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| Just a normal day on Daemon's Crag. |
The session begins with the Avatar standing on Daemon's Crag, a peninsula surrounded on all sides by the lava spewed by Mount Morgaelin. As usual, I begin exploring by rounding the circumference, but the only things I find are a welcome teleportation pad and a stone bridge leading to a large, locked double-door.
I then turn exploration inward to the small road network leading through a group of buildings. The first house I come to is labeled "ACOLYTE BANE." I am surprised to find it occupied by a woman. She intuits that I'm a stranger to this island and asks my name, calling me "friend" in the process. Among the responses is an amusing one: "You are not my friend, lady." But as is this game's wont, choosing it, or any other option, just leads to the same result: Bane says that I need a name in the Elder Tongue and decides to call me "Daemion." Now I want to know what happens if you create a character named Daemion.
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| That does not look like a stable bridge. |
The dialogue with Bane is long, but here are the highlights:
- Corodin was the first leader of the sorcerers, but he wasn't very good. He was overthrown by his acolyte, Maedron. This set a precedent for the Calling, a time of wizard's duel that allows masters to be overthrown. I'm sure that, somewhere, Anton Chekhov is smiling down at this dialogue. Later, Maedron created the Elder Tongue.
- The Elder Tongue allows sorcerers to bind fire to objects like wands and rods.
- The sorcerers are led by a Master named Malchir. All other sorcerers are acolytes or disciples. Malchir is a "wily one" who prefers to keep to himself, making him disliked by some of his acolytes.
- Fire is the domain of the Lord of Flame, Pyros. Bane thinks he is the most powerful of the titans. He is bound to the sorcerers, which limits his power somewhat. If the titans were not bound in this way, they would be gods.
- All sorcerers have a Truename that differs from the name they use in conversation. Knowing a being's Truename allows a sorcerer to bind it to service. Something called the Tongue of Fire allows sorcerers to control Pyros.
- Daemons are the souls of people who have been killed by flame. They are mindless and filled with destructive rage, but they can be bound.
- Daemon's Crag was so named because the first demon appeared here, that of a young woman whose father threw her into the lava to save her from a bloodthirsty mob. She roared out of the lava as a daemon and scared the attackers away.
- Morgaelin means "Dark Jewel" in the Elder Tongue.
- Vardion is the First Acolyte. He is "more beast than man . . . a brutish, overbearing, pompous lout."
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| Bane holds nothing back. |
- The other acolytes are Gorgrand ("slow of wit") and Beren ("a man to be trusted").
- Bane thinks Vardion is preparing to overthrow Malchir and return the sorcerers to their traditional levels of power, which Bane thinks will lead to them being shunned by the rest of the island.
By the end of the conversation, Bane has decided to trust me. She asks me to gain Vardion's confidence and learn his Truename, which will allow Bane to spy on him and learn his true intentions. I say that I'll think on it, and I leave.
Continuing on, I next come to the house occupied by First Acolyte Vardion. Again, I have options to be rude to him, which I take just for fun, and it leads to Vardion attacking me. He surrounds me in a ring of fire, then teleports outside of it and starts hurling spells at me. I can't escape the ring. But when the ring dies, I charge up to him and kill him. I figure that's probably irrecoverable and I need to reload, but the game removes any dilemma by crashing with the error: "Halting in file YAMM.C, line 131."
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| I push Vardion too far. |
On a reload, I try again. Vardion is a bit difficult. He demands to know why I'm here and tells me that he's in charge. He otherwise mostly repeats what Bane told me, only more obnoxiously. When he asks how I can be so ignorant of the elements, I say frankly that I'm from another world. Not only does he believe me, but he also says that his own grandmother spoke of other worlds and may have in fact vanished to one. You'll recall that Vardion's grandmother, Mordra, is in the Chronicle of Pagan as the source of information about Britannia. She appears in Ultima VII as the healer in Skara Brae. I assumed she traveled there and back home again, but from Vardion's account she must have learned about Britannia (and told people about it) while she was still on Pagan, then somehow traveled there at the end of her life.
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| The Avatar practices for Ultima IX. |
Although he briefly seemed to like me, Vardion returns to being a jerk in further conversation. One new bit of information he imparts is that the people of Tenebrae pay the sorcerers in food, clothing, and other sundries so that the sorcerers keep Pyros from destroying Tenebrae in a flood of ash and lava. When I accuse him of "extorting" the people of Tenebrae, he orders me from his house.
Moving on, I meet:
- Daemos, Cardas, Tallon, Mentar, and Kothius, all disciples. They have the exact same dialogue, which mostly confirms what I already know. They live in single rooms and mutter to themselves when I'm not talking to them.
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| A disciple talks to himself. |
- The Hall of Sorcery is a large building with some wooden tables and a pentagram on the floor. A library in the rear is locked.
- A road ends at another pentagram, this one with gouts of flame at every point.
- Acolyte Gorgrond is pacing around his house. As Bane warned, he's a little thick. He takes easy offense to my questions. He worships Vardion and says he "has plans" for Bane. He says he's been here since he was a babe, and there's a hint that he might be Malchir's son.
- Acolyte Beren is also in his house. He relates the story of the Guardian, the Destroyer, and the creation of the elemental titans as told in the Chronicle of Pagan. If the player has not already figured out from the story that the Guardian and the Destroyer were the same being, the Avatar has. When I say this to Beren, he refuses to believe it or hear any more about it.
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| I love to think that half the players at this point were saying, "Wait . . . what?!" |
- Also, he's clearly in love with Bane. When I tell him I'm trying to find my way home, he insists that Bane can help.
- All of the sorcerer's houses have pentagrams in the middle of their floors, some with flames in the center, some dormant.
- None of them have any dialogue options about stopping Hydros. But I'm not able to find Malchir. Maybe he's in the library or behind those other locked doors.
And that's it. Lacking anything else to do, I return to Bane and agree to help. She says that I will become her disciple. She decides that "Daemion" is my Truename, and she gives her own as Sabriane. (I think I've told you before that "Sabrina" is just about my favorite woman's name, and that's a cute variant.) She gives me my first task: "Enter into the confidences of our illustrious First Acolyte and get from him his Truename."
