Sunday, February 22, 2026

Star Trail: Anvil Chorus

 
I  guess we're not worthy.
       
After the last entry, commenters alerted me that I was, in fact, in the right Pit and that in order to progress, I had to speak to Inradon Xermosch at the Temple of Ingerimm about DWARVEN PIT three times. He goes on a bit about how the Pit is a site holy to Ingra—who I guess is different from Ingerimm—and that the temple holds the key to keep the residents from temptation, as if any dwarf from the community attempted to loot "Ingra's legendary hoards of gold," he would be "swallowed whole by the mountain." On the third click, he gives us the key.
    
There were some opinions that the game manual alerts you to the need to ask the same person the same subject multiple times. This is what the manual says: "Often, you may progress through several rounds of conversation before the two of you reach mutual accord." This is not quite the same thing as "click the same topic multiple times." What makes it particularly egregious is that NPCs have a way of killing conversation before you've clicked through each topic once, let alone multiple times. If you know you only get five clicks before you're booted out of conversation, are you going to waste two of them on the same topic?
      
This seemed paradoxically too hard and too easy.
       
Incidentally, I didn't even have this meager advice from the manual because the GOG version of the manual jumps from Page 22 to 33. I don't know why I didn't just go right to the Museum of Computer Adventure Gaming History in the first place
   
In any event, instead of continuing to Lowangen, I reload, get the key, and re-enter what every bit of dialogue calls the Dwarven Pit but the game calls the Finsterkopp Pit. (It would be nice if everything didn't have multiple names.) The game notes that the key gets stuck in the lock, so the door locks behind us. If we want to get out, we'll have to find another key.
    
The opening room has a skeleton against the far wall, a door to the west, and a corridor to the east. The skeleton has a leather bag with a bit of script and an empty bottle. We take both. Lilii  Borea, with her skill in "Read/Write" and languages, interprets the script, which offers a poem about Ingerimm, dwarven god of smiths. 
     
I assume it was better in German.
       
I try the door, but no amount of bashing or casting the FORAMEN spell will let us through. I can't use the third option, "pick lock," as I have not found any lockpicks. Were their lockpicks for sale in one of the towns, and I just overlooked them?
      
This would be so much easier if you guys didn't keep losing your cool.
       
The corridor leads to a room with a mural of Ingerimm in one alcove and a brazier in another. The game lets us move the brazier out of place for no reason. Toliman is burned searching through the coals and finding an "asthenil ring." The burn drops his dexterity to 1 for a few hours, which may have something to do with my subsequent trouble picking door locks, even after I found some picks.
    
The dwarven god of the forge looks a lot like Kurt Russell.
      
And that's all I can figure out to do. There are no other passages. I find no secret doors. The door in the entry room remains stubbornly locked. Xamidimura breaks a toe trying to kick it down. I'm just about to reload from outside the dungeon when FORAMEN suddenly works, and I have a new area to explore.
   
Almost immediately, I run into another locked door that's as stubborn as the one I just left. I ignore it and move further into the corridors, remembering only now to put Gnomon, with his superior "Perception" and "Danger Sense," in the lead. We turn a corner and come to another door, which fortunately opens in response to force. In this room, we find in a corner a mattock, three torches, a tinderbox, and—hallelujah—some lockpicks. We also step on a couple of traps—so much for Gnomon's "Danger Sense"—but fortunately they don't do any damage. There are also a couple of braziers, which I leave alone for now.
   
Yet another door takes a few tries, and a few injuries, to open, and then we immediately hit another one, then a third, which I can't open after multiple tries. For @*#!'s sake, does this game have to have so many locked doors? Maybe we could have, I don't know, a battle or two?
     
I hear you.
      
In another direction, a stairway goes upwards, and the corridor ends in a shaft with iron rungs on the sides. We can climb up or down. I go up first, and we find the top of the shaft blocked with a stone slab, but examining the slab reveals a secret compartment with a healing potion and a double-bearded key. The experience covers us in soot and reduces everyone's charisma by 2 points. This still has not recovered as of the end of this session.
     
Climbing down the shaft deposits us on a different level of the dungeon, which I decide to explore even though I haven't finished the one above. Continuing to follow the right wall, we encounter:
   
  • Two more locked doors that respond to forcing them open.
  • A hole in the bottom of a wall. We scare some rats away with a torch and scoop some coins and gems out of the hole.
     
Next stop: the Bocca della Verità.
       
  • A door that opens to lockpicks. There are two chests behind it. Between them, they have two Girdles of Might, 3 boots, 3 shields, 3 iron shields, a throwing axe, a hatchet, and a skull girdle. The Girdles of Might are particularly powerful, raising strength by 5 points. The skull girdle reduces necrophobia by 4 points. This treasure does not feel "earned."
     
The girdle snaps into place.
      
