Wednesday, August 19, 2026

Pagan: Skull Island

The blacksmith is sexist and fascist.
     
The Guardian has banished the Avatar to a world that has undergone a cataclysm. The last remaining city (at least, that anyone knows about) is ruled by a tyrant named Lady Mordea. After witnessing Mordea beheading a dissenter in the last episode, the Avatar is now taking his first steps into the city of Tenebrae. As I do, the voice of the Guardian rumbles: "Yes, Avatar. Seek the way home."
     
Tenebrae looks to have roughly the same early-19th Century technology level as Britannia. It has wide stone streets lined with landscaping, wrought-iron fences, stone statutes, and bright gas lamps that cast pools of light on the street. 
     
A guard tells me that I'm in Central Tenebrae. The palace is to the north; he suggests that I avoid it. The rich area is to the east and the poor area to the west. I explore the guardhouse behind him, which has two entrances connected by a stone bridge. In the east guardhouse, I open a chest, which explodes and takes me down to 8 hit points. There's some food in a nearby barrel, and each piece restores a couple of points. The chest has a helmet and a bag with some obsidian coins.
          
Looting the guard tower. Note the skull on the tankard.
       
In the western guardhouse, I find two Scrolls of Trap Detection and a chest with two cloaks and a flask of oil. It's locked, but there's a key nearby. I decide I don't need to feel bad about stealing from guards who serve a tyrannical ruler.
   
I skip the exits to the rich and poor areas for now and move north across a bridge, where I find myself at Lady Mordea's palace. Most of the NPCs around her are rude guards who suggest that Mordea doesn't really even need guards since she's a powerful Tempest. I find Mordea eating dinner in a dining room. She's affronted that I dare speak to her and keeps asking where I come from. I try all the answers, but she doesn't like any of them.
        
I suppose I should be happy she didn't order me beheaded.
      
Mordea is being served by a woman named Aramina, who says she's too busy to talk now but will be at her house in East Tenebrae "at Bloodwatch." I guess time does matter in the game.
   
Elsewhere in the palace:
   
  • I find a bunch of food in the kitchen and dining areas, which slowly get my hit points back to 30.
  • I come across several casks, but unlike Ultima VII, this game doesn't let me turn them on and watch their contents pool on the ground while my companions yell that I'm wasting it.
      
I guess I'll just have to imagine Dupre screaming in my head.
       
  • In what looks like an infirmary (with no patients), a bunch of cloths are laid out on a table with nearby razor blades, presumably to cut them into bandages. But this game won't let me do that. I'm finding that a lot of things in Pagan are not interactable the way they were in previous Ultima games. You can't sit in chairs, use looms, turn lamps on or off, turn the spigots on casks, or move most of the furniture. You can sleep in some beds, but the game just asks how long you want to sleep; it doesn't even show the Avatar lying down.
  • I am, however, able to throw darts at a dartboard in the barracks. 
  • Big Book of Adventure by Sladek suggests this game will feature lever puzzles, traps, chests of loot, mazes, and trick books called Tricks of the Trixter. Later, west of the palace in a little wooded area, I find a body lying on a bench. It has a book on it. When I double-click on it to read it, it explodes.
     
The "Trixter" is somehow Chuckles. I just know it.
         
  • A lower level has a door opened by a switch. A plaque reads "Authorized Personnel Only." It opens into a torture chamber with a bunch of locked doors leading off of it. I can't figure out how to open them. Cobwebs and desiccated corpses suggest that no one has been here in a while. 
     
I guess they no longer bother to imprison people first.
       
  • An armory looks like it has some cool stuff, but the doors are locked. A guard log on a table outside suggests that nothing ever really happens here.
  • There's a weird area on the palace roof that has four dragon statues facing inward towards a glowing square on the ground. A throne-like seat sits facing the square. When I step on it, though, nothing happens. 
    
Do I even want to know what happens here?
            
I still hate the controls. I find it hard to steer the Avatar where I want him to go and even harder to activate moving NPCs. I would so much rather move with the keyboard and talk to someone by hitting (T)alk and clicking on them rather than trying to double-click with the same arrow I use for movement. Argh. 
      
That wraps up Central Tenebrae. Next, I go through the east gate to the wealthy quarter. "Your treasured Britannia succumbs easily. Soon, all the land will be mine," the Guardian rumbles as I start moving through the area. Discoveries:
   
  • A beggar asks for money. I give him three obsidian pieces.
  • A little girl has a lot of questions. 
     
The girl asks what I did in Britannia. The third option is a joking reference to the bread-baking mechanic of Ultima VII, which, silly as it was, exemplified a kind of interactivity that this game isn't capable of.
      
  • There's a warrior training hall run by a man named Darion, who also sells arms and armor. He'll spar with me for 50 coins, but I don't have that much. I later find Darion on the other side of town, so I guess he gets around.
  • Darion's house is attached to the training hall. It has a basement with several rooms, but I can't figure out how to get out of the arrival room.
     
