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| Not terribly resourceful. I just followed the right wall. |
Ugh. Pagan. Fine.
I start in the Pit of Death. Commenters have already alerted me that I'm lost, that I need to head back to the Upper Catacombs and try to find other pathways. I don't feel like it. I just keep looping around this area:
- A corpse has a stuffed torax on it. Aww.
- I keep getting killed by gouts of flame, fireballs, and lava.
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| You can't see me because I just fell down the hole in the middle. |
- A corpse behind a grating has a plaque nearby: "MARIOTA CONVENTICLER."
- Ghouls, skeletons, ghosts. A troll. Mandrils.
- The screen repeatedly shakes for no reason whatsoever.
- More of those rolling, spiked balls.
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| What keeps them in motion? |
- Lots of lava. Lots of jumping across lava. What looks like safe spaces often give way into pits (instant death) or shoot gouts of flame.
- Lots of spell reagents. Not sure I really need them.
- I come across a big building. A plaque: "CONVENTICLE OF THE DEAD." This seems interesting. But the door is locked and won't open.
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| Ah, my old nemesis. We meet again. |
- A troll's room. It's a disaster. A backpack has a deed to a torax in it. The owner of the deed is Toliver P. Barkley. (Is he an NPC?) The torax's name is George.
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| The lack of a 5 in this document is bothering me. |
- A roomful of exploding mushrooms has a chest at the far end. It has an axe, 8 obsidian coins, and a couple of potions. Not worth it.
A doorway brings me into Stone Cove, near the entrance to the Hall of the Mountain King. Continuing to follow the right wall would have me loop through the Mountain King's domain again, then enter the cave that brought me here from the catacombs. I don't think I ever explored the rest of it, so that seems like a fine idea.
A short distance through the caves, encountering nothing more exciting than a . . . mimic? Doppelganger? Whatever the hell looks like the Avatar. I don't feel like going back to the manual. Anyway, a lever opens a gate, and my Key of the Scion opens a door. I can't tell you how much I love having an additional key that isn't activated with the (K)ey command.
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| Whatever these things are. |
The door takes me into a new cave, an enormous one, with a raised plateau in the center. Stone bridges criss-cross each other overhead, and it takes me a while to figure out how to get onto the bridge network. The plateau has a little pond in the middle, and a white stone bridge brings me to a platform in the pond. It has an emblem of a large fish carved into it. Suddenly, a tentacle comes out of the water, and a woman's voice asks: "Who dares?!"
"Are you . . . Hydros?" I ask, since the only other option is "Goodbye."
"Indeed," she responds. "Know that it is into my domain that you have trespassed. Why do you disturb my rest?"
"I wish the power of Tempestry," I say, again as my only option.
"A wise request from someone who has made a difficult journey to my current home. Alas, your request must go unfulfilled. Trapped here as I am, I cannot help you."
"What can I do?" I say, choosing it over "Goodbye" and, hilariously, "Too bad."
"Ah, you will assist me then. My gratitude will be boundless, mortal. The task is a simple one. Merely open the ground next to the gravestone of my captor's beloved, releasing the waters on the cliffside. Do that and I shall be free."
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| What happens if you just say "Goodbye"? I need to save more often. |
As per the Chronicle of Pagan, Hydros's captor was Kalen. I looked through all my notes and screenshots but couldn't find his "beloved" named anywhere. Could it have been Mariota? Why would I help free Hydros? She doesn't seem like a nice person.
Curiously, I don't see any Blackrock in the area. I thought that was how Hydros was imprisoned.
I keep on. An opening leads out of this area and into another . . . cave. I need better language to differentiate them. Probably also need to make a rough map. I pass by a troll, then come to a spiked wall with just enough of a gap in the spikes that I can jump over it. Continuing on:
- At another wall, a lever (which I nearly miss) opens a grate that lets me crawl through. Another lever turns the world upside down. Enough with that nonsense, Pagan. It wasn't fun the first time.
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| I have lowered the grate, but those spikes still look like they're going to hurt. |
- Two more trolls, but I've found that trolls don't seem to want to attack if you just leave them alone and stay out of their direct path.
- A chest, which explodes—also never gets old!—has a couple of potions and a pair of magic leggings. My armor class goes from 14 to 15 and I save two pounds.
A doorway leads to a cave full of mushrooms. There's a gravestone here: "ALEXIS. HER SPIRIT TO LITHOS I GIVE." Next to it is some kind of retaining pond. I guess this is probably Kalen's beloved. Now I have to weigh the likelihood that the developers would set all of this up just so the Avatar could make a bad decision. It wouldn't be the first time—I think of the whole "Oppression" subplot in Ultima V.
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| This might have been a mistake. |
I take a save, then cast "Open Ground." A channel opens up in front of the grave, and water goes rushing out of the retaining pond. I start to loop my way back to Hydros's chamber, running past a whole bunch of enemies that I don't feel like fighting. More encounters:
- A stairway leads up to a chest. It is completely surrounded by a fence. There are stone pillars in the room of different heights, and it looks to me as if I'm meant to climb up the shortest pillar, then jump around to the others until I can get over the fence. But I can't make it work. I leave very frustrated after 20 minutes. Let me know if there was anything vital in that chest.