  • In a chest in a hallway, we find cart grease and a crank. Inventory space is starting to become a problem.
  • A stairway brings us back to the previous level. You'd think that strength of 18 would be enough to break down doors, but a few of them still give us trouble.
  • More braziers in the hallways just injure us when we try to move them and dirty us when we search them. 
  • Two more chests behind a locked door. Together they have two more Girdles of Might, a wolf knife, a quarterstaff, two oils, a lantern, a strong healing potion, an Elixir of Strength, an Elixir of Dexterity, 2 Hylailian Fires (I guess you can throw this like a ranged weapon?), a recipe for Vomicum (I don't quite know what it is, but yuck), a recipe for Hylailian Fire, and a document. I don't know whether the elixirs are temporary or permanent. I have no room for most of this stuff, so I have to do some shuffling. Again, some of these items do not feel earned.
       
Sighing and swearing should not be the reaction when an RPG player discovers a chest.
       
  • The document has a bunch of words missing vowels. I think it says: "The orc scum is now besieging Lowangen but they have overlooked an exit. Find it and you'll be able to leave the besieged town of war without harm." I don't imagine that this can refer to current events.
      
Let me know if you come up with anything different.
       
  • The next room—you have to be @#*#$* kidding—has two more chests: An alchemy set, a crystal ball, a robe, an obsidian dagger, something called "kukris mengbilar," 2 bronze flasks, fire powder, and a document. The second chest has a trap that causes Toliman to lose his lock picks and 4 dexterity points for a few hours. My inventory problem is critical now. I end up tossing a lot of stuff that I could sell for good money.
  • The document in that last pair of chests takes me a few minutes. The message is backwards, with breaks in the wrong places: "ONE PIT OF MANY LAYERS DEPTH: THERE LIES THE HATRED OF ORCS AGAINST [garbled; I think it's supposed to be MANKIND] IN WAIT. ANY WHO WANT TO ESCAPE THIS PIT, WILL HAVE TO CONTROL THEMSELVES AND THEIR BODIES WELL. EACH UNNECESSARY SOUND CAN TURN ALL THE GUARDS AGAINST YOU AT ONCE AND SEAL YOUR FATE. BUT WITH TRUE CARE AND STEALTH A SUCCESS WILL BE EASILY ACCOMPLISHED."
           
This took a while because I thought the first word was SHIELD anagrammed and figured the rest of the words were also anagrams.
        
The last room on Level 1 that I finally force open is a large chamber. Each corner has a brazier. There's an altar on the north wall and two nooks in the south wall, one with a relief of Ingerimm's face and one with an anvil. We light the torches around the relief, which causes some rumbling from a level beneath us.
        
Notice, Toliman, that you hold the iron with the tongs and hammer with, well, a hammer.
       
We find nothing to do at the anvil or with any of the braziers. At the altar, Toliman is granted a vision in which he is serving as an apprentice to Ingerimm at a forge. The rest of the party, seeing Toliman in a trance, has options to address him, touch him, take some coins, or tithe some coins. I try addressing him first, which breaks the trance. (I save and reload to try the other options. Touching him also breaks the trance. Taking gold from the altar causes a rumbling below; tithing causes Toliman's vision to repeat.) I wonder how Gnomon feels about an elf getting a vision of Ingerimm.
   
We head back to the second level, which I end up exploring twice. The cause of the reload is a riddle. In a large room with a slab in the middle of the floor, we go to open a chest. A little gnome (not a D&D gnome, but a classic fairy-tale gnome) interrupts us, chides us for stealing other people's property, and demands a gift. (We have an option to attack him, but we decline) I give him a ration package. He introduces himself as Mumpitz of Zappendust-Zwackenpurtz, "Mumpsy" for short. He waves a key in front of  us and gives us this riddle: "They bear palms for their attire, and yet they wear no clothes. You can ride on their backs, yet nobody does."
     
I should have just attacked him.
      
The solution has five letters, but I can't make anything out of it. After two wrong guesses, he tells us the answer is MOOSE, puts us to sleep, and we wake up in a hallway without the key. How does MOOSE make any sense as a response to that riddle? "Bear palms"?! Is the idea supposed to be that antlers somehow represent palms? Whether you're talking about the tree or the part of the hand, they don't. So I didn't feel bad reloading and doing it again.
   
More encounters on this level: 
     
  • Gnomon finds several disused pairs of compartments in the wall for bolts.
  • We enter a room where the wall closes behind us. A crank we found earlier fits in a hole in the wall and opens the way out. The game is perhaps a bit too detailed in its description of how the entire crank assembly works.
     
This is one of three screens describing the mechanism. If Dungeon Master did this, the game would take 600 hours.
       
  • A chest with 10 ration packages, 10 water skins, 10 sets of cutlery, 10 sets of tableware, and a drinking horn. I drink from my existing water skins and drop them, then take the rations, drinking horn, and enough water skins to make up what I dropped. Notable about this game: You can take items out of chests but not put them in. Items dropped are lost forever. Both things are true of most games of the era, but a spate of titles like Ultima Underworld, Ambermoon, and Betrayal at Krondor have gotten me used to the opposite.
     
Who would possibly have room for all of this?
     