I see the switch on the other side; I'm just not sure how to get to it.
       
  • There's an opulent building in the southern part of the district, but there's no sign on it and no one in it.
  • There's a huge building belonging to Salkind the Seneschal (according to a sign). Salkind is inside. Haughty and insulting, he shows loyalty to Mordea and tells me that the title of Tempest is hereditary. He has a number of books in his study, one of which is yet another exploding book, which this time kills me.
      
Were these really necessary?
       
  • Salkind's desk has a "logbook of crimes and punishments on it." It lists about eight people recently beheaded for treason and slander. There are several other books that I add to "The Books of Pagan" entry  (which published at the same time as this one, in case you missed it).
      
Beheading and fining sounds like something they'd do in Florida.
       
  • There's a patch of mushrooms I can pick.
  • Several large buildings are locked.  
  • A large pool of water—one of several in the area—is called the Spring of the Eternal Hydros. 
  • There's a large library with even more books. This takes me a while. All books are added to "The Books of Pagan." Bentic, author of The Chronicle of Pagan, is in his office here. He's a cheerful fellow who acknowledges that the government is "restrictive." They recently took his personal diary. His best friend is Devon, the fisherman who rescued me. When I ask him about leaving Pagan, he suggests I talk to Mythran. My first lead! He even gives me directions to Mythran's home on the Plateau, north of the city.
      
Just give me the address. I have a GPS.
      
  • I can't remember what building it was, but when I entered, the Guardian's voice said: "Soon, Britannia will be mine. It seems that you are missed here. Why, I believe I hear Lord British crying out for you now." 
      
That's about all I can find to do in the rich quarter, so I head back through Central Tenebrae to the poor quarter.
   
  • The first building I enter is a tavern. The barmaid is Jenna, who took the job after her father kicked her out for refusing to marry. She wants to be an adventurer and wears her grandfather's sword on her hip; she claims she's killed several men with it. The bartender is named Orlock; he tells me a story about a ghost who wanders the hills above Tenebrae, guarding buried treasure.
     
However he came about it, that's an unflattering sobriquet.
        
  • South of the inn, I find the house of Shaana the Executioner—the woman who cut off poor Toran's head last session. She's hacking away at practice dummies. In conversation, she says that she likes her job, but she cannot countenance Lady Mordea's denying proper funeral rites to those she executes. She's a private person in general and doesn't want to answer my questions; she suggests I go see Bentic at the library. At one point, she says something like: "Why are you so interested in my name and occupation?" I didn't screenshot it and didn't think anything about it at the time, but now I realize it's a joke about the NAME and JOB keywords that characterized a lot of previous Ultima games. Pagan sure enjoys making fun of games that are better than Pagan.
     
Shaana doesn't mind the executions, just the burials. More on her tapestries later.
         
  • A blacksmith named Korick runs a shop. He's satisfied with his place in life, even though it hasn't made him rich. He says there was recently a fire on the north end of the district, in which an old man was killed. He laments that the people have become hard and unfriendly lately. He recently captured a cutpurse who attacked an old woman.
     
That third dialogue option seems odd out of context.
       
  • While I'm in Korick's place, I make the mistake of slightly moving a saber on a table. He immediately summons a guard and accuses me of theft. The guard (a sorcerer, I assume) sentences me to death and hits me with a fireball. I am literally blown to pieces, with my arms, legs, head, and torso falling into a bloody pile. Lesson learned: don't steal things in front of people. Unfortunately, Korick never seems to leave his shop.
    
Pagan has a brutal criminal justice system.
       
  • One house has a dead peasant slumped at a table, with no indication what's happened.
     
Should I alert someone?
       
  • There are several unoccupied houses.
  • I run across a guard interrogating a woman, either about something that happened last night, her unpaid taxes, or both. The conversation just goes in a circle, and there's nothing I can do about it.  
     
Why, with your wife, my friend.
       
  • There's a building that seems like a jail, with a troll wandering behind the bars, and a wounded torax (a domesticated reptile) on the ground. Maybe it's a gladiatorial pit.
     
This series is fond of visual vignettes with no explanation.
        
  • Near a ruined building on the north end of town, a specter appears and starts conjuring zombies out of the ground. I kill one of them, but flee from the others. 
    
I do no damage to the specter while zombies close in.
       
And that's it, although NPCs seem to keep to schedules, so it's likely that I missed some of them. Still, in many ways Tenebrae is the opposite of the typical Ultima city. In previous games, the cities were unrealistically small but packed with NPCs. Tenebrae has a larger physical space than any previous Ultima city, but a tiny number of NPCs live there, and most don't have anything interesting to say.
         
Other notes:
   
  • The NPCs move about, do chores, pace, and talk to themselves and to each other. I suppose they did that in Ultima VII as well, though.
      
They don't always say profound things.
       