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| Trying to jump up on that pillar. |
- A body in another troll cave has magic arm guards. My armor is now 17, and I save another pound. There are a lot of other minor treasures in the cave.
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| I got in this troll's way. |
The screen is misty as I return to Hydros's cave. Much of what was dry land before is now water. There's thunder and lightning. I return to the platform, and the tentacle appears again.
"Ah, I am now free! Thank you, foolish one, for your actions. Consider my gift of your wretched life as payment for your part. Now I will have my vengeance upon your pathetic kind! I will slay the descendant of my jailer! Let us see who can reach Devon first, groundling." So you won't be teaching me Tempestry, then?
I find a new teleporter pad on my way out of here. It appears in the list of destinations as "Carthax Lake." I'm glad for it, since I feel the need to go to the palace and warn Devon, but I want to be able to resume my exploration pattern when I'm done. When I arrive at the palace, I again wonder why there's a chair facing the pad on the palace roof. It also appears that the mist and thunderstorms have come with me. I rush to Devon's chamber, where thankfully he's alive.
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| It would make more sense if this was a guard post. People shouldn't just be able to teleport onto the palace roof. |
"The Lurker is free!" I warn. Devon replies that the torrential rains kind of gave it away. "Tell me, friend, how did this come to pass?" I meekly admit that I freed the titan. (Although "I know not" is another option.) He says that he's not surprised—he sensed when we first met that I was an agent of change, for good or ill. He says that an unchecked Hydros will soon flood the land, though, and I have the responsibility to stop it. He suggests that the sorcerers may be able to help.
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| Note the "foggy" effect on the screen. Or maybe it's just a bug. |
You know what annoys me? I tried to go my own way by just resolutely following the right wall, and I ended up doing things exactly in the order that the Zealan gods told me to.
I warp back to Carthax Lake and re-enter the caverns that brought me here, continuing to follow the right wall. I soon come to a blocked door. A lever opens one block but raises another. I look around and find a barely-visible switch on the wall, partly hidden behind a wall and a spike. I have to click madly around the area for a few minutes before I get the precise set of pixels that will activate it.
I come to a large cavern with a huge lava lake in the middle. On the other side, an NPC catches my eye and speaks. He says that we're in the Mouth of the Daemon, which used to be "the first test for those wishing to join the Sorcerer's Cabal. Someone has rendered it mostly useless by directing an underground river this way." Whoops. What would have happened if I'd come here first? I sheepishly admit to doing it. He says if I want to reach him, I'm going to have to learn to fly; he recommends that I seek the sorcerer named Bane.
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| The NPC lays out the new comment rules for the blog. |
So again I've managed to stumble into exactly the place the game wanted me to go. Is free will an illusion? Next game, I'm following the left wall, I don't care how unnatural it feels.
The game keeps switching between misty and not-misty as I try to find my next move. I can't find a way to cross the lava. I confirm that "Rock Flesh" protects me from damage, but the Avatar still goes "gah!" and gets stun-locked if he tries to cross the lava with the spell active. So I head back into the caverns to see what comes next. I'll probably find Bane next whether I want to or not.
The caverns wind around a bit, and it's a while (with nothing interesting except jumping over water) before I find another door (which opens with the Key of the Scion), which causes me to emerge in the sunlight on a stone path. "One world lies in ruin, nothing more than a charred shell," the Guardian says as I explore. "The other will soon fall." That's a new one. I cross a bridge and start exploring an island:
- A bunch of mandrils (I keep wanting to call them "cazadores") swarm over the corpses of two people on bedrolls next to a fishing boat. In between them is a book, which turns out to be yet another copy of Killer Jokes. Boom! Hah, hah! I'm so amused! This is fun!
- A man in blue robes roams the shore. He says he can't help me, but I should talk to Stellos.
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| I later learn that the "generic" theurgists all look like this and never have anything to offer. |
- I find a teleporter pad, which becomes available as Argentrock Isle when I use the Recall Item. (Was "item" the best they could do? It looks like a ring. Why not "Recall Ring"?) My notes say this is the home of the Theurgists as well as a silver sword named Protector. And hey—I was supposed to find a magical axe called Deceiver in Stone Cove. I wonder where that was.
- On the west end of the island, there's some kind of glyph, or maybe just a pattern in the stone, on a stone platform. I can't get anything to happen here.
- West of the glyph, the land ends at a pair of stone pillars. The first time I visit, I would swear that the game takes control of the Avatar and forces him to jump off the ledge between the pillars and into the sea. Also, the Guardian chuckles, also suggesting that something suspicious is happening. But when I reload and investigate again, this doesn't happen.