  • A door we can't open despite multiple attempts at everything. It just leads into a one-square room. Probably another chest in there.
  • There's a pressure plate and a wall switch in the same corridor, but they don't have any effect on anything that I can see. 
  • We pull a chain on a wall in a room and are dropped into a tiny room with a bunch of dwarf skeletons to fight. It's a tough battle because it's impossible to maneuver. I have trouble even clicking on the enemies. We're successful, but all we get from the battle is a bunch of hatchets that we can't carry.
        
You really get to know your enemy in such cramped quarters.
       
  • We're left very bruised and bloodied, so I decide to spend a couple dozen hours resting. We're attacked by spiders while resting, and we hear the sound of blows on an anvil somewhere below us.
       
"That's just the hammerer, men. Hammers every Friday and Sunday night exactly at 12:00. Nobody's ever seen him."
      
  • This time, we answer the riddle correctly and get the key. The gnome still puts us to sleep. We awaken in different parts of the dungeon and have to spend some time re-uniting the party. 
   
With nothing else to do on Level 2, we take the stairs down to Level 3. Here, the regular wall textures are supplemented with some mining cart tracks on the floors. Encounters:
   
  • A rusted mining cart. We have the option to use the cart grease (found earlier) on the wheels. This gets it moving, and Xamidimura has the option to hop in for a ride. She does and swoops down the track, ignoring several opportunities to bail out, until the cart crashes into a wall and sends Xamidimura tumbling, taking significant damage. I have no idea what this accomplished.
     
Whether I jump off or it throws me off, it amounts to the same thing.
      
  • Toliman up and decides on his own, with no input from me, to go jumping down an ore chute leading to another room. He lands in a pile of ore. He has the option to take a piece but cannot bear the weight. Luckily, the other room is not too far away, and we're able to reunite without much trouble.
      
Idiot elf.
      
  • We encounter a pit. We have the option to jump across, and after selecting someone, we have the option to secure that person with a rope. Gnomon makes it, ties the rope to the other side, and everyone crosses hand-over-hand. A nearby lever closes the pit entirely.
  • A chest offers 10 pitons, a rope ladder, a grappling hook, and a rope. Since we already have all those things, we leave them alone. 
  • We find an altar with runes that indicate it is dedicated to Tordol, who "founded the pit," plus "the victims of some kind of mining disaster."
       
You could not pay me to work underground for any amount of money.
        
  • A room full of graves, each with war axes on top of them. We leave them alone.
  • Another room with two chests. They contain: coins, a kukris dagger, a whetstone, two knives, a dagger, a heavy dagger, and a sickle. We manage to make room for the coins and kukris dagger. 
  • At an anvil, Toliman grabs a pair of tongs and starts hammering away with them (?), apparently having a flashback to his vision. Gnomon grabs the tongs from him and tosses them.
       
You didn't really learn much about smithing from that vision, did you?
     
  • In a corner, we find some utensils and a large ball and chain. I figure the ball and chain must either be a quest item or a practical joke. I hope it's the latter, as I have nowhere near enough capacity for it.
  • We run into a corner that still smells like a latrine "even though this place must be out of use for decades by now." That reminds me of an account I read of excavations of an ancient community in Israel (I wish I could remember where) in which archaeologists reported that the earth under the privy still had its characteristic odor despite the facility having been abandoned for thousands of years.
      
I don't particularly like reading about latrines, but I appreciate the realism.
       
  • We spend a bunch of time clearing debris in a corridor, only to have it end in a dead-end.
  • We find a single skeleton in a nook. It animates and attacks us. After an easy victory, we find a scrap of vellum with some words. The fragmented text talks of a coin of stone, Ingerimm's forge, some kind of portal, and a companion named Madevik who was buried in a rockslide.
      
Doesn't look so lively here.
     
In another area that requires a lot of digging, we find some red jewelry, a copper key, and an asthenil dagger. It takes so long to dig through this area that we run out of water. I head back to the previous level and grab those extra few water skins. On the plus side, Gnomon gains some experience from these excavations and levels up. 
           
Too many "yeses" ended up starving us.
     
I like all the miscellaneous encounters, I guess. I'd like them more if there had been a couple proper shops in the town and I could have cleared some inventory space first. I'm surprised at the lack of combats. I can't remember back to Blade of Destiny well enough to say if combat rarity was a feature of that game, but I don't remember commenting on it if it was.. 
 
Miscellaneous notes:
       
  • What is the purpose of the two creatures in the upper-right and lower-left corners of the interface? In Might and Magic, they signal secret doors and traps. Here, I've never seen them move. Are they activated by spells? 
  • I'm not sure how the game decides which character performs certain actions. Sometimes, it's the leader, which I understand. But why did it decide that Xamidimura would ride the mining cart, or that Toliman would get the vision of Ingerimm? 
    
Next time, we'll see if we can finish this dungeon. 
    
Time so far: 19 hours 

72 comments:

  1. Hello!

    Ingra is an old name for the god Ingerimm in northern Aventuria. He is usually called Angrosch by dwarves and Gravesh by orcs. His other many names probably do not appear in the trilogy, only epithets.