  • You have to talk to NPCs at least twice to get everything they have to say. Not all dialogue options come up during the first conversation. 
  • If you pause during conversation (for instance, to take notes for a blog entry) without choosing one of the options, the NPCs sometimes get angry.
      
Shaana reacts to a tongue-tied moment.
         
  • The water graphics in this game are just bizarre. Even small pools are drawn as if to suggest that they plunge into an abyss.
      
A little thalassophobia here in the courtyard.
             
  • The Pagans are obsessed with skulls. There were skull carvings along the bridge, skulls on the tankards, skulls on the corners of the end tables, skulls on the water troughs. Shaana's house is full of skull tapestries. In Lady Mordea's palace, there's a cushion with a skull on it in her throne room, and in her bedroom, she has a picture of a skull propped up on her vanity. 
      
What kind of sick person looks at a skull while putting on her perfume?
       
  • In Ultima VII, you could double-click on chests and doors from an entire screen away, and they'd open up. Pagan makes you get right up to objects before you can activate them. 
     
I cannot read this book from here. Realistic, but still annoying.
       
  • In the two Ultima VII games, all the buildings were packed with valuable stuff. There's no way I could have gone through any city in Britannia or Serpent Isle and not walked out with a full suit of armor and a better weapon. After leaving Tenebrae, however, I have a dagger, a helmet, clothes, 16 coins, and a couple of potions. 
  • Judging by the clocks I clicked on, time passes very slowly. I think there are six time periods: DayTide, ThreeMoons, LastEbb (this is my best interpretation; it actually looks like "LastE66"), EvenTide, BloodWatch, and FirstEbb. (Everyone stop reading my entry right now, click on this, skip past the Pocket ad, and close your eyes. What a great song for a summer evening.) 
       
Or maybe it's LastEgg?
        
  • This is the first Ultima game in a long time with no experience points or levels. The manual suggests that attributes increase directly through exercise. It says that intelligence increases from casting spells, dexterity from jumping, throwing, and grabbing. It does not mention how strength increases. In any event, my intelligence and dexterity have both increased by a point since the beginning of the game. I have not cast any spells yet, though. I don't even know how. 
   
Aramina told me to meet her in east Tenebrae at BloodWatch, so I keep an eye on the clocks and head back to that side of town when the hour rolls around. I run around the district and find her in a house that was locked before. She doesn't offer much, though. She says Lady Mordea is a hard woman who will do anything to retain power, even commit murder. Meanwhile, the seneschal constantly torments Aramina with mindless tasks and sexually assaults her in the hallways. She's afraid she'll lose her head if she says anything. It's good background info, but it's not like I needed a reason to dislike Mordea and Salkind. 
         
Aramina lets it all spill out.
         
Aramina also says she met Devon once in the market and liked his smile. She asks me to mention her to him. I head back to his fishing spot, but he's gone. While I'm there, though, I discover I can roll up his sleeping mat and take it with me, allowing me to sleep wherever I want. On the way back to Tenebrae, I find a ruined building that I missed previously. It has a locked chest in it. It and all the locked doors in town make me wonder if there's some way to open locked things without keys. I try attacking it for a while, but that accomplishes nothing except making the chest jump around, which is kind of funny.
      
One of many mysteries.
        
My only lead at this point is that Mythran might be able to help me, and that he lives on the Plateau north of the city. I head through the palace and out the north gate. I start exploring this new area (from Bentic's directions, I gather this is The Valley) by going counter-clockwise about its perimeter. A few minutes later, I come upon a group of little girls, the ground around them strewn with dolls. The girls attack me! Figuring they're demons in disguise or something, I retaliate, and soon the bodies of four children are on the ground in front of me. What the hell, Ultima?! Is there supposed to be some connection to the Expedition Journal, Book II? Or is this just one of those inexplicable weird encounters like the ones we saw in Ultima VII? I know game development studios aren't like television shows, but I'd like to be in the equivalent of the "writer's room" for Ultima VIII when this kind of decision is made. How does no one object to it during playtesting?
       
Somebody has a sick sense of humor.
      
I reload, skip this area, and continue past a herd of nonviolent toraxes and then am attacked by a kith, which has no trouble killing me. 
     
I wish I had more than a dagger.
      
Reloading again, I take the other direction and head clockwise from the entrance. I find:
   
  • A very large area of grassland with nothing in it. It's kind of fun to go skipping through it, though.
  • North of a mushroom patch, two trolls are fighting each other. The winner turns his attention to me and kills me in a couple of blows.
         
I miss Britannia's bridge trolls.
       
Okay, clearly I'm missing something. I assume one of the following is true:
   
  • There are one or more areas where I can fight and make money, perhaps out the east or west exits from Tenebrae.
  • The game assumes I'm going to loot the armory.
  • I missed some other encounter that would have helped. In particular, that ghost I fled from was supposed to be guarding treasure. Maybe I should try harder in that area.
  • I'm meant to just run through the area north of Tenebrae and not stop to meet the kiths or trolls. 
      