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| In the screenshot, it looks more like a void than an ocean. |
The Theurgists (healers who worship Stratos, the air titan) occupy a large compound in the center of the island. The first one I talk to is named Cyrrus, who turns out to be the son of Corinth and Gwillim, the ranchers in the Valley. He misses home greatly, and he's haunted by the inability to save his sister from a kith's bite when he was young and still coming into his powers. He really doesn't want to live on Argentrock Isle, but he can't escape the fact that he has a natural talent for theurgy (enough so that his comrades call him "Holy" Cyrrus). He pines for Jenna, the barmaid, and misses his old tutor Bentic. I have to tell him that Bentic was executed by Mordea. Nothing material comes from the conversation, but he's the first NPC in the game that I've actually liked.
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| Giving Cyrrus the bad news. |
Moving into the compound, I meet Xavier, a healer, who is also responsible for administering the first two tests for those who want to receive Stratos's enlightenment. They are the Test of Wisdom and the Test of Centeredness. The Test of Wisdom consists of five questions, and Xavier recommends that I study at the library first.
The "library" is actually the monastery. There, I read books on the spells "Intervention" (a wall of air that acts as a shield), "Hear Truth" (allows you to hear both what the speaker is saying and what the truth is), "Aerial Servant," "Healing Touch" (light healing), "Divination" (know location, day, and time), "Restoration" (full healing), "Fade from Sight" (invisibility), and "Reveal" (dispel invisibility). The books give the syllables for each spell and a "focus" but don't really tell how to cast them.
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| One of eight spellbooks. |
Other books give insights into Stratos and the virtues she prizes, most by relating some kind of parable. We learn that Stratos wants her followers to be honest to a fault, impartial, clever, kind and forgiving to children, and quiet. My favorite of the parables concerns the virtue of wit, or cleverness. A healer was called upon to administer to an injured knight, bested in combat by a vain warrior named Yevaud. Yevaud crowed that he was the best warrior in the land, but the healer said he knew of a better one. When Yevaud demanded to confront this supposedly superior warrior, the healer led him to a cave and said the warrior was inside. Yevaud emerged from the cave some time later, battered and bleeding, and complaining that the only thing in the cave had been a swarm of mandril. The healer said yes, and those mandril had recently killed a small child. By dispatching them, Yevaud had done something good with his blade and thus emerged a superior warrior. I like this story. I think it might be the best book in Ultima canon. I find myself wishing that Ultima IV had offered similar stories reflecting the eight virtues.
There are two more NPCs in the monastery. One, Torwin, is a young and upcoming Theurgist, proud and haughty of his magical skill and the speed at which he has passed the various tests. "No one here has the raw talent and ability I have. And I will suffer no one to surpass me." I suspect this is going to be a problem.
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| Torwin's boast about constructing focuses on the first try is a bit laughable given what we later learn about how focuses are constructed. |
The second is Stellos, the eldest and informal leader of the Theurgists, who call themselves the Order of Enlightenment. He is over 200 years old and has gone blind. "It is the price I pay for being able to serve Stratos so completely." He explains that theurgical spells require a "focus" that the theurgist must make himself. I say I want to learn air magic, and he says that I'll have to join the Order by passing the two tests that Xavier administers.
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| I feel like there has to be a catch. |
With my notes and screenshots in hand, I return to Xavier and tell him I'm ready for the Test of Wisdom. He gives me five questions. In short, they are:
- Will I welcome home a runaway child "after several years of debauchery and crime," or will I turn him away?
- My brother is accused of thievery, and I know that he's guilty. Do I testify against him?
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| One of Xavier's questions. |
- To heal a child, I'll have to make a sacrifice. Will I sacrifice my hearing, speech, sight, or life?
- My king has been fatally wounded in a battle. As he dies, he wants to know how the battle is going. We're losing badly. Do I tell him the truth or lie so that he dies happy?
- I'm in a tavern, and my comrades start boasting of their deeds. Do I join in and "tell of the glories of Stratos" or remain quiet?
I get them all right on the first try, mostly since these scenarios are all drawn directly from either the texts or NPC dialogue. The game could have made it a bit more challenging and meaningful by offering dilemmas that required knowledge of the virtues but with different fact patterns.
Next comes the Test of Centeredness. It takes place on the stone tower with the glyph that I found earlier. The Avatar stands in the center while the winds of Stratos push and pull him in various directions, trying to knock him off the tower. If he falls off the tallest side, or falls off any side while at less than half health, it's fatal. Meanwhile, he can walk or run in the direction opposite the one that the winds are trying to push him. The whole thing lasts about 30 seconds and takes me a couple of tries.
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| I did this once in El Paso and spent the next six hours trying to flush sand out of my eyes. |
Xavier is now done with me, and Stellos has the next test, which is to construct one or more focuses. They must be made with a special silver found only in the caverns beneath the monastery. The silver must then be taken to Korick on Tenebrae, who will create the focuses. Finally, the focuses must be brought back to the monastery and laid on the Altar of Focus. This will imbue them with Stratos's power.