    The image of Ingerimm here is presumably meant to resemble Karl Marx. The poem also alludes to a workers' song from the 19th century. However, the Aventurian Ingerimm cult is unlikely to be sympathetic to either Marxism or predatory capitalism. Not at all!!!

    Indeed, Hylailian Fires can be thrown as ranged weapon, as in Blade of D.. Vomicum is a rather harmless poison you can use in battle too.
    All the elixirs are temporary.
    A mengbilar is a dagger with a poison channel. Kukris is a powerful poison, also known as kingmaker.
    Fire powder is an unique item.

    "I wonder how Gnomon feels about an elf getting a vision of Ingerimm." Not just you!

    The riddle of the gnome is horribly translated!

    Don't worry: The ball and chain are an quest item!

    The two creatures in the upper-right and lower-left corners of the interface are just for decoration.

    "I'm not sure how the game decides which character performs certain actions. Sometimes, it's the leader, which I understand. But why did it decide that Xamidimura would ride the mining cart, or that Toliman would get the vision of Ingerimm? "
    Partly it's random, partly it's the leader, partly it depends on the negative characteristics. In social interactions, it's partly dependent on gender. The one vision of Ingerimm occurs to a wearer of the asthenil ring... for whatever reason.

    Rot 13:
    Gur ynetr nzbhagf bs rdhvczrag fgvyy znxr frafr sebz n tnzrcynl crefcrpgvir.

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    1. Thank you for the feedback. I did not end up taking the ball and chain, so now I am worried, unless you meant "AREN'T a quest item."

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    2. Negative characteristics and characters acting against the party's interest when failing a check against them do remind me of the 2016 roguelike/strategy/RPG indie hit, Darkest Dungeon.

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    3. I had misread your sentence. Half-remembered, half-read: You (may) need the chain (or something similar!) and the crank for repair purposes, otherwise you could get stuck in a dead end. But the Transversalis spell also helps out!

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    4. You can repair the crank with a rope. It Just takes a lot longer

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  2. "The game notes that the key gets stuck in the lock, so the door locks behind us"
    I'm having problems picturing how this could happen

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    1. Nevertheless, it's more explanation than 99% of games give you for why a key goes away after you use it in a lock.

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  3. I think the belts of strengh are a concession of the game that combat plays a much larger role in a computer RPGs, and strength is therefore much more important. An imported party would likely already have a few of these. The dwarven pit is low on combat (it's abandoned after all), other dungeons have more of it.

    Lockpicks can be bought. I forgot them, too, and entering the dungeon a different way I only found the ones provided at the end. Doors could be openend by strength, though, and the ones that didn't work just required specific keys.

    Make sure to have a few inventory spots open at all times!

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    1. I think there's a single Girdle of Strength in entire Blade of Destiny, so, no - it was a concession to overencumbrance.

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    2. Combat, not overencumbrance. I thought there were two in BoD, maybe there was only one. But it doesn't matter much - a lot of quality of life improvements were introduced only in Star Trail, after all BoD was made on the developers private money. I think this is one. There are six of them, on the first (second?) level of the first dungeon the player is likely to encounter. That's not by accident.

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    3. I mean, to be fair, overencumbrance is mostly relevant for combat, so it's a bit of a potato/potato situation.

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  4. Dwarven Pit is a rather unique dungeon in that it's almost entirely non-combat (the few encounters you do get are all entirely optional) - which makes certain narrative sense since it's an actively maintained temple of a friendly race. Other dungeons in the game are more balanced, but on the whole Star Trail is far less combat-heavy than Blade of Destiny. Since in the TDE ruleset, the non-combat mechanics are just as important and detailed - if not more so - as combat, I believe the devs' goal was for Star Trail to reflect this mechanical diversity as faithfully as possible.

    Which brings us back to the subject of dialogs. I believe the whole dialog mechanic was the attempt to make social skills relevant - IIRC, the number of things you can ask before being thrown out of the conversation is tied to the leader's social skills. It might not be the most successful attempt - the result of failure is more annoying than impactful - but given that social gameplay barely existed in the era, I think it deserves some acknowledgement. And reiterating my previous comment: the vagueness of the English manual is entirely on Sir-Tech; the original German one tells you to click on the same topic several times in no uncertain terms.

    Couple more assorted thoughts:
    - There is an alternative entrance to the mine that you could have found if you wandered around Finsterkamm on the world map a bit. I don't remember anymore if that stone slab you couldn't lift from the inside was it or not; I think it was.
    - It might have not been a particularly good idea to loot a friendly temple, especially after being explicitly told not to by the priest. I'm not 100% sure (some stuff the dwarves don't care about you taking), but I think you've looted enough by now to trigger some consequences.

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    1. Well, Inradon warnend not to steal the gold. But (ROT13)
      vs V'z abg zvfgnxra, vg bayl ersref gb gur erny gernfher orybj.
      And it was wise not to disturb the peace of the graves.

      I'd go so far as to call this dwarf pit the game's beginners dungeon, even though it's extremely non-linear.

      I think the alternate access point is still to come. Save before exiting!

      The power belts could also be intended to help with carrying capacity.