I'll explore these possibilities next time. I'm a bit disappointed as I reach the end of this session. I would have expected a lot more world-building, development, maybe even some side-quests in the land's only city. It's also a bit too much like a generic Britannian city; I feel like the authors could have made an alien world a little more alien.
    
Here's something that will make you laugh: Deep into this session, I was vaguely wondering when I would meet the first member of my inevitable party. I thought it would be Jenna. It didn't hit me until I was four hours into the game that this would be a solo adventure. That's almost startling. The Avatar has been a team player since Ultima II.  
      
Time so far: 5 hours 
   
****
   
   
   08/19/2026 

88 comments:

  1. Trixter (well, Trickster) is the guy who first set up the Adventure Guild's blog. He may or may not be Chuckles. Make of that what you will.

    Also, "Tenebrae" is Latin for "shadows". I suppose that's a fitting name.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "Beheading and fining sounds like something they'd do in Florida."

    Ha!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When I was much younger, I found it weird how Tenebrae has a double justice system: Salkin/Mordea execute people through beheading (and fine them as well, I guess) for crime against the state, but the "guard" [he has a name] will kill you on the spot for property crime (or naked agression) without even reporting to Salkin/Mordea. Salkin must hate losing tax and fine opportunities!

      Much later, I realized that France (among others) works kind of the same with "Administrative Law" and "Criminal Law"

      Delete
    2. Is there a way to kill the guard or NPCs or are you instantly killed.
      The architect where probably edgy Goth/Metal fans and thought it looked supercool and evil.

      Delete
    3. Yes. Lbh pna xvyy cerggl zhpu nalguvat vapyhqvat gur gbja fbeprere gung oybjf lbh hc, ol fgnpxvat bowrpgf fb gung gurl cngusvaq gurzfryirf vagb jngre. Rira gur funyybj cbbyf xvyy.

      Delete
  3. "Near a ruined building on the north end of town, a specter appears and starts conjuring zombies out of the ground. I kill one of them, but flee from the others."

    I think there's a sidequest here. In fact, it's the only sidequest I remember in the game. ROT13: lbh ragre gur uhg, snyy vagb n ubyr, naq tb vagb n qhatrba gung lbh svtug guebhtu gb trg n fcrpvny znpr

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Vs V erzrzore pbeerpgyl, gurer ner frireny "uvqqra qhatrbaf" [V pna erzrzore gjb - juvpu gur gjb ersreerq gb va gur obbxf gung Purg unf nyernql ernq.

      Zl vffhr jvgu gur znpr vf gung vg vf dhvgr fvzcyl gur orfg jrncba bs gur tnzr, juvpu lbh pna rnea rkgerzryl rneyl. Bapr lbh unir vg, gur bayl bgure jrncba jbegu hfvat vf gur fjbeq bs creznarag fxryrgba xvyyvat.

      Delete
    2. I don't remember it being quite easy. I never got it. Maybe I just sucked at combat :)

      Delete
    3. Nah, that one sidequest is in a different place.

      Lbh ragre gur yvggyr qhatrba jvgu gur zntvp znpr sebz n ubyr va gur ebnq orgjrra Graroenr naq gur przragrel.

      Delete
    4. "Lbh ragre gur yvggyr qhatrba jvgu gur zntvp znpr sebz n ubyr va gur ebnq orgjrra Graroenr naq gur przragrel.."

      Gung jnf fhpu terng jrncba, obarpehfure vvep? Pbhyqa'g unir fheivirq jvgubhg vg.

      Delete
    5. You guys are going to think I translated this when you read my next entry, but I wrote it a week ago. I just happened to stumble into that place.

      I could have done without knowing that it's the "only sidequest," though.

      Delete
    6. It's not the only sidequest.

      Honestly i wouldn't say it's a sidequest at all, since it doesn't require to talk to anybody; Just a little optional area with some loot. There are a few of those.

      (Very few, but at least more than one).

      As for actual sidequests, that require to talk to someone...

      gurer vf rknpgyl bar, naq vf irel rnfl gb zvff vg fvapr vg'f n ovg pbaibyhgrq.

      Delete
  4. I'm a bit further in game than you were at the time of writing this post, and I can't shake the feeling that Ultima VIII is... a Veil of Darkness clone. Perhaps, an innovative clone, superior in some aspects (better engine, more in-game book lore), but clearly inferior in other ones (tortured dungeons, less NPC's, worse item interaction). The interface shares quite a few similarities; even your points of contentions (street lights) are the same.

    It is too bad you bailed out on Veil of Darkness after only briefing it, although I understand that it lost its remnants of RPG mechanics somewhere in development; it would be interesting to compare the two games in more detail.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Oddly, I never had issue with killing those kids.