The caverns are the usual annoying combination of monsters and fireballs randomly shooting out of nowhere. It takes me a while to identify the silver ore, as it just looks like any other background rock to me. I don't know how many I need, but I pick up as many as I see.
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| Silver, gray, and pink are identical colors to my eyes, alas. |
While there, I find a building with no apparent doorway, so I use the magic door scroll, and one appears. Inside the building, on an altar, is the sword Protector, as described in the book My Dearest Prevan. The monastery has two copies in case the player hasn't encountered it before now. The axe Slayer has served me well, but it takes a lot of hits before the thunderclap sounds and the enemy dies. When that happens, it's a great weapon, but I'm starting to resent all the hacking that I have to do before the d20 rolls a critical hit (or whatever is happening). In subsequent tests, Protector seems to kill enemies a bit faster, and more important, it increases my armor class by 5. I'll keep Slayer, of course, but I'm going to continue to test Protector for a while.
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| It seems like a waste of potential to just leave it here. |
With my backpack full of silver ore, I teleport back to Tenebrae and walk to Korick's workshop. He gives me eight options for focuses, one for each spell I read about. Of course, I want all of them, so I go through this dialogue tree eight times, until my backpack has eight silver talismans.
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| What does a "closed eye" talisman look like? A football? (Answer in screenshot below: Yes.) |
I then teleport back to Argentrock Isle, enter the monastery, and put the focuses on the altar one by one. Each one is imbued with magic, brightening the icon. Now, when I click on the focuses, I cast the related spell. Much nicer than having to mix reagents! (The Avatar's mana score puts a limit on how many spells he can cast at once, though.) The "Divination" spell is my favorite, since it tells me the official name of the area I'm in. I don't need to come up with new names for identical-looking caves.
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| Turning the dull talismans into proper focuses. |
I have to wrap up here, but I feel like I made some progress, and I liked the game more by the end of this session than at the beginning. Exploring Argentrock Isle felt like a classic Ultima experience, and the books and NPCs were more interesting. I'm still confused about a couple of things, though. First, how do the Theurgists get to Tenebrae and back? Does everyone have one of these Recall Items? Do they take boats? Do they go through the Catacombs every time? If the latter, do they all have Keys of the Scion? How do they cast "Open Ground" to get back?
Second, I wonder about the nature of Stratos. How is she the one good titan? I suppose Pyros might turn out to be good, too. That would have a nice symmetry: two good, two evil, one each male and female. But their association with elements confuses things; as building blocks of the world, it doesn't feel right that elements should be assigned "good" and "evil" roles. It feels like good and evil should be independent of the fundamental nature of reality. I had been assuming that they were all evil; perhaps Stratos is, and she's just done a good job fooling her followers. Anyway, no spoilers, please. I don't mind if the answer is "PAFO."
Oh, and was I supposed to do something with that Skull of Quakes? Cast it into some lava somewhere? I just noticed it in my backpack and realized I never figured out its purpose.
Time stamp: 38 hours
****
10/29/2026
Well, somebody might guiding you: Zealans, Hydros... who knows. :)
ReplyDeleteIt is curious how you stumbled into doing the right things., but this probably made it a better experience.
It certainly made for a fun read, as you are just exploring cluelessly, taking the optional difficult path through Lower Catacombs and Pit of Death and still somehow end up doing the right thing.
The Locked Doors are important and you'll figure it out eventually how to open them.
Argentrock Isle can be done as soon as you get the Key of the Scion. Nothing happens in the lava room before Hydros though. Lava is uncrossable and even if you "fly", you can not cross it.
The Skull is still somewhat useful and would have made your life easier before, because it unlocks a teleport pad. Where? Won't tell you. :)
If this is a 3 act game, then at the moment I'd place you mentally va gur zvqqyr bs guvf guveq npg.
I'll share my thoughts on Stratos later.
The Skull of Quakes can be used to reveal a teleport pad near where you got it, which would make travel to some places less tedious.
ReplyDelete> Ah, my old nemesis. We meet again.
ReplyDeleteAs it turns out, you already have all you need to open that door.
lbh ner fhccbfrq gb fhzzba n tbyrz va gung gval cngpu bs oebja rnegu lbh pna frr va gur bgure fvqr bs gur qbbe, naq znxr gur tbyrz bcra vg.
___
The Protector is, imo, the best weapon in Pagan - it has the same damage as an standard longsword, but the +5 armor is significant and you are better off killing enemies with spells.
___
The Hydros thing is the stupidest plot point in U8. The avatar not only commits an obviously evil act for mercenary reasons, he doesn't even get anything out of it. Making him both evil *and* a moron.
(As it turns out, you never learn tempestry - there is some indications that at some point you were supposed to visit an underwater city, but all content related to hydros got cut aside of this brief visit to Carthak lake.
"Making him both evil *and* a moron." Ha. Exactly. So what are the ramifications of just not doing it?
DeleteWell, there is a good enough in-game reason to release Hydros.
DeleteYou need to release her, for her river to cool down some of the lava in the lava river room, so it becomes crossable with the aid of spells. When you try to "fly" over it before releasing Hydros, there's no solid land on the other side.