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| So does "Sabraelin" mean "Well of Jewels?" |
It takes me a few tries to do this. Vardion doesn't respond well to rudeness, but he doesn't want a toady, either. Finally, when I reverse my earlier comment and tell him that his arrangement with Tenebrae is "shrewd," he suggests that I become his disciple. He also designates my Truename as Daemion and says that his own is Morduin. His first task for me is to get Bane's Truename. He warns me not to trust her friendly demeanor: "It is a ruse. She is power hungry and ambitious." He thinks that she plans to kill both him and Malchir.
You know what would really help sort this out? Some spell that makes people speak the truth. Naturally, it does nothing. I suppose this could be one of those situations in which the rude person turns out to be good and the nice person turns out to be evil (for some reason, I immediately think of the first episode of Scrubs), but in my experience, nice people are usually actually nice while rude jerks are usually actually jerks, so I go with my instinct. (I'm sure the lady's name has nothing to do with it.) I return to Bane/Sabriane and give her Vardion/Morduin's name.
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| The game has some fun dialogue if you say that Vardion's Truename is "Sabriane." |
Bane summons a daemon and orders it to go kill Vardion. It teleports away. Thuds and cries of pain ring in the distance. "I do so enjoy the cries of torment," the Guardian gloats. Whoops.
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| Yes, that was a daemon. |
Malchir now apparates into Bane's pentagram and demands an explanation. "Vardion was planning to assassinate you," Bane reports to him. Malchir reams her for acting on "baseless suspicion" instead of consulting with him. "You have destroyed a valuable Acolyte." Bane asks to replace him as First Acolyte and says that she has a promising young disciple (me) who can replace her. Malchir agrees that I have great potential. "Teach him our ways," he commands, and disappears.
Bane's method of "teaching" me is to give me a key to the library. She tells me to return when I'm ready for the test. (I'll have to try that with my students.) I have the option to rail at her for lying to me, but she just stubbornly defends her actions with a "dog-eat-dog world" philosophy.
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| "It's all part of life's rich pattern, Brenda, and you'd better @*$%*# get used to it." |
I briefly reload and see what happens if I give Bane's Truename to Vardion. He does the same thing she did, gets the same lecture from Malchir, and gives me the same key. He says the same thing Bane says in response to my accusation of "You lied to me!"
The library has a lot of books. The Art of Flame by Maedron and On Sorcerous Ways by Corodin explain the basics of sorcery. If I understand it correctly, it involves the following steps:
- Assemble black or red candles around a pentagram. Different spells require different combinations of candles placed at different points.
- Put various reagents near the candles; the specific reagents depend on the spell.
- Put a focus in the center of the pentagram. Focuses are metal disks, wands, rods, staves, and daemon skulls, all made of Blackrock. Different focuses hold different spells and different numbers of charges.
- Light the candles.
- Chant a mantra specific to the spell.
At this point, the sorcerer can use the focus as a magic item with a limited number of charges. In all my CRPG playing, it's possible that I've never encountered a more exhausting magic system. And the last thing I need is more items in my inventory. Is there any way I can win without it?
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| This is the last thing I need right now. |
Other books in the library teach me the words, candles, candle positions, and reagents for "Extinguish," "Flame Bolt," "Flash," "Explosion," "Summon Daemon," "Banish Daemon," "Armor of Flames," "Endure Heat," "Ignite," and "Fire Shield." There are reagents everywhere: volcanic ash, brimstone, daemon bones, pumice, obsidian, and pig iron.
I can't really carry all this stuff, so I put my money bag and necromancy reagent bag in a chest in the library and hope they're still there when I get back. I put a handful of each reagent into the bag I normally use for mixing earth reagents, take five of each candle, grab a wand and rod from the shelves (I don't see a staff or disk), and head back to Bane.
Bane helps clarify the names of the points of the pentagram, which I spend an absurd amount of time trying to draw in PowerPoint before I realize I can just copy an image off the Internet. Anyway, here are the points:
There are some real-world influences on these names, but they're mostly nonsense. I mean, aphelion means the furthest point from the sun, but in the game, it's the farthest point from the volcano. Mesostel would seem to mean something like "middle of the pillars." Perivolcan would mean "around the volcano," not just closest to it. Pa and ze are being used as "right" and "left" here, or maybe "east" and "west" and have no real-world origins that I can tell.
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| Instructions for "Flame Bolt." |
Bane wants me to enchant an object, or multiple objects with "Flash," "Flame Bolt," and "Endure Heat." Just "Flash" alone requires me to:
- Put red candles at aphelion, perivolcan pa, perivolcan zee.
- Put black candles at the other two.
- Put pumice at aphelion and volcanic ash at mesostel pa and mesostel ze.
- Light the candles.
- Chant FLAM POR.
I run into a few vexing problems. First, the game intermittently won't let me drag away candles that are already on the pentagram. It won't let me drag them at all at first, so I assume they must be fixed in location and I'm doing something wrong. I'm in the middle of trying to look up a solution when it suddenly works.
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| The game's most persistently obnoxious problem. |
Second, it's not clear to me at first from the spellbooks that they only give the locations of red candles. You have to assume that black candles go everywhere else. Third, it's not entirely clear to me whether the reagents go outside or inside nor where the Avatar has to stand. Finally, how do you proactively say words in this game? It turns out that you do it by double-clicking the pentagram itself. All of this takes a lot of bumbling around. At least candles never seem to burn out.
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| The Avatar sets things up for the "Flash" spell. |
The result is a Wand of Flash, which is now all sparkly glowy. I had the impression that you could put multiple spells in one object, but I don't know how that works if the game insists on naming the object after the first spell. Anyway, I don't really try. Instead, I put a rod down for "Flame Bolt" and use a rod I found in Bane's house for "Endure Heat."