      To create inventory space, you can bundle keys on the keyring and transfer recipes to a recipe book.

      Speaking of the books, I'm curious:

      What do you, Chester, and the commentators here think of the diary features in Star Trail?

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    2. > And it was wise not to disturb the peace of the graves.

      Disturbing some of these graves at least gives good XP, no?

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    3. Looting the graves not only angers Boron and Ingerimm (means: it reduces the prestige value in the background), (ROT13-coded) vg nyfb gevttref n qrnqyl genc qrrcre va gur cvg. Ba gurve jnl onpx, Tabzba naq uvf pbzcnavbaf pna ybbg gurz sbe KC jvgubhg qlvat.

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    4. @Titus, I don't remember how exactly the diary in Star Trail was, but I found it very immersive in Shadows over Riva.

      @Chet, btw, it's actually a good idea to check it from time to time. IIRC, it works much like the journal in Morrowind and the entries sometimes may reveal or clarify some clues that weren't clear from the dialogs themselves, saving you some frustration (at least there were a couple of moments like this in SoR).

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    5. I'll try to remember to talk about it next time.

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  5. Phew, this sounds more and more like the designers wanted to put in as many aspects as possible from The Dark Eye and forgot that the game should also be, well, fun. Especially for people who don’t know the TDE rule books by heart.

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  6. Even with occasional Google searches, I still found this dungeon to be overly complex. There's a significant item you can completely miss just by doing something absolutely normal and expected (with no indication that you shouldn't). I interpret the plethora of Belts of Magic to be an admission that the encumbrance mechanism was overly punishing, especially with so few opportunities to unload adventuring loot. I also never interpreted either scroll - I assumed I'd find a deciphering hint at some point. My puzzle solving skills appear to have atrophied thanks to two decades of Google. I definitely worked harder at this stuff back in the days when the AOL Games Forum was the only place to go for game assistance!

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  7. There is another entrance to this dungeon, by the way. Even if a player doesn't get the key from the priest, exploring the mountains in the vicinity of Finsterkoppen does the trick. Looking for another entrance is a logical thing to do, if they barred you from using the main entrance.

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    1. I think computer games usually teach players that obstacles are meant to be overcome, even when sidestepping them would be more sensible. If a door has a lock, it reads as "meant to be opened with a key". A powerful enemy reads as "meant to be beaten" -- if it has a health bar, it can die.

      It's difficult for a game to communicate "no really, don't attack this head-on" without making the obstacle clearly insurmountable, such as a caved-in entrance or an enemy that beats the player in a cutscene.

      In a LOTR CRPG, you couldn't prevent players from repeatedly charging the Balrog, all nine Nazgul and Mordor's army head-on, unless you prevent those routes with scripted defeats.

      Multiple approaches do work well when the game teaches them from the start, like in Deus Ex. But even there, obstacles that are mechanically beatable are interpreted as intended challenges, not cues to find another path.

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    2. And if the game clearly signals that an obstacle isn’t beatable within the mechanics, it also removes the player’s chance to outsmart the challenge by their own initiative.

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    3. Bitmap, you are authentically on to something here. We need to develop this into a full entry at some point.

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    4. @Bitmap
      Maybe. But I still think it is a sign of a true CRPG to offer alternative paths and solutions. Star Trail here has both bad and good design choices. The method of getting the key is a bad design. Offering an alternative path is a good design. And Star Trail encourages exploration by offering a lot of unique encounters while traveling, thus nudging the player to search the mountains.

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    5. Yeah but I am always surprised how many folks here overlook that a crpg is, above it all, a computer game, and should be fair on computer game parameters, which are based on certain models that are either known or can be understood.

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    6. I don't think it's particularly bad design tbh. I believe it's perfectly possible and logical to find either entrance into the Pit while playing organically. Let's speculate what would happen, had the commenters not spoiled Chet the priest dialog: he'd have made a trip to Lowangen and found no new info about the Pit there (although it wouldn't have been a useless trip in other regards). The logical thing to do next is to return to Finsterkamm and check again if he missed anything. At this point, either exploring the world map in the vicinity of Finsterkoppen would have revealed the back entrance, or making another round of the NPCs in the city would have revealed that the priest has different dialog when asked about the Pit. Yes, it's more work and backtracking, especially given the travel system - but I kinda enjoyed it back in the day because it gave you a real sense of investigation.

      Also, RPGs have been using difficult obstacles (particularly, enemies) to funnel the player into specific paths since times immemorial. Almost all the open-world games without level-scaling have the "the enemies in this area are too difficult for your current party, check somewhere else first" structure. So I'm not sure how this is any different.

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    7. This does sound like the issue of a game needing to teach you how to play it.

      Not all mechanics and assumptions are evenly distributed across all CRPGs... so it's not necessarily 'obvious' that a player should go around an obstacle if THAT GAME hasn't at least provided a framework for that experience, even if other games, stories, or TTRPG experiences generally hint at it.

      Likewise for repeating conversations or backtracking; not just hinting at it in the manual, but providing early examples in the gameplay to make sure the options are always front of mind.