Avatar sees a problem, Avatar finds a solution.
Think of it as emergency land development.
I guess, by default, Avatar would never be able to pass the first test of the Sorcerers.
This Avatar is just Rufus from Deponia series, it seems.
DeleteThe good news is that the Fire Mages are as interesting or more as the Theurgists.
ReplyDeleteThe bad news is that Fire Magic is not as easy to use as Air Magic.
"Not as easy" means raging at your computer because you have not placed a regent or candle on the exaxt pixel it seems to require to make the bloody spells!
DeleteI’ve read the comments of where people estimate you to be in this game but from the events you’ve written about, there doesn’t seem to be much of a defined plot progression. It reads like you’re just completing various unrelated tasks that you’ll have to trust will just build up to something later on.
ReplyDelete"... you’re just completing various unrelated tasks that you’ll have to trust will just build up to something later on."
DeleteThat describes some of the good Ultimas (III & VI, to the best of my recollection) as well.
As I recall, VI does give you clear guidance (e.g. find the other half of that template) but it's very easy and tempting to just go your own way instead.
DeleteBut sure, it's pretty common for older RPGs. It's basically the next step after RPGs where the only goal is to level up enough to take down the foozle.
The silver tablet, while the basis of some of U6's best gameplay... is kind of a waste of time as far as beating the game goes. It leads you to Sin'Vraal telling you you can get to the gargoyle world through Hythloth, but... you will just randomly stumble on the gargoyle world fussing around with the Orb anyway.
DeleteTrue, but if you stumble about randomly you'll likely miss out on Captain Johne's scroll (and Beh Lem, but I don't think he's actually important to the plot); whereas if you follow the guidance you will find this.
DeleteNowadays, the internet is full of lists of how the Orb of Cheating lets you bypass most of the game; but back in 1990 it would just teleport you to seemingly-arbitrary places that you didn't recognize, until you cast Kal Lor to get back to the game's guidance.
Remember that nothing in the game explains how exactly the orb works. Players nowadays come basically pre-spoiled with that tidbit, but players back in the 1990s were not. It's a fundamental difference between the pre-internet era and Gamefaqs.
So anyways. U6 does have guidance; whether you choose to follow it is up to you, as it IS one of the world's first sandbox games.
I loved the treasure hunt quest in VI. It took me months, also due my minimal knowledge of English, no guides or internet and lack of a world map due to having only a budget rerelease. I think VI strikes a good balance between giving the player some clear leads and objectives and some freedom on how to accomplish them.
DeleteAs much as I love VII, it is kind of hard to latch to the main quest trail at the beginning, but once you do, you are really following a linear path.
If this was a good, modern game then freeing Hydros before Mordea's death would change the event; it would also allow you to advise with the three deities regarding what *they* think you should be doing. You should also have been able to go to Mythran to ask questions, not the least - "what the hell is going on". But it is such an obvious glaring plot hole that I strongly doubt that any of it was implemented.
ReplyDeleteThis being said, if you want your game to be linear, you really have to make sure that doing things out of order is either impossible or should kinda make sense - otherwise you are better off with a scavenger hunt type of setup, like Veil of Darkness. I also wonder if such early access to Hydros is a bug, perhaps introduced during the patch that changed the platforming mechanic.
Finally, now I want to see how Times of Lore looked like and how it compared to Pagan.
I can't tell from your comment whether it's possible to free Hydros before exposing Mordea. I don't see anything that would physically block this from happening, but does the game have alternate dialogue if Mordea is still alive?
DeleteIt is possible to free Hydros as soon as you get the Key of the Scion. Mordea and Salkind have no comments to make on this.
DeleteThe Avatar can prompt some townsfolk with "Strange weather we've been having, huh? Anybody knows who did this? No? Well, it was me. I released Hydros."
But the responses are the same, the people talk about "the Tempest" having a hard time controlling the weather, cause some fool released Hydros and "cool story, bro".
The change in rulership plays out exactly the same.
@Joshua, so he's evil, moron, and a guy who can't keep his piehole shut when necessary.
Delete@Addict, my kids managed to break built-in antenna in my laptop, so I'm on a very unstable USB modem; therefore, my previous comment seemed to be lost.
DeleteEssentially, Joshua answered already. I can check, but I don't think I'll have time to do it. Some walkthroughs suggest that Hydros ignores Avatar if the latter did not kill that dead king spirit, so perhaps that's what happens instead.
I assume if you haven't dealt with Mordea yet, Hydros's dialogue threatens Mordea rather than Devon. If I had done this before ousting Mordea, I would have assumed that this was the way I was supposed to deal with her.
DeleteA stairway leads up to a chest. It is completely surrounded by a fence.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember anything vital being in there, but I spy with my little eye a lever on the front left corner of the structure.
This shouldn't be a spoiler, but your comment about the Oppression in Ultima V is a good point about that being a good game and this one...not so good. The Oppression was entirely optional, whereas freeing Hydros is required here by the plot.