After I make "Flame Bolt," the game will not let me pick up the rod no matter what I do, so I have to reload and start the entire thing over again.
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| Again. |
When I started playing the game, some commenters praised the originality of the magic system in superlative terms. I assume they must be talking about this. I really do appreciate the wondrous variety of the human species, but sometimes it's hard for me to believe that we evolved from the same monkeys.
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| I'm not sure your eyes are what matters. |
When I'm done with the three spells, Bane tells me to visit Malchir in the Obsidian Fortress. I assume that's the place across the bridges with the locked doors. I optimistically head over there without restocking my reagents, hoping that the game won't require me to make any more sorcerer spells. It's not that crazy; I only had to cast about three necromancy spells to finish that little questline.
The double doors open automatically as I approach and lead me into a small cave, where Malchir stands with daemons on both sides. "You will remain within this fortress until you have found my inner sanctum or you are dead," he says. He then casts a spell that turns the daemon statues into daemons, wishes me good luck, and teleports away.
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| I tried to avoid taking screenshots when the "mist" effect was active, but sometimes it couldn't be helped. |
I deal with the daemons with Protector, pausing halfway through the battle to cast VAS MANI on myself (now that's a spell system; just double-click on a rune). I'm helped by the fact that the daemons start attacking each other halfway through the battle. I was probably supposed to cast "Banish Daemon."
The next room has another daemon, but he's non-hostile and says hello. When I speak to him, he congratulates me on my wisdom in not attacking and says I'm free to loot the place for spell reagents. When I ask him his name, he says it's Arcadion, which is a significant surprise. I'm glad no one spoiled it for me.
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| Arcadion asks where I'm from. Even if I'm trying to tell the truth, I don't know which of these to say. |
Arcadion, you might recall, is the daemon that the Avatar bound to the Black Sword in the Forge of Virtue expansion to Ultima VII: The Black Gate (after freeing it from a mirror in which it had been imprisoned by the mage Erethian). The Avatar continued carrying the sword in Ultima VII, Part 2: Serpent Isle, losing it for a while, then reclaiming it, then having to free Arcadion to defeat the mad mage Lorthondo. The daemon fled after this encounter, never to be seen again in that game.
Here, I have options to remind him of these events, but he claims we've never met and he's never been bound to anyone, let alone someone named Erethian. By way of explanation, he suggests that the past I'm describing is still in his future: "Time does strange things to those who travel the worlds." That's all cute, but this daemon neither looks nor sounds anything like Arcadion. This is a classic Origin retcon: it initially intrigues you, but when you think about it, it doesn't really fit and is kind of dumb. See also: Mordra, daemons are really gargoyles (clearly not), the serpent that guarded Exodus's fortress was the Great Earth Serpent, the Avatar was the hero of the first three games, Shamino's whole deal. I'm sure there won't be anything like this in Ultima IX.
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| It never makes sense in sci-fi and fantasy when anyone accepts "Earth" as a proper name. |
A platform in the center of the room has a pentagram and tables and chests with plenty of reagents, candles, and focuses. I go to save the game here and accidentally hit "Read Diary" instead of "Write Diary," and instead of saving over Game #2 reload from Bane's house after completing the second spell. I check the word count and decide I can stop here.
There is a degree to which this is Ultima—exploring a new place, talking to a bunch of people, getting a lot of lore, running around doing errands. That's been the series' modus operandi since about Ultima IV, and when it works well, it's a strength. But at least earlier Ultimas coupled this type of exploration and info-dumping with some attempts at classic RPG character development, leveling, and inventory and wealth acquisition. These elements hit their peak in Ultima V and have been slowly degraded ever since, arriving here at a character who starts with no creation options except a name, hits peak attributes within a couple of hours, almost never has to buy anything, has no karma meter, and only fights when he feels like it.
Still, the story parts of the game aren't as bad as I'm making them out to be, and I think the problem is that the interface just spoils my mood for the entire game. I am so sick of holding down the right mouse button, of getting caught on dumb obstacles, of mincing along when I'm trying to run, of dashing heedless into lava when I'm trying to move carefully, of trying to double-click on NPCs who are moving, of not being able to pick up or move items for no reason, of tossing items into the blue yonder when I'm just trying to move them a few feet, of ESC bringing up the options menu instead of dismissing the active window, of NPCs kicking me out of dialogue because I'm taking notes for my blog, of jumping and missing, and, yes, of clicking on "Read" when I mean "Write" and vice versa. So no, I don't want to mess around with candles. For hours, I've been tempted to just watch Kikoskia play the rest of this damned thing and tell you I accidentally deleted the screenshots. I guess now that I said that, I can't actually do it.
Time stamp: 45 hours
****
Next entry in this series
11/05/2026
I didn't try Forge of Virtue until after this game, so the bit with Arcadion was even more pointless.
ReplyDeleteHave to wonder what YAMM.C stands for -- Yet Another Messy Murder?
If both sorcerers give the same truename, why can't anyone just take a good look at someone and know it?
Regarding the Obsidian Fortress: lbh qba'g arrq gb zvk zbfg bs gur fcryyf, nf lbh pna svaq fbzr naq eha cnfg n srj gevnyf.
My bet is on Yet Another Memory Manager. And yes, names starting in "Yet Another" are a long-standing programmer in-joke.
DeleteRegarding Arcadion, if planar traveling allows for time travel and/or Pagan is somehow in the past compared to the main Ultima timeline, you could pull a brilliant plot twist out of that in terms of stopping The Guardian in the past. This is fitting for the series since Ultima I already involves traveling to the past to stop Mondain. Unfortunately, none of what I just suggested happens in this game.
Pump up the YAMM, pump it up.
DeleteHah! Username certainly checks out.
DeleteHad a look at u8.exe to see if anything relating to YAMM was there. Turns out the debugging symbols are intact, at least in the version I have.
DeleteYou can find special... darn... blue symbols which can hold any sorcery and have unlimited charges of chosen spell unlike common foci.
ReplyDeleteThey also doubles as quest items/rewards for the Obsidian Fortress tests, I think.
