking forward to your take on Phantasy Star for many years now.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the PS games prior to PS4 aged pretty poorly, I'll admit it, since the things that made them amazing back when aren't really unique any more, but there's always a place in my heart for this one. I actually played it last - had a Genesis as a kid, didn't get to play PS1 until high school when I picked up it and a sega power base (adapter to play SMS games on a genesis) at a secondhand store. I remember thinking 'holy crap this thing blows anything the NES had completely out of the water'. Memorable music, bright colorful crisp graphics, memorable monster designs, and that 3D first-person dungeon crawling with the pseudo-smoothscrolling. For someone who never played cRPGs like Dungeon Keeper or Eye of the Beholder and only saw them in magazines, this was really something. Felt 'mature', like this is what those computer players were talking about.
I'm a little surprised to read in an offhand comment that apparently you hadn't been mapping this one? As a primarily console game player Phantasy Star is *the* game I first think of when I think 'mapping a dungeon on grid paper', because it's the main console game I can think of that really encouraged it. Those dungeons are huge and super easy to get lost in if you aren't tracking where you are. Surprised you made it to the end that way.
For most of the game the dungeons aren't that bad, actually, that's really only an endgame thing. When he said "this FEELS like a game I shouldn't have to map" I related because that's how I felt as a kid (and I had a real rough time in Baya Malay as a result).
DeleteWhich is a funny thing to say as prior to this entry many commenters mentioned having to map during their play throughs and that the act of mapping may actually allow the addict to enjoy it more as he goes. O well.
DeleteI played through a bunch of console rpgs/jrpgs back in the day. Phantasy Star wasn't bad, especially if you didn't mind looking things up, but I wouldn't rate it as high as the Super Nintendo versions of the same era. 2 and 3 have some interesting story beats, but the gameplay didn't significantly improve. Phantasy Star 4 was a much better version that I would place right behind the all time Super Nintendo classics of the era (Final Fantasy 2+3 (4 and 6 by modern naming conventions) and Chrono Trigger. PSO was a great action version , console MMORPG, especially for its time. Not sure where the console games that you might consider fall on your list, but I can second the recommendations for Final Fantasy 2, Lunar:Silver Star Story, and Suikoden. I might also suggest a Breath of Fire game (really enjoyed the first 3) and a Shining Force, for an example of a console strategy rpg. Not sure of something like Ogre Battle or Master of Monsters would peak your interest, but I can't see you making it without being bullied into playing a Fire Emblem at some point, and they feel like an honest beginning of the progression to get there
ReplyDeleteSuikidoden 1, technically got a pc release, albeit not in English
DeleteI'm not sure I would feel comfortable recommending Breath of Fire 2 to anybody without a major caveat that the terrible script is part of the entertainment, because wow, I think that game may have the single worst localization script of any published cRPG.
DeleteI would recommend playing BoF2 with the retranslation patch.
DeleteYou don't even need to argue technicality, Suikoden 1 and 2 both have PC releases as of a month ago (in a lightly visually remastered form, but the core gameplay is unchanged).
DeleteA few thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. I think people thought Chet would like this because it has somewhat more complicated, first person dungeons combined with a different kind of setting and a general high regard among JRPG fans. Unfortunately, I think he hit a sort of donut hole here. For Chet, this game was too hard/painful to be completely brainless/easy-going, but not good/deep enough to represent a meaty, long-term RPG experience. The fact that he didn't want to map is an interesting example to point to. He probably would've enjoyed himself more in the end and perhaps even hastened his victory if he had mapped the last few dungeons, but it appears that he simply didn't want to. (This is not a criticism of Chet, mind! Just focusing on how he couldn't really vibe with the game, even in ways he usually would.)
2. For my part, Phantasy Star pushed the edges* of console JRPG story-telling, setting/context, characterization, and, most especially, dungeon design, but its lack of flexibility in terms of both narrative and progression elements is a weakness, especially for someone used to playing more open-ended CRPGs like Chet. I also had forgotten how simplistic most battles were. It's easy to take something like FF1 for granted in that regard. Even though PS4 is a massive improvement for the series, I don't really think Chet would like any of them. None of them really give any narrative or progression flexibility, except for PS3's** generation system.
3. For console JRPGs Chet will actually like, we need games with interesting progression and battle elements and some more nonlinearity at least. Some early possibilities: FF3, DQ3, FF5 (he'd hate the plot though). Not sure about the series that shall not be named, as I've only played much later entries.
