Tuesday, March 15, 2022
BRIEF: AtariROGUE (1987)
44 comments:
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I am curious what games involve scripted pseudo-development that you want to skip? Well there's the Mystara D&D arcade games, but those don't have a PC release anyway (except by emulation).
ReplyDeleteI wonder where Metroidvanias fit in in all this. You gain new abilities by finding certain items, so it's pre-determined spots, but the games are non-linear in structure.
DeleteI suspect those are excluded because character development needs to include "leveling" and combat needs to be based on "attribute-derived statistics" and so the mere accumulation of equipment isn't enough.
DeleteNow when we get to a metroidvania that has leveling and attributes, I'm not sure, but the current rules exclude most of them.
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is probably the ur-example of the genre, and there is leveling, with multiple stats. Physical and magical attacks get more powerful as you level; it's not just based on equipment. So 1997, but only if Chet wants to cover a PS1 game. Don't know about the first one that would be on PC, though.
DeleteMetroidvanias almost always include leveling and stats, as well as accumulation of equipment. By any reasonable definition that isn't specifically tuned to exclude them, they are action-adventure-RPGs or something of the sort.
DeleteI came into contact with the genre on Newgrounds in the late 00s and early 10s, where some people uploaded Metroid-style platformers made in Flash. Later I played Super Metroid on an emulator.
DeleteNone of these have leveling, you just pick up items and gain new abilities from them. But there is no separate term for "Metroid-like", they are also referred to as Metroidvanias.
So I'm somewhat confused about the term. Does a game NEED Castlevania SotN elements to be a Metroidvania, or is being a Super Metroid clone enough?
As far as I'm aware, Super Metroid clone is the minimum, but a lot of more modern examples added the RPG elements from Castlevania. Personally, I feel like the major defining features of a Metroidvania are being a sidescrolling action adventure, with exploration and item based progression. RPG elements are optional, but nice to have.
DeleteI was using the term literally, the "Metroid-like Castlevanias". If folks are talking about Metroid-like games in general, yeah, it's a mixed bag between games that are like Metroid (no RPG elements) and games that are like SotN (RPG elements).
Delete"Metroidvania" does not mean "Metroid-like Castlevania", though. It's a fairly well-codified genre name that means, broadly speaking, an action platformer with a large, interconnected world, gated at least somewhat nonlinearly by access to various utility and combat items.
DeleteIt's even got its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroidvania
Before the rise of indie Metroid-like games, it did mean "Metroid-like Castlevania". People talked about "the Metroidvanias" and meant, exclusively, the handheld Castlevania games; there were so few games in the genre outside of Metroid and Castlevania that the genre didn't really have a name. The term expanded later to be the name of the genre, but it has only been that for about a decade.
DeleteIt seems a common problem on this blog that, like the post just above, people insist on using terms literally instead of for what they mean.
DeleteChet's glossary even spells out that not every game where you "play a role" is an RPG. Going "but literally..." or "but technically..." on that isn't helping the discussion any.
Sorry for being old and using the term the way I learned it, I guess. I went out of my way to explain myself after I realized it was confusing, so what's the problem?
DeleteTo be a pedantic nerd, the Mystara games do have a PC release: https://store.steampowered.com/app/229480/Dungeons__Dragons_Chronicles_of_Mystara/ which I don't think is emulation (or at least, uses a very highly modified emulator) because it adds tons of features around the games.
ReplyDeleteBut it didn't come out until 2013, and it still doesn't really qualify as an RPG in any case. They're great games, though, so I wanted to make sure people know you can still buy and play them. I fed so many quarters into those machines...
I was actually just about to post the same thing (just clicked into another tab to confirm the pc release date, and your comment had played by the time I checked back) so if you’re a pedantic nerd, you’re not alone!
DeleteI’d second the opinion that they’re very fun, and given their deeper-than-you’d think implementation of DnD rules and tropes I think they’re definitely interesting to check out even for folks who are primarily into CRPGs.
Given the programming platforms available in 1987, it strikes me that BASIC back then was actually one of the EASIER ones to program a roguelike in.
ReplyDeleteDo roguelikes require anything "real timish" or are they can they be turn based? The latter is easy (ish) on 1980s interpreted BASIC because performance is not a problem. The former is effectively impossible as far as I can tell.
DeletePretty much all classic roguelikes are turn-based.
DeleteI remember typing in these games from magazines of the day. The write-up would get me all excited about the epic adventure I was about to undertake. Then I'd type "Run" and get...this. Oh well. At least it kept me from getting fresh air and exercise, so it wasn't a total loss.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right about redefining your criteria for playing these games. Almost any game can be classed as an RPG if you really stretch the definition, so it pays to focus on the games that you really want to examine, rather than just playing anything with "hit points."
Same here. I had a rough metric of one hour/page (my typing speed has since improved), and I had to decide if I would get enough enjoyment from the game to justify the amount of time I spent typing in the listing. Sadly, I was disappointed more often then not.
Delete'...as I try to decide how I'm going to approach my master list from now on.'
ReplyDeleteSorry, not a Patreon yet, but this can only mean that you reconsider jumping in between years instead of following chronology? Not that many ways to approach a master list.
I haven't announced anything along those lines on Patreon either but yes, basically, I'm toying with relaxing the chronological approach. I'm not ready to have a big discussion about it, though, so there's no point in this thread turning into a thing.
DeleteBlazing through those briefs recently! Makes the list shrink pretty quickly
ReplyDeleteNice to see so many different little oddities though!
DeleteSomeone gonna get the program listing and fix the bug? :D
ReplyDeleteThis is one reason I frown on the whole Patreon discussion thing. It creates an "ingroup" and an "outgroup" where none existed before.