What I dislike about the lore in this part is that Ultima already _has_ an Elder Tongue: the "vas ort flam" language of magic used pretty consistently since Ultima 5 _and_ still used for the spells in U8. And yeah, this contradicts all the earlier Ultima lore about daemons; that really wasn't necessary.
ReplyDeleteGiven how powerful truenames are, I find it silly that Bane gives you hers after knowing you for like ten minutes, and that she can just _decide_ for you what your truename is. And that the Avatar's "truename" is a nickname that's pretty much identical to "daemon". I suppose the Avatar in this game is meant to be mindless and filled with destructive rage.
Frankly, both "Daemion" and "Bane" sound like the oh-so-edgy nicknames that a goth teenager would call himself.
This is why I don't buy "didn't have enough time" and "left on the cutting room floor" excuses for this game: clearly, the dialogues that were finished sucked not because whomever wrote them ran out of time to go in depth, but because whomever wrote them sucked at his job.
DeleteAnd, frankly, I keep pronouncing phrases with "friend" in my head in an obnoxious shawarma salesman voice.
Still better than Escape from Mt. Drash.
ReplyDelete"When I started playing the game, some commenters praised the originality of the magic system in superlative terms. I assume they must be talking about this. I really do appreciate the wondrous variety of the human species, but sometimes it's hard for me to believe that we evolved from the same monkeys."
ReplyDeleteSick burn.
I really liked Sorcery and so I rest my case. Sure, you had to be pixel perfect, but it felt like real magic or rather real magic item creation. Provided you didn't use a stupid one-charge focus, you would only have to do it once for each spell.
I also loved the magic lore, with 4 different magics using 4 different mechanisms/logics - no other game do that that I know. Everywhere else, it's either magic points or Vancian - with only a few exceptions.
I would have gladly spoiled Arcadion if I had remembered it was Arcadion, but as you say he fits just as much in the story as marmalade in a croissant.
Indeed, back then a magic item enchanting system with that level of mechanical/aesthetic integration was absolutely visionary and still rare now. Shame about the rotten interface, although I certainly had more tolerance for it at the time.
DeleteI didn't mean it as a "burn." It's just one of those many matters of aesthetics where it's hard to understand other people's points of view.
DeleteDon't worry, I understood it as such. I just like the way you wrote, and I plan to use a weaponized version of it in other places.
DeleteTyranny tried something similar recently, but also somewhat botched the execution of an intriguing concept.
DeleteWhat makes U8 sorcery particularly immersive fun (and at the same time, frustrating chore) is that you make spells by performing actions in the world, not in a separate interface. The only other RPG I can think of that tried something similarly immersive (and equally frustrating) was Arx Fatalis, where you cast spells by drawing runes on the screen with the mouse cursor.
DeleteI also always liked U8 magic system, but it is something that it objectively really works best in concept than in practice.
DeleteEven with a better interface, it would be still be tedious to arrange candles and reagents for a single item.
There is a reason why characters do not need to use bathrooms in RPGs.
It just struck me that (this part of) Ultima 8 is likely inspired by King's Quest III, an adventure game also largely known for its obnoxious magic system (that requires you to manually type out several lines of alchemical instructions for each spell you cast, apparently as copy protection). I can see how some players or writers may see this as atmospheric.
ReplyDeleteIt does sound atmospheric and like kind of a cool idea, while also being pretty excruciatingly unfun to actually play with, especially after the first spell or two. Based on the rest of the review, that seems to be a recurring issue.
DeleteI mean, earlier Ultimas (4?) required the player to manually mix the reagents in advance and then cast the spell. Origin is no stranger to elaborate magic systems.
Delete>The Avatar practices for Ultima IX.
ReplyDeleteSo you already know...
Really laughed hard at your comment about the magic system. The thing is in the abysmal experience I had with the whole game it was the only thing which I remembered as a bit of fun. Like a piece of shiny metal poking out of a steaming pile.
Sure, the whole "what's a paladin" thing, plus the true nature of the Guardian, was spoiled a lot time ago.
Delete"These elements hit their peak in Ultima V and have been slowly degraded ever since"
ReplyDeleteYour U5 bias is showing, again :D
No, he’s objectively correct about that. “U5 is best Ultima” is opinion. “U5 is the ultimate where combat, advancement and logistics peaked in complexity” is fact. 6 in theory uses the same mechanics but in practice the removal of full caster allies and the ability to just walk past all the combats makes it play completely differently.
DeleteUltima V has always been my favorite too. I think it's because the combat is the best of the series combined with being able to move on the overhead map at a quick/reasonable rate.
DeleteHowever, the games have always had a certain amount of adventure game aspects to them. At this point in the series, U8 feels like those aspects have overpowered the RPG elements of the game. So, instead of U8 being a bad Ultima game, think of it as a bad Quest for Glory.
VII is my favorite RPG ever and I didn't get to play V until much later, but I agree with James, in general.
DeleteV and VI strike probably the best balance between story/exploration/combat/character improvement in the series, and it's not a coincidence they are on top of the GIMLET ratings, as it tends to reward games that score well in most aspects and not those that do exceptionally well in a few categories but badly in others.
That strength is only in comparison to other Ultima titles, though. Other contemporary RPG series had much better character development. So I wonder if they really lost that much by deemphasising it.
DeleteIt's me, I'm the kind of person who enjoys Ultima 8's magic system. While I do agree that it's finicky and I certainly fought the interface around the pentagrams too, but for me at least, the novelty of having different schools of magic that work quite differently won out. It makes me feel more like I'm playing a mage, learning the magical secrets of a fantasy world, compared to how in many games, even the supposedly very different arcane and divine spells work exactly the same.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, I agree about how Ultima was always good about exploring a world and getting to know it and its inhabitants, but the RPG elements suffered a lot since U5. As RPGs, I honestly think only U3-4-5 are really good, while the others are good games, but not good RPGs (minus U2 and U9, those are not good games either).
> Perivolcan would mean "around the volcano," not just closest to it.