      The Summoning gave a good example of that right at the beginning; you're supposed to get resources from the first NPC you meet, but one of them isn't in the topic list. You have to type it in, but you also were just told about it in the game introduction, so it's a fresh bit of info to apply.

      It's not necessarily handholding the player, but you do need to establish the fact of the possibilities so that the player can then consider them as options.

      And the corollary, as Bitmap notes, is that if you've established certain things like lockpicking or typical combats as the progress method, it looks like the only path available. If the players head straight to Mordor, you've got to at the very least make the other options interesting so that they compel the curiosity of investigation.

      I wonder sometimes if issues like this come from mistaking obscurity for difficulty. (In the sense of providing challenge.) Great puzzles don't inherently hide the rules or framework; in fact you want to make that as clear as possible because the puzzle isn't in discovering the framework, it's in solving it WITHIN that framework.

      As I often wonder, how much of this also comes from an aesthetic inherited from TTRPG experiences, which may also have the obscurity problem but it's matched by players who have the ability to try or ask anything, not just click on the options and information presented.

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    8. Thanks, Chet. Feel free.

      @VK: If the player knows to return later and nothing obscure prevents progress, that’s fine.

      @Jason: Very interesting points. Obscure puzzles that block progress have become rarer over time because they make players quit. It’s not a problem if they just hide optional secrets. On the other hand, those obscure puzzles gave 80s CRPGs a sense of mystery.

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    9. @Jason: "Great puzzles don't inherently hide the rules or framework"

      You made Dungeon Master cry.

      Apart from that, I agree. Player communication is the key. But it's possible that the point the designers wanted to bring across is located a level higher, namely, as you muse, that they want players to think like in a TTRPG. But in a TTRPG session, you have a handful of players thinking about possible solutions; it's enough that one of them comes up with "maybe this isn't the right way to go." And you have a game master who listens to the player discussion and can supply subtle hints if necessary, maybe after asking one of the players to make an intelligence check for their character (!). Which could totally work here, too, having the party's dwarf make a point, but design wasn't at that level yet; remember this is five years before Baldur's Gate and six before Deus Ex.

      Delete
    10. "Obscure puzzles that block progress have become rarer over time because they make players quit." - I mean, let's face it, the level of obscurity we're dealing with here is "finding Caius Cosades in a city of ~40 buildings with explicit instructions". THAT made people quit.

      Delete
  8. "We'll never get that blasted thing open."

    I guess this can mean one of three things:

    1) It's a clue to encourage you to try harder
    2) It means this door can only be opened with the right key
    3) There's an NPC in a town 50 miles away who may or may not show up when you knock on his door. He ends every conversation after one question. If your leader has high enough charisma, or is a female elf, talking to him about the weather 5 times in a row will lead to him telling you that some doors only open at night. This one only opens at noon though.

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    Replies
    1. It's a measure of this game that I actually thought you were serious about #3. Then I realized that nothing in the game is measured in "miles."

      #1 is the correct answer, I think. They say that about every door, even the ones that eventually open.

      Delete
    2. Haha, yes. Being obscure is one thing. But this game is obscure and lies about it too. (Probably not intentionally though. Maybe just some ill-chosen flavor text).

      Delete
    3. "Nothing in the game is measured in miles."

      You sure about that?

      https://www.mocagh.org/sir-tech/arkania2-map.jpg

      (...which fortunately doesn't mean that Commentman's suggested solution is correct.)

      Delete
  9. About the moose riddle, I wonder if the "they bear palms for their attire, and yet they wear no clothes" part said originally (in the German text) something like "they wear gloves for their attire, and yet their wear no clothes" because moose hide is (I suppose) used for making gloves.

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    Replies
    1. At least in (the German version of) the HD remake, the "moose" riddle is both different (and I think somewhat better) in the description (the first part being "they do not sit on a throne, but still wear a crown") and also easier to solve as there are six potential answers given to choose from (the other five being "kings", "mountains", "kobolds", "chicken" and "donkeys").

      See the moment in a playthrough video here.

      Delete
    2. The English version seems better than the German original! And it's a good translation indeed! (I need to correct myself...)
      I did a bit research: "Palm" is in English a term for "antlers" of a moose.
      The original German version says:
      "Sie haben kein Geweih, aber dennoch tragen sie eine Krone. Man kann darauf reiten, aber dennoch tut es keiner."
      This roughly translates to:
      "They have no antlers, but they wear a crown. You can ride them, but nobody does."
      In German the "antlers" are often colloquially referred to as the "Krone" (crown).
      But the technically correct term for the "head attire" of a moose is "Geweih" (antlers), while "Schaufeln" (shovels) is the specific term for the (large) antlers of a male moose.
      Krone (crown) seems the term for the lower parts of the "headdress" of the moose in technical language.

      By the way, somewhere in Star Trail, a human (or elf?) is riding a moose.

      Perhaps someone else knows much better.....

      Delete
    3. Thanks, Busca!

      Delete
    4. Heh, Germans and their obesession with elks/moose. When I had a summer job sorting post cards, nearly all going to Germany had elks on them.
      And Norway's most famous footballer in Germany, before "Haland" (how hard is it really for germans to pronounce Haaland correctly?), was called "der Elk."