    One of the two big frustrations I HAD with Pagan was the fact that it was solo adventure - particularly as iirc the screenshot at the back of the box showed you fighting with Shaana. Much later, I understood that working solo was part of what gave Pagan its unique atmosphere.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I mean, in a very technical sense it's not 100% solo - you can have your summons.

      Delete
    2. Indeed.

      One of the few games where it was easier & more conveniant to fight with magic than by just bashing the other guy/monster/undead.

      Delete
    3. I'm wondering now if the success of UUW is partly to blame for U8 being they way it is - a lot of aspects, in which U8 departs from the rest of the series, are also present in UUW: solo PC, action combat and platforming sequences, smaller world with the focus on dungeoneering...

      Delete
    4. I remember that exact picture well, I even looked up to see if the game was originally planned to be multi-character because of it. Such a misleading picture, I reckon they could have got into trouble for it(if anyone cared). When you think about it though, of course this game couldn't be multi-character, it just doesn't work with jumping puzzles.

      Delete
    5. Oddly, I never had issue with killing those kids.

      I can't believe you outed yourself The Wargaming Scribe

      We now know you are Anakin Skywalker

      Delete
    6. I am playing wargames so strat-bombing entire urban areas is second nature to me. Stabbing children with a sword is just a quaint old-timer way of doing my duty.

      Delete
  6. Fighting children is a long-standing Ultima tradition; there's an encounter like this one in every mainline Ultima since 5. According to Ultima Codex:

    A greatly controversial part of Ultima lore includes a set of monsters that appear as children; first encountered in the dungeon Hythloth in Ultima V. This is a part of the game wherein the player is assaulted by these creatures and must somehow deal with them. Richard Garriott originally included this dilemma to force players to consider their actions and hopefully provoke an emotional response. Outraged, an Origin employee resigned believing this to be a promotion of child abuse. Ever since then, Ultima games have featured disturbing situations involving children.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yep, it's a very strange trend. I remember a bunch of random children getting attacked by monsters in the dungeons under Lord British's castle in Ultima VI. What were they doing there? It certainly didn't seem like there was any way for me to get there in time to save them. I hated it!

      Delete
    2. I don't remember those previous encounters, if I encountered them at all. I think there are a few problems with the idea of these encounters as a "role-playing dilemma." The first is the old "Will Smith excuse for shooting the girl with the schoolbooks." If a bunch of children attack me on the eighth level of a dungeon, which also has demons and balrogs, I'm going to assume they're not regular children. Second, this series loves to just do weird things, like put random nudists or clowns in U7, so a pack of feral children just seems like another randomly weird thing. If Richard Garriott wanted to make a "dilemma," he'd give some context or give the sociopathic player an actual reason to kill them, like they're guarding a horde of treasure or are worth 10,000 experience points each.

      Delete
    3. It's not very interesting as a dilemma no, but it wasn't originally intended to be much of a big deal. It has its origin in a small team grinding out 256 unique dungeon rooms for Ultima 5 and trying to come up with as many unique ideas as they could to spice it up. Someone just went "hey what if we make a monster using the kid sprite, that'd be something different" and then it later became a big deal because Richard and Robert mutually made it a big deal whether or not to cut it from the game.

      Delete
    4. I'd made a comment about the most Ultima-like encounter in the game, referring to this. Don't see how you missed it in the past; I'd wondered how you would react with the greater visual detail in this game, but the point is moot. They do look like zombie children, though.

      Delete
    5. In addition, Ultima 7 lets you carry around babies everywhere for no good reason (rkprcg gb hfr qvegl qvncref ng rarzvrf).

      Delete
    6. Wait, do babies spontaneously produce diapers in U7??

      Delete
  7. The "Expedition Journal, Book II" mentioned in the lore post seems to set up the children encounter, calling them possible conjurations.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thalassophobia - so it took me almost 49 years to learn that of course there is a name for this feeling i get when looking at an underwater cliff where the floor just falls off into nothingness. Luckily it mostly only triggers when i am under water myself. It seems to have a lot to do with perspective for me, i am fine on a boat or ship for example. But i´ve seen aerial pictures of some island and you can see where it suddenly gets really deep and that already makes me shudder. The small pool in the picture also makes me uneasy somehow.
    Google account somehow does not work, sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "I am, however, able to throw darts at a dartboard in the barracks."
    Does the game give/count the scores?

    The 'Big Book of Adventure' mentions - according to the screenshot - exploding books as one of the Trixter's 'killer jokes' and after that you get caught not once, but twice by one? Is there no way to check for and either avoid entirely or potentially disarm such contraptions?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think there's any way to disarm them. I'm not sure whether they're labeled in such a way to warn you if you single-click on them.

      Delete
    2. Which would explain why they force you to be standing next to books in order to open them. Exploding books are no fun if you're across the room. But I can't remember now if there's a way to detect/disarm them before getting blown up.