ReplyDeleteNo, Peri- correctly means closest to something, compare periapsis to mean the closet point in an orbit
Aphelion should absolutely be called Apvolcan though, that's just clumsy. Or if using the sun as a metaphoric name for the volcano, the other points should follow and be called Perihelion as well.
You'd think the game designers could afford a Greek dictionary!
DeleteAnd a little thing that just bugs me: if a spell is the same as in an earlier Ultima, then it should use the same incantation (i.e. Por Flam, not In Ort Flam).
Volcano is Latin anyway!
DeleteWe are both correct. It means both "surrounding" (perimeter, pericardium) and "near" (perihelion).
DeleteYes, but since the Greeks didn’t really have a proper word for “volcano” (Thera being dormant by the time of the classical age), that choice can be forgiven.
DeleteCould it be pericadus?
DeleteI remember this part of the game giving me a personal little satanic panick attack, I was very afraid of voluntarily dealing with satanism, pentagrams, black candles and demons, so I just stopped there refusing to participate further lol
ReplyDeleteDid you buy the version of the game where they removed the pentagram on the box?
DeleteI succeded to convince myself that maaaaaybe pentagram does not mean something as satanic as it seems, maaaaaybe it's a Pythagorean symbol of good forces or something.
DeleteBut when my avatar had to summon real demons , there was no wiggle room lol
I was at this age also afraid of Doom and Quake because of satanic imagery lol
Nowadays I have some satanist friends and they are not scary and do not actually worship the chirstian satan at all...
"a young woman whose father threw her into the lava to save her from a bloodthirsty mob"
ReplyDeleteSubject to further potentially illuminating details, that sounds like a somewhat flawed rescue strategy to me. Unless he already knew about the whole daemon thing and somehow saw turning his daughter into a mindless being filled with destructive rage as "saving" her.
She was about to be raped to death, so the father decided to mercy kill her daughter instead.
DeleteYeah, I didn't explain that very well. Think "save" as "save her virtue."
DeleteI kind of suspected that, but to me it didn't really align with the "bloodthirsty mob". And you wonder if there aren't 'better' ways to mercy kill her than throwing her into lava (plus this triggering the whole daemon thing for her).
DeleteWas the fathers name Heihachi Mishima?
DeleteYour comment on the Ultimaness of this specific part of the game made me briefly wish you could have a party in it, but it took a few seconds to realize how much of a stone around your neck they'd become: Either they'd be constantly dying from walking into enemies or you'd have to mama-duck them through all the jumping.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Was angry about the missing party back then amongst all those other bad decisions they made, but come to think about it under the given circumstances that would very likely have made the game even more unbearable.
DeleteUltimaness. Ultimitude. Ultimocity.
DeleteThe whole thing sucks because combat is fundamentally boring, so to address a fundamentally boring combat the devs threw in a bunch of other stuff that was supposed to keep players occupied, but none of which works either. So it seems like a layer of boredom upon layer of boredom upon some exploration and some plot, which fundamentally doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteThe magic systems were interesting to me as someone who often plays magic using characters in games. They make you work a little more to prepare spells, and it harks back a bit towards the early Ultima games where you had to remember to mix spells from their reagents, something which got streamlined after a while.
ReplyDeleteOf course the big problem is that these potentially interesting magical adventures are hampered by a really clumsy user interface. I don't recall having too many problems myself, but then the last time I played this was many years ago and perhaps I was just far more patient with it as a youngster.
"All sorcerers have a Truename that differs from the name they use in conversation. Knowing a being's Truename allows a sorcerer to bind it to service. Something called the Tongue of Fire allows sorcerers to control Pyros."
ReplyDeleteThis is pretty much lifted out of Le Guin's Earthsea series.
Le Guin didn't actually originate the concept. It goes way back: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name
DeleteI think the setup where you start without a True Name and a wizard bestows one on you as part of an initiation, which gives that wizard a particular bond with you, comes from Earthsea though.
DeleteAlthough in Earthsea everybody gets one at the age of majority, not just a wizard's apprentice. In the first book the same wizard comes to town to perform the main character's naming ceremony, and later becomes their mentor when they show magic ability, so it's easy to mix them up.
Nice Kikoskia shout-out. He used to be one of the true greats on YouTube. I fell off his channel when he moved to streaming; it didn't quite hit the same. But he introduced me to -so- many interesting niche games, like Birthright and Whale's Voyage (sorry about that one..!).
ReplyDeletePotentially good news (for some): The Ultima games are now available on Steam as well.
ReplyDeleteBad news: They cost the same on GOG now, i.e. U4 is no longer available for free there and instead of the U1-3 bundle (which nominally sold for USD 5.99, but went as low as USD 0.89 on sale), these games are sold individually now for USD 4.99.
Even if you currently get a 50% discount, that's still a multiple of the former bundle price.
Okay, so now that the cat is out of the bag with the Guardian also being the Destroyer... can we discuss what the purpose of this exercise was?
ReplyDeleteThe Guardian got the Pagans to worship the elemental spirits instead of the Zealan gods of emotion. But for what end?
The Guardian destroyed most of Pagan in his feigned attempt at detroying all of it. But for what end?
While UU2 had Mors Gotha, the Guardian's personal champion, it's obvious that aside from her the Guardian does not seem to talk to the Pagans at all, with the so-called "Destroyer" pretending to be driven off. He clearly isn't raising them as some sort of army or anything, especially given that the elemental spirits have only divided the Pagans further. In fact, it's quite unclear if the elemental spirits are loyal to the Guardian any more, not to mention that Lithos has an obvious sentimental and physical attachment to Pagan, appearing in the mountain as well as claiming all of the soil on Pagan as "His Earth", to quote the Avatar's hilariously toadying speech. There is nothing in Brittania the Guardian could offer Lithos!
So what, did the Guardian ruin an entire world just to have some place to dump the Avatar?
Very good points. As usual, I don't think Origin really thought any of this through.