Ah, damn it. I see it now. This game and levers . . .
DeleteIt was a bit of a spoiler, as I wasn't 100% sure that freeing Hydros was required by the plot. I just suspected it was because why else would they have set up a multi-stage process for doing so, complete with NPC reactions afterwards? The Oppression was the last time (perhaps only time) that Origin has invested that kind of time in leading the player in the wrong direction.
A big lol at your post title.
ReplyDeleteOne classic dungeon crawl in tabletop D&D is called The Temple Of Elemental Evil; so there is some precedent in having the fundamental building blocks of the world be evil somehow. It's not a very philosophical module though.
The elements as a whole in D&D have always been pretty solidly neutral, though there have been good and evil elementals. The Temple of Elemental Evil is kind of interesting in that according to the backstory of the module, yes, the cultists of Elemental Evil did believed the elements themselves to be chaotic and evil in nature... but they were deceived into this false belief by the demon lord Zuggtmoy for her own ends. (Zuggtmoy herself, imprisoned within the temple by a rival, was the climactic encounter of the module... potentially, though it was also possible for PCs to accidentally free her without even realizing they'd done so.)
DeleteD&D would later, in the first-edition Fiend Folio, introduce five "Elemental Princes of Evil" (five because in addition to the classical elements there was also a Prince of Evil Cold Creatures, despite cold not being one of the four elements (D&D would later establish a "paraelemental plane of ice", and Cryonax, the "Prince of Evil Cold Creatures", would be redubbed the Prince of Evil Ice Creatures and rehomed there). But their entries made it clear that they ruled only over evil elementals of their associated elements, and that there were still plenty of non-evil elementals... and in fact in second edition later books would also introduce corresponding Elemental Princes of Good, though TSR would never do much with them. Later takes on the Temple of Elemental Evil (including the fifth-edition adventure Princes of the Apocalypse, which was clearly inspired by and homaging Temple of Elemental Evil) would directly link the cult to the Princes of Elemental Evil, but that wasn't the case in the original module (the Princes of Elemental Evil not yet having been invented). There were, incidentally, also neutral "archomentals" that were the most powerful elementals of all, but honestly TSR never did all that much with them either.
One of the more interesting things TSR did with elemental alignments involved the Elementals of Law and Chaos that originated in Basic D&D. Alignments in Basic D&D comprised only lawful, neutral, and chaotic; there was no separate good and evil axis, and often lawful was more or less associated with good and chaotic with evil (though not always, and... it's complicated). So the original intent with the Elementals of Law and Chaos was that the Elementals of Law were benign, and the Elementals of Chaos were malign. When these monsters were converted to 2E in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium, however, the designers shook things up and declined to predictably make the Elementals of Law all good and the Elementals of Chaos all evil. The kryst and helion, the earth and fire elementals of law, were indeed lawful good, and the pyrophone, the fire elemental of chaos, was chaotic evil, but others varied; the undine, for example, the water elemental of chaos, was chaotic good. (The designers of the Mystara Monstrous Compendium did this with quite a few monsters, actually, giving them good or evil alignment components that didn't "match" their law or chaos component, and personally I think that was a good choice.)
Okay, wow... tried to post my comment and got a "comment is too long" message, which I've never gotten before but I guess was at some point inevitable given my tendency to ramble. I'll post the rest of what I'd written as a separate comment.
(Continued from previous comment:)
DeleteGoing back further, D&D's elemental planes were almost certainly inspired by those in Michael Moorcock's stories of Elric of Melniboné. (The concept of elementals goes back much farther, of course, at least to the Renaissance alchemist Paracelsus, but Moorcock was AFAIK the first one to give them their own planes... and Moorcock was certainly a major influence on D&D.) Moorcock's stories also had elemental lords for each element, and based on their behavior in the stories one might perhaps classify them as evil, although when they were actually statted up for D&D in the first few printings of the 1E Deities & Demigods they were all neutral except Kakatal the lord of fire, who was chaotic neutral.
None of which I suppose is directly relevant to Pagan, since I doubt any of this directly inspired Garriott or the game's other designers, but I guess I kind of like rambling about D&D. Although perhaps it's interesting to note that, just as Moorcock's stories may have been the first to posit the existence of "elemental planes", they were also AFAIK the first to define elemental lords, so perhaps Pagan was indirectly drawing on Moorcock even if its designers weren't aware of it.
I heard once that "elemental evil" means the destructive power of elements, as in earthquakes, forest fires, volcano eruptions, tsunami waves, floods, tornadoes... since they are murderous, they take a LOT of lives and are horrifying to even watch on YouTube, how much more to live through one... so, "evil" in the sense of "bad, destructive, killing force"
DeleteCould you transcribe that with a little more detail?
Delete@Lorigulf I haven't heard the phrase "elemental evil" used in any context other than D&D's Temple of Elemental Evil, and in that case the module is explicit about its meaning (again, that the cultists of Elemental Evil have been deceived by Zuggtmoy into believing that the elements are inherently evil). What other contexts have you seen it used in?