      Delete
    3. Instead of forcing the player to stand next to the books to read them, it's also possible to just generate an explosion below the avatar regardless of where he's standing. That's what Ultima 7 does with its exploding chests.

      Delete
  10. Never as enjoyable as First£66

    ReplyDelete
  11. Regarding stat increases, the reference card says that strength goes up via jumping and fighting, dexterity from
    climbing and throwing things, and intelligence from casting spells. I think that running helps with strength and reading with intelligence. The ref card does say that jumping gets higher with more strength, but I have my doubts.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "The Avatar has been a team player since Ultima II."
    It started in Ultima III. And he's been a loner again since Underworld II, which is canon.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Pagan wants so badly to be edgy, but the half-baked nature of the production really interferes with pulling that off. I enjoyed it reasonably well as a kid, but now it's hard to ignore all the missed potential.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh yes. Imagine how the game box with its flaming pentagram must have looked in the middle of the 90s satanic panic.

      And as Chet points out, the name "Pagan" is pure banallure and has nothing to do with the game content, so it is clearly there solely to be _edgy_. Come to think of it, so was "Exodus".

      Delete
    2. @Radiant, how does "Pagan" have nothing to do with the game content if that's the name of the world you are trying to escape?

      Delete
    3. @RG, I suggest you look up the meaning of "banallure" in Chet's glossary.

      Delete
    4. Isn't the name "Pagan" integrated within the game on multiple levels? First, there's the fact that the world is named after the "Pagans" who forsook the three gods of emotion and worshipped the four elemental spirits (Though... I'd appreciate it mote if it had some previous name), and then there's the Avatar having to become a "pagan" to escape by betraying the virtues.

      I can't really criticize the in-universe name too hard because our real planet is named Earth because it's made out of earth.

      Delete
    5. @Radiant, so now it is just "banallure", but has at least *something* to do with the game content? Moving the goalposts, are we?

      If we look at the game in more detail, neither the lore regarding "why Pagan" is banal, nor the meaning is so straightforward, since the Avatar is quite a literal pagan there: he does not worship the world-specific pantheon and acts accordingly.

      Delete
    6. Radiant applied the term the way I intended. Although there’s an endgame explanation for it, it’s a banal explanation. That at least was my original take. I think RG makes a decent counterpoint about the avatar.

      Delete
    7. *In-game explanation. I shouldn’t try to comment when I’m on mobile.

      Delete
    8. @Radiant: Origin backtracked in the face of the 'satanic panic', though. They felt the need to insert explanatory remarks on 'pagan' and 'pentagram' in the manual, distancing themselves from any associations which might be perceived as unsavoury, and they eliminated the 'edgy' pentagram on the box in later releases.

      Delete
    9. @RG: The manual uses the original definition of 'pagan' as "a follower of a polytheistic religion" and refers to the polytheistic worshippers of the mythological Elemental Titans in the game's setting. So in that sense, they are the pagans, and not the Avatar.

      Delete
    10. @Commenter, that's exactly what the manual doesn't do, since the religion from which in-game "pagans" split from is also polytheistic. If anything, the manual uses "pagan" in its original meaning, which is: non-majority religion.

      Delete
    11. Random, maybe you should not be so quick to insult people who disagree with you. We're all game geeks here trying to have a pleasant discussion, and your tone is... less than helpful.

      Delete
    12. The Satanic Panic was really an '80s phenomenon; it wasn't still going to any real extent by the time Pagan came out. If it had been, Doom, the previous year, would likely have drawn much more of its attention.

      Delete
    13. @RG: OK, I should have been more specific / clearer.

      I was referring to the added language I linked to above in my reply to Radiant under "explanatory remarks". As you can see, the definition of "pagan" (lower case) as "a follower of a polytheistic religion" I mentioned is a verbatim quote from Origin's document (which itself took it from Webster's). It's followed by a couple lines which to me suggested a connection to the polytheistic worshippers of the mythological Elemental Titans - check for yourself.

      However, you are right that the "Pagans" (upper case), as such term is used in the manual describing the history of the world the Avatar gets dropped into, appear to be named as such because they started to worship different mythical beings than the established ones. It seems the first time the term is used there is this: "The archaic deities of the emotions became enraged as their powers diminished, commanding their worshippers to slay the followers of this new religion, who thus became known as Pagans."

      Putting these two aspects side by side makes Origin's terminology and explanations for it look a bit incongruous or at least ambigious, but maybe I'm missing something here.

      Delete
    14. @Delvin Anaris: You are right, the term 'satanic panic' was a bit misplaced here. Nevertheless, the game came out smack in the middle of the whole 1993/1994 'ratings for videogames' discussion (The Digital Antiquarian has a four-part series of articles on the subject starting here).