*keeping in mind that the edges were established by like.. Dragon Quest 1
**Full disclosure: PS3 is generally considered the black sheep of the series
Final Fantasy 3? Really? I played that one, and I found that both the combat system and the dungeon layouts were a lot less interesting there than in Final Fantasy 1 or in contemporary computer games.
DeleteFF3 does have a class change system, but it basically boils down to "now for THIS dungeon, you're going to need THESE classes" - sometimes NPCs tell you what "these classes" are. So the class changing doesn't really add anything to the gameplay.
Doesn't every party in FF3 wind up as 2 Ninjas and 2 Sages?
DeleteThe Ninja and Sage classes are the reward for a long optional dungeon that's only accessable right before the end. For all that trouble you would be very disappointed if those classes weren't better than the others.
DeleteAgree that DQ3 could be a contender though I'm not sure which version (and he'd have to get over some chibi graphics). Maybe DQ7 too if it ever gets that far but the original game is a slog at points.
DeleteStrategy JRPGS would be really interesting to see, and most of the prime suspects have been mentioned already. I don't see a way to exclude them other than by choice but I also have a feeling they'll appeal to our author's sensibilities, at least in part.
Well, you gave it a fair try, and you finished it, and that's good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteI love Phantasy Star, but I appreciate that it's for mostly nostalgic reasons. It was the first rpg (j or otherwise) that I played, and I have a great deal of fondness for the Master System in general. I'm wise enough now that I'm old to see the game's many faults.
That floating castle on a piece of land gives me Skyrealms of Jorune vibes.
ReplyDeleteOr Roger Dean, I guess.
Looking at the art direction on Space Harrier I'd say there were more than a few fans of Dean at Sega. Also at Treasure (Light Crusader) and Novotrade (Ecco Tides of Time).
DeleteI was reminded of the titular Castle in the Sky from the Studio Ghibli anime by Hayao Myazaki (天空の城ラピュタ, Tenkū no Shiro Rapyuta), also known under the (for Spanish-speaking regions unfortunate) name Laputa, which came out in 1986, i.e. a year before PS was released. Might have been an influence.
DeleteAlso, there is the Flying Citadel we saw in 1990's Champions of Krynn. Not sure when one first showed up in the underlying Dragonlance books / modules.
Busca: The Spanish coincidence is unfortunate, since changing the title for international audiences misses the reference to the airborne land in Gulliver's Travels. Though with Jonathan Swift's sense of humor, maybe it wasn't such a pure coincidence?
DeleteOh, Laputa in Gulliver’s Travels was absolutely named for that reason…
Delete@Walter M: Yes, I understand at least some interpretations think Swift chose that name on purpose, being aware of the Spanish meaning, though it seems there are different arguments as to the reasons behind it.
DeleteIn any case, it lead to the name for the floating island / castle being slightly changed in many Spanish-speaking countries, both in Gulliver's Travels and in the anime. So the reference was kept, just not the original name.
What gave me Skyrealms of Jorune vibes was the image of Baya Malay, with the top down view on the floating land above the ground landscape. Reminded me of the floating pieces of land in Alien Logic (with cruder graphics), which we'll probably come across in 1994.
DeleteBut I think I may have misinterpreted something. Baya Malay isn't actually the floaty bit, it's just a mountain that's depicted a bit differently than the rest?
Given the context of earlier NPC mentions, I think "Baya Malay" is just the section of land on the other side of that compound wall. It includes the lava field, a couple of caves, and the tower that leads up to the sky castle.
DeleteHeh, reminds me of Disney's recent Moana movies, which were renamed in Italy as that is also the name of a well-known local porn star from the 90s.
DeletePersonally, I played the Switch port and had a great time despite having no prior exposure to it. That being said considering I also had a great time with things like modern Pokemon games and the original Dragon Quest that might just be more evidence of me having horrible taste in games, or extremely low standards
ReplyDeleteDespite what I say above about its faults, there's a lot to like about Phantasy Star and a lot of things it does well, even with a critical modern eye.
DeleteA far as I understand, the Switch port has balance tweaks over the original that makes the game flow a lot faster. All HLTB completion submissions on the lower end mention they played that version.