DeleteHonestly I can't be bothered to care that much about the retcons in previous ultimas where they decided to retroactively tie things together, etc. But what sucks here is that for once they were actually building to something what with the recurring villain and the seeds planted in the U7s and Underworld... and then just threw it in the bin. That was a new low!
DeleteI suspect it was just to destroy a world. That the Avatar was dumped there was just due to timing. It hadn't been destroyed yet, and could be used to torment the Avatar. Note all the lies the Guardian always tells him about destroying Britannia.
DeleteThe Guardian doesn't just want to take over anywhere. He wants to damage and dominate it in the process.
The conquering is what he's after, not owning a place. Preferably while making it reliant on him.
With Pagan, he also destroyed a civilization that might have been able to fight him off. If a large amount (was it most?) of the people hadn't turned to him before releasing the Titans.
Also, I think part of it is to show that the Guardian isn't simply someone that can be reasoned with or was forced into doing the wrong things for the right reasons (like the gargoyles). The evil IS his purpose, not just something he had to do to accomplish something. He deliberately ruins everything he touches, then goes on to the next world.
Most likely, it's all of the above, depending on the author at the time.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain
DeleteYou could perhaps think that the Guardian saw Pagan as a threat at one time, and decided to destroy it. Then he can have his little minions rule over what is left, and send the avatar there because he feels it is so out of the way, so pitiful, that the avatar would be no threat.
DeleteThis isn't particularly supported by the text of the game though.
Also I suppose if Arcadion is correct and this is the past, that is even more out of the way, and the avatar would be even more lost. If only the avatar knew some sort of Time Lord, alas.
Obviously Pagan was created as a test for the Avatar, carefully calibrated to turn him away from Virtue.
DeleteNaq fvapr gur thneqvna vf gur Ningne rivy fvqr, gung Cntna vf gur bevtva cbvag bs gur thneqvna vgfrys. Ur perngrq uvzfrys ivn genafgrzcbeny furaanavtnaf.
(This is a joke, to be clear, but it actually kinda fits).
If we take UU2 as a guide to what Guardian does with worlds, then we can see that it really doesn't need much from quite a few of them aside of maintaining some sort of a shrine that drains energy; he may also leave some of his agents. There was a world that Guardian turned into a frozen desert, which still allowed him to drain its energy.
DeleteTherefore, in Pagan Guardian could maintain a similar presence and simply drain some energy (whatever it is) to maintain his conquest. Besides, we do not know what Lithos does with all the dead that he supposedly animated - does he try to man an undead army?
Finally, as far as Pagan being Guardian's world, it may be Guardian's in a sense that he originated there; the whole concept of "gods coming from emotions" leave room for some nasty gods trying to do some BS to rule them, and perhaps Guardian is one such god of, I don't know, megalomania or something. His appearance in Pagan was quite sudden, and it seemed that it was dependent on a cult built around himself when other gods were still in power. Was, perhaps, Chumash-Gor to do something with it?
Hmm? I always thought what The Grauniad destroyed Pagan and attempted to destroy the Serpent Isles as part of ethereal void highway construction project for an express route, but due terrible budget cuts was forced to improvise with poorly implemented ad hoc demolition plans.
DeleteMore seriously, Pagan probably is another shard of Sosaria (Runic alphabet mentioned as archaic by Bentic) turned into storage area for ever-growing army of undead (All dead goes to Lithos, isn't it), daemons (Story about girl who turned into one. Probably) and minions of the lurker(all drown mutates into one. Probably).
But on the other hand, The Guardian always felt for me more like, "Come, conquered, got bored, don't care about place, moved to next level" kind of guy, though. Alexander the Great, if you will.
So I'm lean more into Pagan acting as gilded cage for inept titanic relatives.
By the way, anyone remembers Morghrim? The blind druid from Pagan with crushed Silver Seed and friend of the Hound of Doskar in SI? Not even Origin at time? Fine.
And another good question, why exactly The Guardian unimaginatively called the Red Titan. This is because he tend to paint towns red in blood? He is so fat what everything appears red because of gravitational redshift? That why the Avatar wearing red instead of orange now? Or there was a green titan? Because some people only see skin color? I'm seriously curious about how Origin come up with Red Mondain.
P.S. I apologize if someone already posted link about plot cuts in U8. Beware, dashing stranger! Minor spoilers included.
https://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Plot_cuts_in_Ultima_VIII
Also it was... let's say, interesting to reread this stories about Brittania virtues from defunct u9 origin site. Spoilers for U6. No spoilers for U9 or U8.
https://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Parables_of_Virtue:_Prologue
Back in the 90s, I recall a computer magaine listing the top computer game villains, and the Guardian made the list!
DeleteEven back then, I thought the Guardian was basically the high budget version of the 'evil wizard antagonist' trope, a singular persuit for evilness and given flucatating omniscient powers as the narrative demanded it. He could pick you up with a giant hand from the void and chuck you in another planet, but needed a team to help him come through a black gate.
The way he invaded Pagan all seems convuluted and 'extra'. Are the titans themselves know who is he and are they in on the fun? Or did he just set them up for kicks?
Didn't some earlier titles (particularly uw2) hint that Pagan was the Guardian's home?
DeleteClearly they changed their minds, but seeing as I refuse to accept u9 as cannon, perhaps it can be imagined that the Red Titan was created in a similar way to the elemental foursome. He then came back to have the people make more titans to keep the old homestead under control.
It makes as much sense as anything else.
Nanani - I think that theory is as coherent a theory as we're going to get, thank you!
DeleteYeah, there were hints that Pagan was his home, and there was all that stuff in U7P2 about the tree.
DeleteI'm glad that now that you've beaten the game I can also let the cat out of the bag that Origin seems to also have forgotten what Mors Gotha said about "the Guardian's palace on Pagan" in UU2.
DeleteAnd of course, the Guardian couldn't have put one of those giant Moai head things in Pagan like he did Brittania because the Destroyer was supposed to have lost to the new gods of the elements.
"But at least earlier Ultimas coupled this type of exploration and info-dumping with some attempts at classic RPG character development, leveling, and inventory and wealth acquisition."