      Delete
    5. PS: Based on this thread, apparently in the (German) original version, the first part of the riddle was: "They do not have antlers [Geweih], but still wear a crown", which does not make sense either since at least what grown male moose sport is also called a "Geweih" in German, even though somewhat different from that of e.g. most deer and therefore more specifically named "Schaufelgeweih" (Schaufel = shovel).

      It looks like due to this feedback during the Early Access phase, the description in the HD remake was changed to the one in the video linked above.

      And now that I post this, I see Titus has already mentioned the original German wording as well.

      Delete
    6. To be fair, as Titus also mentions, apparently the main bodies of the "shovel antlers" of moose and fallow deer are indeed called "palms" in English based on a similarity with outstretched hands and the form of their antlers thus "palmate".

      However, it's probably true as well that outside of people specialising or otherwise quite interested in the subject, like biologists or hunters, this is not a known term (it's the first time I ever heard of it, not being a native speaker) and therefore the association not easily made in this riddle.

      Delete
    7. In the Bornland (a roughly imitated Russia in northeastern Aventuria), moose are occasionally ridden.
      A Colonel Jergan Radab of the Bornland army (and recurring character) wanted to raise a unit of moose cavalry and was ridiculed for it.
      After 31 years in the real world, he was finally able to realize his dream!

      Delete
    8. I don't think answering the riddle right has any effect, by the way. Mumpy just says even an Ork could have gotten that. It felt to me like you're not really expected to get it right, and I wouldn't have been surprised if the answer changed on a reload.

      Delete
    9. "palms" being a technical word for antlers is delightfully obscure. Now I'm wishing for the term to come up in one of Chet's crosswords...

      Delete
    10. @PO Serious answer: That depends if that German person speaks a dialect which has the å sound, Bavarian has it for example. Others will likely confuse it with a or o.

      Delete
    11. Well, I've consulted some dictionaries, and I concede that the broad part of a moose's antlers are indeed called "palms." I suspect that fewer than 1 in 100 English speakers would know this, however. I guess the real question is how necessary the silver key is.

      Delete
    12. Buck, I didn't get his silver key when I answered it wrong.

      Delete
    13. Regarding the importance of the silver key: no worries.

      Rot13: Vg nyybjf lbh gb yrnir gur fnzr jnl lbh ragrerq. Ohg gurer vf n frpbaq rkvg ng gur raq naljnlf.

      Delete
    14. I translated your ROT13. Now I'm tempted to leave the dungeon and go all the way back to the nearest basic town just to sell stuff.

      Delete
    15. Being a loot goblin is typically not worth it in this game. You will have enough money and many items are just not worth much.

      Delete
    16. @PO: Rune Bratseth, unforgotten Bremen!

      Delete
  10. Moose antlers are called "palmate" because the broad flat surfaces (sort of) look like hands, as opposed to deer and most other cervids, which are more of just a series of branches.

    Still a terrible riddle, to be clear.

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  11. If this was any other platform I'd wonder if this was rage/engagement bait. But since there is no algorithm to feed with user engagement... I'm not sure what's going on here: Why does your screenshot with the Girdle of Might show you equipping it in the off hand instead of the belt slot?
    Like, the UI even highlights the belt slot on the screenshot.... How... I'm confused.

    Usually I'd guess it's from RoA 1 which didn't have a belt slot, but since it was a long time since you played that it's not a good explanation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In order to trigger the little animation, which I wanted to get a screen shot of, you have to unequip the item and re-requip it. I took it off the waist, put it in the hand, then put it back on the waist. The game doesn't show its final location until the animation finishes.

      You thought one screenshot you didn't understand was "rage/engagement bait"?

      Delete
    2. Ah, that makes sense, thank you for the patient explanation :)

      Engagement bait works even better if there is a good explanation, even if that clearly wasn’t your intent here.

      Delete
  12. A hatred of orcs against MAN-KIN.

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  13. "The dwarven god of the forge looks a lot like Kurt Russell."
    This is not an accident. When the game came out I had the chance to talk to one of the Beta testers. I remember two things from this conversation, first that the designers sometimes just scanned magazines for digital portraits and second that he tested and played through the game with weird parties, e.g. six priests.

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  14. This entry reflected my feelings back then, when I played it, really well:
    *getting lost in mostly irrelevant details and micromanaging
    *lots of trial and error, since it's so unpredictable what any of your actions will cause, it's basically random
    *all the stuff that happens totally at random (like your elf, of all characters, decides to fool around in a mine)
    *Cursing

    This is a game I really wanted to like, but after the "life simulation" bloat, there is very few of a crpg even left, and it's not especially good. I know low magic scenarios have their fans, but for me, itemization and upgrades are part of character development. Maybe I'm too much of a numbers person to enjoy that more than all those random flair encounters and chance cards, but I prefer my games tight.

    ReplyDelete
  15. 'Treasure does not feel "earned".'