DeleteThe Sega Ages version on Switch has an option to reduce encounters and increase rewards. There's no need to grind at all in that mode. You can also turn on an automap which points out dungeons pits and secret doors. I don't remember if Chet ever encountered any of those, but there's nothing important in any of them.
DeleteI, obviously, haven't played this, but for 1987 it seems a standard amount of open, with a starting quest, then going after Disassembulet of Yendor, then doing a boss fight. The plot is very weak.
ReplyDeleteThat line about feeling like the game played you rather than the opposite really resonates. I've played plenty of JRPGs, but even at their most dynamic it often feels like they're something you clock into instead of something you play on your own terms.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've heard, if Myau dies during the gold dragon fight you end up with a party wipe. Since you no longer have a flyer keeping you in the air.
ReplyDeleteAgree with all points. A fair review.
ReplyDeleteWhilst I like Phantasy Star, I like it most for the setting. Whilst I prefer fantasy, this was refreshing. PS1 though was far goofier than I remember and very forced..everything there to service the player's journey, as you say.
PS1 and 2 are both heavily on the grinder side. I believe that gets better later but.
I think part of what has to be appreciated about phantasy star 1 is that like dragon quest 1 or final fantasy 1, this is the ground floor of a series that's going to be incredibly influential. Imagine judging the ultima franchise by ultima 1. I get the frustration that for late 80s, these console rpgs seem behind pc equivalents of the era but legitimately "ultima 1" is a good analog for how much the jrpgs build up from here. Dragon Quest 4 is as big a step up from DQ1 as ultima 4 is vs. ultima 1.
ReplyDeleteThe games here are always reviewed on their own merits. When/if Chet will get to later PSs or DQs, I'm sure any improvement will be reflected in the final rating/assessment.
DeleteI don't think Phantasy Star, either the series or the game, was particularly influential. The first game was stuck on an unpopular system. The next two games were on a more successful system, but I can't think of any other console RPGs with the punishing mazes of II or multiple generations of characters of III. I mean maybe there are some other games with these features, but they certainly didn't become common. IV had battle macros, but I haven't seen them in any other game.
DeleteThere's influence besides just mechanics. Phantasy Star was one of the first jRPGs that wasn't set in Generic Medieval Fantasy (as in Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy I) or contemporary Japan (Megami Tensei).
DeleteThe complexity of the story and scale of the game was also significantly past FF1 or the three DQ games then on the market. In retrospect the difference isn't so visible, but it is there. Later FF games shifted genre into settings that ranged from pseudo-steampunk magitech to outright magic sci-fi, and stories got increasingly more complex as time went on.
There's genuine room to believe that PS1 had a pretty real impact in those evolutions, if only because it reviewed and sold well and thus showed that the ideas already in consideration had potential.
Probably the clearest influence of Phantasy Star might be on Final Fantasy itself, given that Final Fantasy II clearly took notes from it in switching from player-created to fixed characters (if still named by the player) and a linear plot.
DeleteIt was absolutely FF that *refined* it, in the long run, and I'd credit FF more with the influence long term.
> The game won't even tell me how many hit points he has.
ReplyDeleteDarkfalz has 510 hit points, per the Switch version's bestiary. The reason he can attack you twice is...
...he's actually *two* monsters, each one with 255 hit points. (This is why Odin's guns and Noah's Thunder spell hit him twice at the start of the fight, and once later on. It's because the party killed one of the Darkfalzes.)
Huh. I didn't really even notice that happening (the two hits, and then one hit). Thanks for that bit of trivia.
DeleteFun but only slightly related fact: The Garrosh Hellscream boss fight in World of Warcraft's Mists of Pandaria expansion was split into multiple phases because his hit points would've been over 2.1 Billion (the limit of a signed 32-Bit integer) otherwise. So even in 2013 that was still an issue.
Delete(World of Warcraft did do a stat squish in a later expansion to bring all the numbers way down across the entire game)
Having the boss be a bunch of linked monsters instead of a single entity is a pretty common thing in JRPGs and usually done because it lets you tweak the Action Economy without altering the mechanics.
DeleteWithout tweaking the rules, a full party will generally have 5/4/3 actions per round (depending on the game's party size) to the boss's one.
This makes balancing the fight tricky in several ways. If you have enough damage output to keep up with the party's healing, you all too easily overshoot the mark and obliterate them. If you're designing the boss as a tank, you can wind up giving it way too much healing and make it impossible for the party to keep up. Alternatively, you can wind up with a boss that only gets to do one or two things while the party just dogpiles it to death.