ReplyDeleteYou've probably mentioned some in past posts, but what are your favorite video games with limited or no character development? Are they pseudo-RPGs or from a secondary genre or just random misfits?
I like Assassin's Creed and Grand Theft Auto on the console. But I'm looking for a different experience on the console than on the PC. I'm trying to remember any game I've even played on the PC that wasn't an RPG. Minesweeper was pretty good, I guess.
DeletePirates!, no?
DeleteWait, didn't you also do a brief on Warlords? (Looks it up.) Yeah, I and II, even.
Pirates! you could call a pseudo-RPG, but Warlords is pure strategy game.
In Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ Earth (styled Urth) is both a proper name and not. The conceit is that Earth, Mars and Venus are named after the Norns of Norse myth, but it is also contradicted immediately it is stated:
ReplyDelete'The Chatelaine Thea, who must have been listening to Vodalus though she had showed no sign of it, looked across him to me and said in a sweet, cooing voice, "Do you know how our world was renamed, torturer? The dawnmen went to red Verthandi, who was then named War. And because they thought that had an ungracious sound that would keep others from following them, they renamed it, calling it Present. That was a jest in their tongue, for the same word meant Now and The Gift. Or so one of our tutors once explained the matter to my sister and me, though I do not see how any language could endure such confusion."
Vodalus listened to her as though he were impatient to speak himself, yet was too well mannered to interrupt her.
"Then others who would have drawn a people to the innermost habitable world for their own reasons took up the game as well, and called that world Skuld, the World of the Future. Thus our own became Urth, the World of the Past."
"You are wrong in that, I fear," Vodalus told her. "I have it on good authority that this world of ours has been called by that name from the utmost reaches of antiquity. Still, your error is so charming that I would rather have it that you are correct and I mistaken."'
No fair invoking the greatest book of all time in this context.
DeleteMy kingdom for a CRPG in the solar cycle setting. Absolutely perfect for that kind of scifi/fantasy mix
DeleteWhile I was checking Chet's progress on a YouTube walkthrough (not Kikoskia, 80% done?) I stumbled across a reel from a few weeks ago. Big news, actually!
ReplyDeleteRichard Garriott invoked the 35-year U.S. copyright law to reclaim the Ultima IP from EA for free. He notified them in 2026, takes full control in 2027, and already plans to re-release the classics and make a new Ultima game.
If he puts AI anywhere near it I'm gonna grab a cheese grater and he's gonna "lose an eighth" down there, as it were.
DeleteAbout your problem to pick up items, maybe you are standing over them, it's hard to see. Next time you may want to try to walk a few steps away.
ReplyDeleteDidn't someone suggest using the telepathy equivalent spell for that?
DeleteSir Addict. Have you looked at the game Magic the Gathering from 1997?
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_%281997_video_game%29
As I recall it had some surprising role playing with depth. It is also an excuse to play lots of M:tG. Still , I recommend taking a look. Although it is a ways away till you get to ‘97
Shandalar is such a nice border case in what to consider a CRPG that I would strongly suggest Chet briefs it in a few years just to tell us if it meets his definition.
DeleteShandalar is a fantastic deck game, I played it a lot back in the days. I can recall hp, food and gold management. Village quests, dungeon delving, map exploration, amulets, and "Everybody, Goblin Polka!". Yet I struggle to remember any actual CRPG elements. If there any.
DeleteHaven't played Shandalar yet (it's on a very long backlist), Wikipedia says "role-playing elements are present, including inventory, gold, towns, dungeons, random battles, and character progression in the form of new abilities and a higher life point total".
DeleteEven to be BRIEFed, it normally would have to appear as RPG on at least one of the Master Game List sources, though, and none of them see it as RPG. 1997 is still quite a bit off, however, and our host might decide to make an exception due to MtG's general impact or for other reasons (as he has said he may e.g. for HoMM (1995) due to the connection with the Might and Magic universe / series). I guess you can think about making your case once the blog gets close(r) to the 1997 list.
Were there any Deck Building RPGs before Shandalar?
DeleteEven if it’s not the first, I would wager it helped pull the sub-genre into to big time.
Shandalar's pretty definitively not a CRPG under Chet's definition. All advancement except changes to starting life is inventory-based: cards explicitly so, abilities because they're all bought.
DeleteI have never played any form of Magic: The Gathering. I was put off by cringey TV commercials in the 1990s, and I don't think I realized how much they clouded my opinion about the franchise until now.
Delete@Larry: Wikipedia's list of digital collectible card games currently has Dragon Ball: Daimaō Fukkatsu (1989) as the oldest one of those, though obviously not all of them would fit the mold of 'RPG', depending on your definition.
DeleteIn fact, said Dragon Ball game was covered here on the blog (came up on a random roll) in 2022. The question "Is this the first card-battler RPG?" already came up in the comments back then, but there was no answer to that.
As for the contemporary impact of MicroProse's Magic: The Gathering (AKA Shandalar), The Digital Antiquarian states that it "didn’t set the world on fire" and reports that "[n]ot long after Duels of the Planeswalkers [ed.: a standalone upgrade] came out in January of 1998, the whole line fell out of print, having never quite lived up to MicroProse’s expectations for it".
@Chet: Maybe check out his two-part 2023 coverage of (1) the card game and (2) the [Microprose/Shandalar] video game to (potentially) give you another view of MtG. Sid Meier was involved in the development of the latter - though not until the end, he left to found Firaxis, which is why he does not show up in the credits.
@Busca, that article on Digital Antiquarian did not go into details of what would or would not make Shandalar an RPG. Besides, some of the information he provided is not correct: no, there are cards unique to the dungeon, yes, they were legendarily powerful at the time, and, no, you cannot randomly get every card in the game.
DeleteShandalar did not go out of print just because of the sales: it had compatibility issues with faster machines, and it was not terribly stable under XP either, with the whole thing clearly developed for Win 98. Getting it to work around 2002-2003 was already an issue. It didn't help that Wizards launched their online version of Magic in 2002, if my memory serves me right, and expected everyone to switch to it.