    Sounds to me like another manifestation of one of the the two somewhat different approaches/preferences reflected in the comments. It indicates the attitude that treasure/loot should be a reward commesurate to the challenge overcome in the game before finding/getting it, e.g. a big boss fight or otherwise especially hard battle or a series of difficult puzzles.

    Life is not always logical or fair/proportionate that way, though, so if you go more for a 'purely' or stronger simulationist feeling, that correlation is not necessarily something you'd always see.

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    Replies
    1. That may be true, but what life certainly doesn't do is leaving priceless artifacts out in the open. As sucinum above points out, this is a "low magic" world. Any "simulation" of Arkania/Aventuria as it was established should know that on the entire continent, maybe a dozen people know the spell that makes artifacts work permanently and forever, instead of just having a few couple charges. Multiple girdles of strength+5 lying out in the open is basically equivalent to DARPA storing combat suit prototypes in the janitor's closet.

      Delete
    2. @Ancient Architect
      Yes, but that girdles are lying in a major, albeit abandoned, temple of a god, with the entrance locked and guarded. It is not as far-fetched as it may seem at a first sight.

      Delete
    3. I normally leave my valuables where I stand, but sometimes it feels good to have a couple of XL-broadswords on me. Plus my whole fortune for some reason.

      Delete
    4. Also, "'Treasure does not feel 'earned'" - because it isn't! Chet's party is literally robbing the dwarves blind.

      Delete
    5. Indeed, it has often been criticized that the "flood" of magical items/weapons is inconsistent with The Dark Eye. Especially during the 3rd edition, magical artifacts were rare compared to most other fantasy RPGs. There was a suggestion that magical weapons, in particular, should only appear if they had a name, an origin story, and a narrative purpose in the game.

      However, I think it's right that the trilogy has different standards. Besides, it's really not guaranteed that the player will find all the magical weapons... but gifting magical girdles to the whole party seems odd...

      Delete
    6. While I understand these arguments, that was not my point and I might not have expressed this clearly enough when mentioning the 'simulationist' aspect in this context.

      The CRPG Addict did not say "I thought magical items were supposed to be quite rare in the world of the Dark Eye" or "It does not appear logical / realistic (within the setting) for so many valuable artifacts to lie around unguarded". He wrote - twice - that obtaining these does "not feel earned".

      To me this means 'from a game/gaming perspective', as part of the traditional CRPG cycle of 'fight - loot - (sell&buy -) upgrade, repeat', with the loot and upgrade being the -proportionate- reward for the fight or series of fights and other overcome challenges. All in the service of a respective gaming experience focused on this cycle as the or at least one of the core elements.

      What I was trying to say in my second paragraph is that this not always being the case in a game might point in the same direction as random events and encounters apparently not having a bearing for and effect on the larger story ('What was the point of this?') as well as the survivalist elements.

      It seems to me there is a spectrum from the pure cycle mentioned above (e.g. in some dungeon crawlers) to just 'living in a world' with all (randomness and micro-managing) that entails (and yes, there are limits - I know probably nobody wants to have to actively go to the loo regularily in a CRPG). While it's not black or white and everybody has their own sweet spot on said spectrum, to me the comments still have shown some marked tendencies in one direction or the other and this phrasing plus a couple other remarks indicate this game is further to the latter end than the CRPG Addict prefers.

      Delete
    7. Exactly! Back in the day I never dared taking anything from that temple lest I incur the dwarf god's wrath. Which was, without internet walkthroughs and the like, an entirely plausible scenario within the confines of the game.

      Delete
    8. Well, I certainly didn't mean that CRPG Addict has expectations for Star Trail based on what's typical for TDE. My comment referred to Ancient Architect and frequent comments in reviews—possibly unnecessary.

      I largely agree with your observation and assessment, Commenter.

      But I think the numerous girdles of might are excessive, be it as a reward or a find by chance, gamistic or simulationistic approach (to which I am inclined), but I'll leave that rambling on.

      Delete
    9. The belts are excessive, but are they really that different from the two levels worth of experience points for a simple combat at the beginning, or just starting the game at a higher level the way most games would do it?

      Delete
  16. Did you search the dwarf town for shops?

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  17. A thought after reading and re-reading all of the comments today.

    I think there is a problem with how people perceive Stat Trail. It does many thing unconventionally, but only by the stereotyped CRPG\JRPG mechanics people are habitual to. It offered two ways to enter the temple, but people bash the game for making the way to access the main entrance obscure and not telegraphing explicitly about a hidden alternative entrance in the wilderness. The game offers magical rewards for finally entering and exploring the temple, but people complain what the magical items are not guarded by some tough battles or puzzles and so not feel earned.

    In other words, if you make a standard, conventional CRPG, people will complain about it being, well, standard. But if you make a semi-unconventional CRPG, people will start complaining it does things differently!

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    Replies
    1. Or they might "complain" at first but later start to appreciate the game when it becomes clear what the game is doing.

      Delete
  18. If you paste the moose riddle into Google, the AI will offer a sort-of explanation. (Although I suspect it got all its information from this blog post.)

    ReplyDelete

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