Special "act twice" abilities and such can work, but coding that in for just a couple of fights can be a lot of work for little gain.
Having the boss be in multiple chunks solves the issue quite nicely. When you're fighting 4v2 or 4v3 instead of 4v1, the mechanics simply work better.
Final Fantasy V introduced a variation of this that would be common for a while: end bosses with "dummy" targets that would soak up multi-target attacks.
DeleteIt's not like an "act twice" ability would be hard to code, though. It's a very, very simple "if" clause in any programming language.
DeleteIn terms of implementation, I think a boss that attacks multiple times would be a considerable deviation if your core battle mechanic was a pure "each character takes a turn one after the other" design, but I would expect that the fact that so much of CRPG history links back to Dungeons and Dragons would have positioned developers to have a basic familiarity with an initiative-like system that doesn't decompose simply into "your turn" and "my turn" but rather into "each character gets an action every N turns, where N is a property of the individual character".
DeleteI recall that in FF4, I had a hard time keeping track of when various characters were going to get their next action since the calculation had gotten pretty complex and involved both the character's stats and what action they were performing. As time went on, that lineage at least got better about giving the player information about that, usually by displaying a kind of timer showing how long until each character would act again (one of my favorites provided the nice convenience of showing a timeline that indicated in what order the next several actions would occur)
Worse yet, Final Fantasy 4 had counter-attacks. Performing certain kinds of attacks on the enemy, or attacking it at the wrong time, could allow the enemy to attack on your turn, in addition to the turns it would normally get.
DeleteOf course, it was impossible to tell if the enemy was earning counter-attacks or if the enemy just got to take lots of turns.
It's extremely traditional in Japanese media like manga and video games that the villains are misguided rather than truly evil, no matter how vile their deeds might seem. I think there are both historical and philosophical reasons at play. Sometimes that villainy is simply tragic, but often the hero and villain put aside their differences and become friends, which works fine if you are a manga and have another story arc to move to.
ReplyDeleteI suspect sometimes with a video game like Phantasy Star they felt like they need a more conclusive finish though, because often after dispatching with the tragically misguided villain, the heroes have to confront the REAL villain, which is nothing less than Evil itself. And of course, Evil can never really be defeated, only held at bay by the constant effort of heroes.
Sorry, this is a spoiler for approximately 80% of Japanese RPGs! But I don't see how it is any sillier than the tropes of so many western fantasy stories. I read the Betrayal at Krondor entries with interest, for example, but nothing about them made me want to play the game or read Raymond Feist's books.
I think it’s less that there’s something wrong with the trope than that it’s given no proper buildup and underexplained, so it doesn’t land effectively (ironically, something that’s also true of the late-game twist in Betrayal at Krondor).
DeleteI had Nintendo and Playstation instead of Sega systems, so I never played Phantasy Star. But the trope was instantly recognizable to me. Reviewing a YouTube video of the game, yeah, it looks like the implication is that Lassic was possessed by Evil, and you find Darkfalz about to possess his next target right after you thought you have won the game. It does not state outright what is happening.
DeleteYes, the last minute reveal of a previously-unmentioned greater and less sympathetic villain is a fairly common Japanese media trope. I think it's their way of squaring the circle of making the villain sympathetic and still allowing for a full-on showdown that doesn't involve the heroes murdering someone we care about (Contrast with, say, Disney, which has struggled with their villains since they started making them more complex; my favorite Disney villain in the past decade has been "The audience's unresolved trauma from their relationship with their mom").
DeleteNot sure if it's applicable, but I've noticed that Japanese media is also much more willing to let misguided villains simply be dispatched in the end without achieving redemption
Ultimately, Dark Force gets rewritten into the main background threat terrorising the Algol system can be defeated, but that only seals him for another thousand years. I've seen that trope play out before, but not often that a series has you play multiple games against this threat
DeleteHowever in this Game, Force is what tvtropes dubs the GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere. An existential threat that shows up at the end without sufficient setup
Yes, it's a very common trope. Also in FF1, you end up fighting "Chaos" as final boss.
DeleteI remember being appreciative of FF6 when playing it for the first time for NOT using that trope.