@RG: Where exactly did I postulate it would? I just suggested our host check it out for a perspective different from the "cringey TV commercials in the 1990s" he mentioned.
DeleteAnd if you know all of that better, feel free to write a better blog yourself. Alternatively, comment there, the author is usually open to corrections.
“I have never played any form of Magic: The Gathering. I was put off by cringey TV commercials in the 1990s, and I don't think I realized how much they clouded my opinion about the franchise until now.”
DeleteWell, for what it’s worth, I too do not care for the actual irl card game. Always felt too much like a pay for play pyramid scheme, and the irl interaction I had were indeed “cringe”.
So I was surprised that I liked the computer game like I did. And I am pretty sure it was the (pseudo?) RPG trappings, as my Shandalar enjoyment led me try Arena. I soon moped out of that for similar reasons.
Dammit. I just convinced myself to play the game again.
@Larry, MtG: Arena is a relatively recent free-to-play spinoff; the fully pay-to-play analog was Magic the Gathering Online.
Delete@RandomGamer Ahh. Thank you. Like I say, I hit it and quit it. Somewhere down the line I conflated the two.
Delete@Larry, I had similar experience as you with MTG franchise except it wasn't Arena but Duels of the Planeswalkers for me. I think I really liked Shandalar campaign because of switch from "Combat as Sport" to "Combat as War". Your victories and losses mattered at least short-term.
DeleteAs you started with terrible deck, grinding enemies and dungeons for better cards was important.
You learned to pick beatable fights and win them with garbage you found so far.
You actually needed to find out about your enemies schticks and you "couldn't" just make a perfect counter build for dungeon bosses without considering their flunkies whom will try to sap your dwindling supply of life points. And dungeons special effects made it more interesting.
...
Huh. Huh. Honestly, I realized what a lot of RTS/deck/fighting games will be much more fun for me under Shandalar campaign framework.
If you think MtG is a pyramid scheme, you really need to look up what the term pyramid scheme means!
DeleteHa, that little jab at “What’s a Paladin?” made my day. It’d be funny if it weren’t so sad how EA ruining the writing of long-standing series for the sake of the lowest common denominator repeats first as a tragedy and then as a [Veilguard] farce.
ReplyDeleteThere actually a good watsonian reasons for the Avatar to appear so ignorant and foolish if you think about it.
DeleteFirst and foremost, A language drift. A LOT of time passes between Ultima games. Sure, pre-u7 Lord British could imported dictionaries from Earth and enforced draconian measures to keep drift manageable. But there always can be a situation where you walk into mutated word like "vergence" what have different meanings in optics, biology, geology and star wars. Better be careful about that.
Second, the Avatar big thing... no, I'm not about making people completely dependant on him for solving their massive crises. It's communication, actually learning about other cultures without seeing their principles as just another annoying checklist for your quest. You need to be sure what you on same page and understand each other. Otherwise it will be difficult to uninspire them to fix their own damn problems.
And last but not a least one is exercise in the virtue of Humility.
So "what's a paladin?"
One the Charlemagne's twelve peers? High level official? A holy warrior of a gods? A magic knight dedicated to principle of abstract goodness? A warrior class whom arbitrary lost spellcasting abilities while still being dedicated to virtue of Justice? Or "Granduncle, are you going senile?"
...
I'm full of it, I know. It just bad writing and poor handling of "New player. What's this?" after all.
P.S. If you even wondered how much Ultima 9 plot changed during development hell, check pre-simplified version at ultimacodex.
Some big SPOILERS for the final version of plot, obviously. Posting it now, not going to wait five ChetYears until U9 itself.
https://gallery.ultimacodex.com/ultima-9-the-bob-white-plot/
There is for sure character progression, in the form of HP, and abilities.
ReplyDeleteAs for equipment, there is that as well, and I feel like the Deck is also a form of equipment.
There are NPCs and a good storyline with side quests and alternate endings. It is quite replayable, IMO.
There is also its sequel/collected expansion packs? That was also quite fun IMO
Ultimately, I do think there is a case to be made, and besides, I remember it being quite fun.
"Now I want to know what happens if you create a character named Daemion"
ReplyDeleteIn my last Baldur's Gate playthrough, my main character was a figther with very low int, which I named "Dimwit".
Early in the game you meet a lady that asks you something like "are you a dimwit?".
Unfortunately there was no dialogue option for asking her how did she know. :)
Not sure why it published as anonymous, that would me my message. Thanks Blogger. Or Chrome. Either way, I blame Google :)
DeleteI feel like I've heard stories of RPGs that react to specific names, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
DeleteUndertale.
Delete@Chet: Not sure if that "counts", but when playing LoRD you reported you can pay the bartender to change your name and if you try to change it to one of the game's NPCs, you get various humorous messages (corresponding screenshot from your coverage).
Delete@Addict, specific names are a somewhat notorious feature in Castlevania series, but I don't think it was there already in 1994.
Delete@RandomGamer: Don't want to open the discussion here about which, if any, Castlevanias would fall under CRPG on this blog (most being console-only anyway), but when the Addict covered Castlevania II, he wasn't really convinced by its RPG credentials.
DeleteBaldurs Gate, duh. Drizzt gets really pissed when he meets his evil namesakes.
Delete"I'm not sure about this new Avatar. He behaves very oddly..."
Delete"Who, X-X!V''Q? I tried to talk to him but he flew backwards from me and I haven't seen him since."
Sure, it counts, Busca. I forgot about that. Other good examples here.
DeleteUse Doug the Eagle Dragon's walkthrough to cure you out of your boredom.
ReplyDelete"Four candles."
ReplyDelete"...nah. Fork'andles. Fork'andles. 'andles for pyromancy."
If I ever get around making a point and click adventure game, this would be a great idea for a puzzle! Of course, it would be completely unlocalizable and moon logic, which would put it on par with Monkey Island 2's monkey wrench and Kyrandia's toadstool puzzle.
Delete