Delete@BESTIEunimt "transcribe"? My comments weren't "transcribed" from anything. Sorry if I did go on a little long, though.
@Jalen, "elemental planes" complete with elementals are borrowed wholesale from late Theosophists.
Delete@Jalen, "elemental evil" as an expression considerably predates both the elemental planes and Moorcock; it used to mean evil impulses that are ever-present in a soul of men, perhaps coming from the Original Sin in Christianity.
DeleteNevermind, Jalen, just a dumb joke on my part...
Delete@RandomGamer I stand corrected on "elemental evil"; while a web search for "elemental evil" seems to bring up exclusively references to D&D (well, and one heavy metal LP that postdates and is certainly named after the D&D module), a Google Books search is more fruitful, bringing up references to "elemental evil" (meaning evil as some fundamental, primordial force) in the works of Emmanuel Levinas and Martin Heidegger and in a religious novel by Compton Mackenzie. I wonder whether Gygax was aware of that usage of the term or whether he just hit upon it independently. (Gygax was reasonably well-read, but AFAIK more in terms of speculative fiction and parapsychology than in terms of philosophy and religion.)
DeleteWith regard to elemental planes in Theosophy, however... do you have a source for that? Theosophy almost certainly had an influence on D&D—that's very likely where Gygax got the Astral and Ethereal Planes—but I'm unaware of Theosophy having had any concept of elemental planes. Elementals, yes—as I said, those go back at least to Paracelsus—, but all the sources I looked at seem to suggest that Theosophists associated elementals with the Astral or other terrestrial planes, and didn't assign them separate elemental planes of their own segregated by element like Moorcock and D&D did. (See for example here and here.) There are references to "elemental kingdoms", but these seem to be meant in the same sense as "animal kingdom" and "plant kingdom", as classifications of entities, not as physical (or extradimensional) places. However, I'm not hugely knowledgeable about Theosophy, and it's certainly possible that some late branches did posit the existence of elemental planes, but if so I'd like to find out more about that.
@Jalen Wanderer
Delete> based on their behavior in the stories one might perhaps classify them as evil
Straasha (Water) seems helpful while Grome (Earth) seems to be a moron... except that the former only settles an ancient debt, and the latter only resumes a very old dispute with the former. The protagonist just happens to be "there" and they don't care about him - nor would they probably care about any other mortal in his place - hence the "neutral" alignment.
Kakatal (Fire) is chaotic because 1) he his a patron to the Dragons, animals of Chaos 2) his element is also represented by Checkalakh, Fire Lord of Chaos; who has no equivalent in Law.
Ah, should have done a Google Books search for "elemental planes" as well... found some interesting results. Still no evidence that elemental planes were ever much of a thing in Theosophy; there are a few Theosophy-adjacent books that use the phrase "elemental planes", but not in a sense much like that in Moorcock and D&D. But I did find references to elemental planes and elemental lords not too dissimilar to the Moorcock/D&D versions in books of a different, older esoteric tradition... The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
DeleteInteresting. I'm still inclined to suspect that D&D lifted the elemental planes from Moorcock—again, Moorcock was definitely a big influence on D&D, and is repeatedly name-dropped in the early editions—but I wonder whether Moorcock was aware of the Golden Dawn. I think the concept of "elemental planes" is a simple enough one he might have come up with it independently, and the similarities aren't so blatant to prove he took inspiration from the Golden Dawn, but it's possible... I'm not sure how conversant Moorcock was with those kinds of esoteric traditions.
(Sorry for the digressions here; I am honestly interested in where some of these ideas ultimately came from, even if it's not that closely related to Pagan. Though of course the fact that one usage of these ideas predates another doesn't necessarily mean it inspired it; some of these concepts could have arisen independently on separate occasions.)
DeleteWhoops... I erred in calling the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn "older" than Theosophy. The two were roughly contemporary, and in fact Theosophy was founded slightly earlier, but Theosophy was founded in America and the Golden Dawn in England. Which may support Moorcock being possibly inspired by the Golden Dawn, since he of course was British, but I still don't think it's impossible he came up with the idea of elemental planes independently.
Delete@Tarnyko Well, Straasha is helpful to the Melnibonéans, who aren't exactly paragons of benevolence themselves. Still, fair enough; I was trying to say they could possibly be construed as an example of elementals being evil, but I agree it's a stretch, and the neutral alignment does make more sense.
DeleteI thought I know the name "Yevaud" from somewhere and guess what: it seems someone in U8 team must have liked Le Guin's "Earthsea".
ReplyDeleteAlso:
"I suppose Pyros might turn out to be good, too".
Well..
I recall an article from the German PC Player, a diary of one of the game's German translators covering the game design process, including programmer rites (the 2000th eliminated bug was celebrated with a smoking break). Notably, he remarks that when he returned to Origin after a break, he runs into all kind of traps, exploding mushrooms etc. that had not been in the game previously. I wonder whether at some point during development, someone said "let's spice it up, like in Super Mario" or whether it was all planned from the beginning and just implemented as another layer once the general groundwork was done.