It kinda happens in FF6, it just happens about the middle of the game rather than all the way at the end, with the Emperor being deposed by Basically The Joker.
DeleteIt has been argued that this type of trope was influenced by the trauma of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a metaphor for nuclear weapons, but the general parallels aren't a huge stretch.
DeleteThe Giant Space Flea From Nowhere trope emphatically does *not* describe Kefka in FF6. He's an established character from the very beginning, and while he does take over power from the Emperor, the Emperor was never really set up as being a *final boss* type character—just a very dangerous evil ruler.
DeleteNo; the classic example of the Giant Space Flea From Nowhere in the mainline Final Fantasy series is Necron, in FF9. Never mentioned at any point previously in the story, not even "another form" of a previous boss, you beat what appears to be the final boss and then you have to fight it with no real warning.
Fair point. I believe the trope-namer for Giant Space Flea is Yu Yevon in FFX, but even that isn't as good a fit as Necron (or Dark Falz) since he gets an explanation and backstory after the Yunalesca fight and there's one more major plot arc before the showdown.
DeleteChaos in FF1 is also not a "space flea from nowhere", because the game sets up that the "true enemy" awaits you in the past. The specific explanation of how Chaos was created is given to you after you defeat him, but that he exists isn't really a surprise.
DeleteFinal Fantasy IX is sort of Final Fantasy reflecting back on itself and restating its purpose, so I think it's fitting that it Necron just states the point of the last-act boss reveals outright: he's there so the heroes can confront their existential dread and kick its ass.
Delete"This is an experience that I have all the way into the modern era, with games like Elden Ring."
ReplyDeleteElden Ring has an incredibly rich history and mythology, but it's all presented "offline" through item descriptions and subteties in the environment. It is very "tidy" in execution though, but that's mainly because it's not an RPG! Yes it has a detailed character build system that most modern games of any genre now borrow, but it's an action/exploration game at core. It's a modern version of The Legend Of Zelda, not Ultima.
I feel like a lot of people would take issue with your final claim, but I don't like the game enough to fight it. As for the incredibly rich history and mythology, I actually enjoy games that make you work a bit to figure things out. Morrowind remains my favorite example, where you need to find some obscure books and notes to interpret the history properly. What bothers me about ER most is the lack of any normal people. What's the point of rulers with no subjects? And where are all those traders plying their wares when I'm not the one buying them?
DeleteBut if I ever play the game for my blog, I'll endeavor to figure out the lore.
I love all Souls games and their siblings, and I played them multiple times. Still, I have never been big on the cryptic lore and mostly enjoy them for the gameplay and atmosphere.
DeleteMorrowind can still be enjoyed at a basic level, you can grok fairly well what's going on without reading any book.
In Souls games, you really need to read every item description, interpret the cryptic dialogues and fill the gaps on your own to make some sense of what is going on and in the end it's not really such mindblowing lore that makes it worth the effort, in my opinion.
That is true, Morrowind is like an onion. If you just read the quest dialogue of the main quest you have a good enough idea of the plot and it is fun. The talk with Vivec alone explains the big theme. The cryptic history is there in texts like the Lessons of Vivec, but they are optional for people who like to dig deep.
DeleteThat is different to the entire game plot being a single cryptic layer.
Josh
ReplyDeleteI only played this one after 4, but I get where you're coming from on some level. That said, I personally think 4 is top tier though 2 and 3 are still on my to play list. (Sorry, forgot the first requested rule and couldn't edit my post)
Hello Chet, I like your column as always, but two points to discuss here. First is that personally I would rate phantasy star higher, but of course it´s just my opinion. For the sega at the time it was a ground breaking game and extraordinary considering the memory and graphic limitations of the system. Second, I can´t see in your blog where you mention about the use of help to finish games, or well, nothing big and specific. For example with phantasy star, I beat the game too but it was very difficult. Doing it in one month like you would have been impossible and that was back when I was a school boy with good reflexes and plenty of time spare, including to talk to other friends to get tips. I am sure you use game guides and possibly also hacks/cheats for something like this game to finish it so quick. you are an adult worker with less time and skill of hand than I had when I completed it. It´s up to you if you don´t want to discuss ways you get games done faster, but if it were my reviews blog, I would state it clearly to be bluntly honest with people. I think it´s an important conversation in itself that rpg´s are incredibly challenging and that many players over the years didn´t complete these titles at all due to the grinding hours needed, which naturally meant a huge chunk of their days away from more important human activities and family, too. The amount of time and delight I spent on this game, I am certain beyond any doubt that you needed help to finish this game. I won´t stand corrected either, although I nonethless accept that others won´t want to agree with me. Good day and thanks for the blog, once again.