Good to see all these obscure games getting entries. These are the best.
The error code is the string length is too long; so should be an easy fix
DeleteThat's kinda the point of the Patreon discussion. It gives people access to stuff if they pay for it. Welcome to the "creator economy".
DeleteA buck a month is SUCH a hurdle for anyone wanting to join that conversation? If anything it's probably a relief to Chet that he can float ideas to a smaller group before introducing them to the larger one that contains at least a couple bad faith anons or trolls.
DeleteImagine getting all the free content on this blog and then complaining about the people who want to tip the creator because they see like 3 extra discussion posts a month.
DeleteWell I hope someone fixes it!
DeleteThe three complaining posts confirm exactly what I said: there didn't used to be an ingroup and and outgroup. Now, there is. And the ingroup thinks they're the ingroup, which they are, and they look down on the outgroup, which ingroups always do.
And that's why I frown on it.
Well you are either a Patreon supporter or not, so that's definitely two groups... But, I don't actually know which one anyone is in unless they out themselves (in themselves?). Just because you are complaining about there being groups doesn't mean you are in one or the other.
DeleteRPG Codex people might see Addict patrons as the out group, even though some of them may secretly belong. Drama!
So I agree with you that there are two groups and anytime there are groups there is inness and outness of those groups. But since membership in the groups is anonymous, I don't think it actually comes up that often, this being a notable exception.
Whether I have the wherewithal to contribute financially or not, I clearly enjoy the content, which I think unites most of us more than the former divides us. And so I wouldn't want to begrudge Chet an attempt to accept money for his work. It's better than the alternatives:
1. Ads
2. Paywall
3. Chet no money
Oh and to be clear, Harland, I don't think you are arguing over the tip jar existing, just over whether there is exclusive content for paying members of the exclusive group of amazingness. I would say a couple things to that point specifically:
DeleteFirst, I also wouldn't want to begrudge Chet an attempt to incentivize giving him money, which having Patreon content does. I respect that Chet wants to keep this as minimal as possible without it being absolutely null.
Second, it could be way, way worse. We could have badges that show each commenter's contribution level, with inflated titles, glowing Avatar frames, and moderation privileges.
Third, and I know this won't sit well with you, but Chet may need a forum with a higher signal-to-noise ratio than his public blog, particularly when discussing controversial topics. Having that forum be self organizing and itself open to any member is better than him having an invite-only forum for only his favorites. Actually, I don't know that he doesn't have that, but I'd be mostly against it if he did.
Oh, God. He may have real life friends who read his blog that he talks to. I mean, Irene is kind of in a very exclusive in-group, and I bet they talk in ways that we would never get to participate in. I have to think about this...
I have similar concerns as Harland, which is why I don’t really offer much exclusive content on Patreon (and also for tax reasons). I drop an occasional entry on how my week is going, or what I’m playing on the console, or when I want to test an idea. I know that not all of my truly invested readers subscribe through Patreon, which is fine, but I know that trolls and other troublemakers DONT’T subscribe to it.
DeleteAnyways, I just want readers to know that I try my best to offer subscribers SOMETHING while not deliberately creating a division.
Oh, as for fixing the game: it's up to you, but having rejected it as an RPG, I'm not particularly interested in starting over and replaying several hours just to get the inevitable three-line congratulatory message when I find the jewel. Allowing these type-in games was probably a bad idea in the first place.
DeleteThese type-in games are essentially "independent and shareware RPGs [that] are clearly amateur efforts", anyway, so by your own rules you can skip them.
DeleteMaybe the real game is the typing... that's the fun part, not the actual playing :p
DeleteAs Chet notes... the Patreon messages are generally shorter and mainly for "this will be coming up" type thoughts. I'd enjoy the main blog just as much without them. Don't worry!
DeleteBut I like the type-in games. They're fascinating. They're the really obscure ones that never got a chance. Who knows how many hidden gems - or at least shiny rocks - are out there. You can't find them if you don't try!
DeleteI hope the next game is Betrayal at Krondor
ReplyDelete"the Jewel of Taldra. At least that doesn't spell anything backwards."
ReplyDeleteTss, tss, you obviously never heard of the famous early 80s game developer James "Arry" Ardlat and his best-selling 1982 CRPG "Dungeons of Ardlat"... ;-).
An interesting thing about the definition of RPG here is that it probably rules out the latest versions of Brogue, one of the best modern roguelikes (in my opinion). The only character development is increasing your strength and hit points, and those are both done through potions. But if you can find earlier versions, around 1.5 or 1.6, you level up by killing monsters and that increases you HP and I think your to-hit, so that might count. No economy though (gold is just for scoring, sometimes you have to choose among equipment).
ReplyDeleteAnd it makes sense; one of the things that makes Brogue great is that it's streamlined, but the parts it streamlined away may be the parts Chester really enjoys.
Stone Soup is certainly streamlined (they did away with food entirely recently) but character development from experience is still a major part of the game.
DeleteThe devs streamlined all the fun out of Stone Soup many years ago. I, for one, prefer the ancient Linley's Dungeon Crawl to the modern iterations.
DeleteStone Soup is among my favorite roguelikes purely due to the ease of play. It has a very nice interface that allows full mouse control and a very readable tileset instead of ASCII.
DeleteDCSS is fun to play, but I don't think I could ever loose myself in it as I did with Nethack. The reason might be simply me getting old, but I think it is because the experience is so smooth, I play it a lot faster and with less thought.
DeleteWhich is sort of strange because DCSS removes almost everything from the game except impactful choices. But the amount of autopilot means I sort of disengage.