      It's true that discussion focused on sex & violence (and DOOM was indeed a subject, but mainly for the latter), but I can imagine Origin preferred to avoid any negative controversy around their game at such time after having been criticized / attacked for the use of the pentagram (the page the second link in my above comment leads to says "When Ultima VIII was released in 1994 on Floppy Disk, a religious group sued the publishers because of the many pentagrams and other religious symbols in the game because they thought it to be Satanism. The group did not win, but Origin got pretty nervous and added some linges in the manual, in which it condems Satanism." There is a similar statement on the Ultima Codex site.).

      And just to complement my reply to RG above: the "Pagan" part is from the manual 'The Chronicle of Pagan' while the "pagan" definition and related text were inserted in the separate reference guide 'Pagan Playguide', both of which came with the game.

      Delete
    15. @Commenter, the confusion comes from the fact that the game contains more than one document that can be called "a manual". Personally, I thought about this one, formally called "The Chronicle of Pagan":

      https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Microsoft_DOS/Manual/formated/Ultima_8_-_Pagan_-_ORIGIN_Systems.pdf

      The reason I thought about this one is twofold: firstly, it is the one where the word "Pagan" is actually used. Secondly, it is where all the spell descriptions and runes are - and this is what matters when we think of a manual.

      This being said, the game shipped with a second document, called "Playguide", which contains the passage that you quoted. While it *is* what GOG calls "a manual", I didn't consider it such, and only skimmed it, since it contained no additional information - so, yes, I missed the "pagan" definition, since it didn't cross my mind to look there.

      Now, let us extend the argument: the story of Pagan as described in "Chronicle of Pagan" has some very clear parallel to early Christianity, only this time it is led by what seems to be an evil Guardian. The name of Pagans was given by Zealans to Guardian-worshippers in a sense that is consistent with the historic use of pagans as in "false cults" as used since Christian Roman times. I think we both agree on this.

      This being said, the whole ordeal suggests that Origin wanted to go all-in on a controversy, while EA (who, perhaps, authored the "playguide", which is very different in style to anything I've seen Origin produce) decided to tone things down and say "no, this is all about polytheism, and not a hypothetical scenario of Antichrist establishing state religion".

      Delete
    16. Just a couple of things:
      1. Nowadays series and films makes you think that in 1984 you were listening to things of 1984 and watching things of 1984 and playing things of that year, when no, actually you were listening and playing and watching lot of stuff from previous years, and that was not considered retro

      2. Satanic Panic was an 80s thing, true, but following 1. the early 90s had a lot of 80s hangover. Moreover, there was even another element that added to the small traces of still existing satanic panic: the rpg panic. Remember how media rags were bringing up things like "the kids liked rpgs!" when talking about school shootings or similar.

      Commentariat, correct me if terribly wrong.

      Delete
    17. @RG: Yes, it looks a bit like Origin was going for the 'provocation' / controversy angle (or at least initially not shying away from it) - from a contemporary article on the game:

      "Richard Garriott and his team spent many hours researching pagan rituals and the many myths surrounding demon worship. It shows too — Ultima VIII: Pagan contains some particularly impressive invocation sequences".

      See also an interview with Garriott a couple years later before the sequel was released and the editorial addition confirming the 'backtracking':

      "So I push people on the subjects they might have acquired, from issues like racism to things like "pentagrams are evil." [Because it featured a pentagram on the box, a few major retailers refused to carry Ultima VIII: Pagan, forcing Origin to alter the packaging. — ed]"

      Delete
    18. I'd say it's extremely obvious that Origin was going for controversy. There is no reason for the game box to show a huge pentagram, except to provoke people. The Guardian's hand is in the extro of Serpent Isle without a huge pentagram, so again the only reason why Pagan's intro has one is to provoke. Likewise, naming the game world "Pagan" is done to provoke.

      To be fair, it worked for DOOM a year earlier, so it's not a bad idea for a marketing stunt. But DOOM's demonic imagery seems part of the actual game experience, whereas in Pagan it looks more gratuitously tacked on to a fairly generic (if dystopic) fantasy setting.

      Regarding Garriot's interview, I note that Ultima 6 does a decent job pushing "racism is bad", but Pagan really does nothing to push "pentagrams are not evil".

      Gratuitous Satanic Imagery: The Game; with that, Origin aimed for "no such thing as bad publicity" and the market called their bluff. I'm not surprised, then, that they backtracked by adding disclaimers to the manual and by changing the box art.

      Perhaps without this stunt, they would have sold enough to publish the Lost Vale. Hard to tell, really.

      Delete
    19. @Radiant, I think you overestimate how much the sales would be *negatively* impacted by pentagrams and the like given how well Phantasmagoria performed the next year, or Diablo two years later.

      Delete
    20. That depends. Did Phantasmagoria have gratuitous symbols just to provoke people? Was Diablo banned from several major retailers? Or is there an important distinction there that you're overlooking?

      Delete
    21. @Radiant, I just went to Newspaper.com and went through 1990es archives. I have found no evidence that there were complaints specifically against Ultima, that it was ever banned, or that people referenced satanism anywhere around it. I can't find any info about any lawsuits against Origin/EA (even Wiki is silent on the subject) either.