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of bs. I won't stand corrected, too, and thanks for nothing.
Delete@Experienced: I assume our host will answer himself. In the meantime, you could check out the blog's FAQ (reachable through the drop-down menu at the top in the mobile version or linked in the upper right in desktop view), specifically "How do you have time to play all of these games?" and the last point under "How many people contribute to this site?", as well as what he wrote about his approach in the Special Topics Posting "Cheats and liars".
Deletethe grinding hours needed
DeleteThere's the rub, or part of it: hours become minutes when you use an emulator's turbo/warp/fast-forward function. He already acknowledged that he used turbo to speed up combat by a factor of 10 in the Polar Exploration entry.
I don't use that functionality in my own gameplay myself, at least not anymore (I used to about 20 years ago, when emulating console games). But given the documentary aspect of Chet's mission, his use of turbo doesn't give me any sleepless nights, and shouldn't give them to anyone else either, including Chet.
Yes, I sped up the combats. I also looked up a hint for where to find the crystal. When a game allows saving anywhere, I don't have any compunction using the emulator's save states, which are marginally faster. That's the only cheating I did for PS. I don't know what being young and having better reflexes has to do with it, since this is a turn-based RPG and not an action game.
DeleteJust a couple of entries ago, I had commenters asking why I was taking so long, and now someone's questioning if I did it too fast.
"I generally cannot use cheats, FAQs, walkthroughs, maps, or other hints..." is literally in the sidebar of every page on this site, so if you "can´t see in your blog where you mention about the use of help to finish games" you couldn't have been looking very hard.
Delete@stepped pyramids: To be fair, the sidebar is not visible in mobile view (which I assume is how most people read the blog these days) and most of its contents (other than the links in its upper right) are not accessible through the drop-down menu there either.
DeleteThis means the 'Recent, Current, & Upcoming list' (which has become more relevant now if Chet keeps the idea to discuss upcoming games in separate entries), links to 'Missing & Mysterious' and game rankings, Figures, Sources and Associates, Blog Archive, [Followers,] the mentioned Rules, Game Superlatives, 'Must Play' List and Copyright/AI.
Unless you already know or happen to discover by chance that desktop view offers contents beyond what you can see or reach through the drop-down menu in mobile view, I'm not sure there is a reason why someone would suspect this or would otherwise switch and thus see all that.
I'm no expert in blogspot or in website design in general, so not sure if there is an easy / elegant way to solve this. Maybe include a link in the mobile drop-down menu to "Desktop view with additional content in sidebar" (identical to the link to "View web version" in the footer) or so (if that's feasible)?
Someday I want one of these retro gaming analyses to include the claim "For historical authenticity, while playing I called my mother so she could tell me how disappointed she was in my life choices and also to please bring in the trash can"
DeleteBetter just to ignore all the comments saying to play JRPGs and stick to RPGs released on computers. You can see here how even when you do play them, they're upset that you're not playing the exact ones they fanboy over; and if you do actually play those ones like with Zelda 1, they're upset anyway if you have a different opinion than them on it. After Final Fantasy 1, only Dragon Quest 3, Final Fantasy 3 and 5 and a few SRPGs will have creatable characters and class systems for another 20 years, it's something they eschewed for the sake of their mostly-childish linear anime stories.
ReplyDeleteYeah, suggesting to generally ignore all comments recommending any JRPGs, indiscriminately bunching all those commenters into a complaining fanboy category and summarily judging 20 years of JRPG stories as mostly-childish anime sounds like a well-reasoned, informed and thoughtful advice.
DeleteNot sure what comment sections you have been reading, but besides some fanboyism I've seen a lot of reasonable, differentiating and informative input on JRPG / console game entries recommending examples of them.
(Plus, as Abacos also just reminded us, Chet might do the opposite of what he is "told to do" anyway ;-)).
Gastrick, I feel that this is a weird entry to post that comment on. I think the comments here have been generally agreeable. Anyway, what kind of blogger would I be if I let the positivity or negativity of comments steer the direction of the blog?
Delete