ReplyDeleteThe game's director Mike McShaffry said in an interview that Garriott was very taken by Prince of Persia around the time that U7 was wrapping up and deliberately pushed U8 in that direction. Maybe the action elements were given more emphasis as development went on, but it sounds like the intent was always to make U8 more of an action RPG. I might be misremembering this, but I also recall an interview where someone said the typical process for the later Ultima games was to have part of the team design the game world and then have others fill it out with items, traps, NPCs, etc., instead of doing it all at once.
DeleteNote in particular that jumping upwards to climb a ledge is a move straight from Prince of Persia (and, off the top of my head, not very common in other 1990s games other than Pagan).
Delete@Jean-Luc, it is a very well known story; however, Prince of Persia is not exactly known for corridors packed with traps and explosive mushrooms. In fact, I can't think of a single RPG that took quite this design approach to its levels as Origin did to catacombs in U8.
DeleteNo exploding mushrooms in PoP, but there are plenty of traps, albeit of a limited variety (collapsing floors, spikes, sawblades, and guillotine slicers, as I recall)—traps are pretty central to PoP and were part of its design years before actual enemies were added. That said, I think it's plausible that U8's dungeon design took some cues from the likes of Zelda and maybe even The Immortal (which also had killer mushrooms, albeit with very different behavior), though these typically de-emphasized platforming or excluded it entirely. But how much of all this was part of the original conception I don't really know, since AFAIK the only U8 design documents in the wild are for the Lost Vale expansion. It'd be very interesting to see in detail how U8 itself took shape.
DeleteI recall an article from the German PC Player, a diary of one of the game's German translators covering the game design process, including programmer rites (the 2000th eliminated bug was celebrated with a smoking break). Notably, he remarks that when he returned to Origin after a break, he runs into all kind of traps, exploding mushrooms etc. that had not been in the game previously. I wonder whether at some point during development, someone said "let's spice it up, like in Super Mario" or whether it was all planned from the beginning and just implemented as another layer once the general groundwork was done.
ReplyDeleteThe "foggy" graphics is caused by releasing Hydros, I never liked it. IIRC you can complete the theurgists w/o releasing Hydros. Freeing her is needed to reach the sorcerers. That means you could have delayed the graphics effect for some more time but not avoided it.
ReplyDeleteAddition to my previous comment: you can reach even reach the sorcerers w/o freeing Hydros as there is an exploit for crossing lava:
ReplyDeleteLbh pna qebc bowrpgf yvxr oynaxrgf naq orqebyyf ba "fbyvq" ynin naq gura jnyx bire gubfr bowrpgf.
Huh. Never would've thought of that solution. I wonder how much of the plot is bypassable this way.
DeleteQuite a lot, considering the game can be speedran in about one hour (and that is _without_ out-of-bounds glitches).
DeleteSo if I really try hard, I could probably wrap it up in 30 minutes? That might be worth attempting.
DeleteIf they have generic theurgist NPCs, I wonder what stopped them from having generic citizen NPCs to fill out Tenebrae a little bit.
ReplyDeleteBut they do have tons of generic Tenebrae NPC's. Like tons of soldiers harassing tons of tax nonpayers.
DeleteI did some fooling around and turns out that you don't even need the syl fcryy sebz gur gurhetvfgf gb pebff gur ynin nsgre Ulqebf.
ReplyDeleteIn the screenshot, I can see that you already are on the prageny cyngsbez naq gur Fbepreref jrer nyernql ernpunoyr. Vg jnf bayl sbe ernpuvat guvf cyngsbez gung lbh arrqrq gur "Nve Jnyx" fcryy, but... you whzcrq vg.
I guess this could be an oversight introduced by the jump patch.
I'm not on the central platform. I'm way on the eastern shore. The guy is just yelling at me from the central platform.
DeleteOh.
DeleteWell... lbh pna fgvyy whzc gurer.
Gurer'f n pbeare jurer vg'f cbffvoyr gb whzc bagb gur prageny cyngsbez.
I was initially confused by the mandrils, thought of these big colourful monkeys. Then I realised in English those are spelled with two 'l' at the end (as opposed to e.g. Spanish) and that you had mentioned them once before as giant bee-like creatures. Still a bit strange as a name for them to me, given the closeness.
ReplyDeleteContinuing my previous theory.
ReplyDeleteIf the Titans are in essence the same thing as the Zealan gods, a manifestation of the people's psychic energy that turned into an entity, and we consider the particular circumstance of their birth: what would a deeply traumatised people project out...
So someone would embody the rage, the hurt, the desire to punish, but someone would also become to embody the people's desire for comfort, safety, mercy, the wish that there would be someone benevolent and powerful out there.
And that wish would become Stratos.
Hydros could be something like the embodiment of resentment, grief, bitterness.
Lithos... I don't know... order, submission, need for permanence?