      Therefore, I think that in order to keep this discussion factual, we need some better sources than movie-censorhip.com that didn't seem to give proper covers or explain what was released when.

      Delete
    22. PS. The closest I can find to this factoid is some newspaper ads from 1994, where the cover of Ultima 8 features a blank circle rather than a pentagram.

      Delete
  14. Some minor spoilers on combat:

    Zryrr pbzong whfg fhpxf naq gur Ningne arire trgf ernyyl tbbq ng vg. Lbh pna xvyy fbzr bs gur rnfl zbafgref yvxr Tubhyf, naq gung vf onfvpnyyl vg. Nalguvat ernyyl qnatrebhf jvyy xvyy lbh. V hfhnyyl whfg eha cnfg gurz. Vg jnf rira jbefr va gur cer-cngpu irefvba orpnhfr trggvat uvg pbhyq gevttre gur Ningne snyyvat qbja navzngvba naq ol gur gvzr lbh jrer hc ntnva lbh jbhyq or uvg ntnva, ybpxvat lbh va n pynffvpny fgha ybbc. Ybat grezf zntvp vf gur orfg pubvpr sbe pbzong, gubhtu gurer vf bayl bar havirefnyyl hfrshy pbzong fcryy, ohg gung bar vf fb birecbjrerq vg fbyirf rirel fvghngvba.

    Guvf orvat fnvq, gurer ner fbzr zntvpny jrncbaf gung vzcebir gur fvghngvba n ovg naq nyybj lbh gb jva ntnvafg zber qvssvphyg bccbaragf (fbzrgvzrf). Bar bs gur orggre barf pna or sbhaq ol gubebtuyl rkcybevat gur bhgfvqr gbja nern gb gur rnfg bs Graroenr (V oryvrir? Vg vf ybjre evtug va gur crefcrpgvir bs gur tnzr).

    ReplyDelete
  15. You don't have to actually fight anything to max your stats, you just have to go through the motions. I'd typically start every game swinging at the air to max my strength before starting my adventure.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, that's disturbing on a couple of different levels.

      Delete
    2. I think that it is less disturbing that killing a bunch of living things in order to raise your strength so that you could carry more. Sacrifice to the god of porters, so to say.

      Delete
    3. I'm sure Chet will get many such similar suggestions when he reaches Morrowind, in many years time!

      Delete
    4. I think far more sadistic is games making you kill 100s of rats and wild dogs to level up. What sadistic person goes around killing puppies to get stronger?

      Delete
    5. Yes, I'm reminded of the bear cave at the beginning of Skyrim, and maximising half of your skills through "practice" before you've even left.

      Delete
    6. I'm also not sure how this is so much -conceptually- different (as to be "disturbing on a couple of different levels") from some combat-free skill-building and grinding methods e.g. in the QfG games - a mechanism which you used, enjoyed and expressly lauded.

      Some of those were explicitly foreseen in the form of mini-games, but you could - and did - also just run around or climb repeatedly without a target to get anywhere (speaking geographically and in terms of advancing the story), just to increase stats.

      Will be interesting to see how you view it in QfG V once you get there - where I understand just swinging your weapon, without having to be in live combat, increases your skill.

      Delete
  16. I think that most of the shortcomings in this game come from Origin not finishing the game. When you look at the history of development and the EA thing, its painfully obvious that they intended to do so much more. But they were forced to ship it, so they cut a lot of stuff, tied up partial implementation, went into bug fixing / finishing mode, and shipped it.

    But the mouse movement is just trash :).

    I do kind of respect their attempt to make the game more modern and to appeal to the shifting trends in games and game design. Same with Ultima IX. It was pretty gutsy to go full 3D like they did. I don't know, I feel nostalgic for the era where games tried things, even if they failed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is the story ever: "The publisher gave the developers plenty of resources and time, but the the developers were just a bunch of untalented, lazy, malingerers who probably never should have been hired"?

      Delete
    2. @Addict, there will be stories like that in the future, but I don't know any at this point in time.

      Delete
    3. @Chet: a good deal of kickstarters fall under this scenario, unfortunately - including some by former Origin devs. Which does kinda make one think if publisher interference in the pre-kickstarter era was indeed as bad as it was painted to be.

      Delete
    4. There were plenty of rushed releases and buggy games in the early 90s. And a lot of that blame falls on the developer side. Lack of scope, fast moving technology. Proper project management was still a rarity.

      Delete
  17. It's a very goth-adjacent game, with all the skulls, pentagrams and such. Certainly had it's appeals to me as a kid.

    The flaws are often highlighted as issues with development, not least the lack of time they had to finish it, resulting a lot of things being cut. However, even with significantly more time, there are certain flaws that would have remained. They may have added extra areas, but the general style, movement, combat, etc. would have remained the same.

    As for the solo play, I never really minded it. I think after the events of Serpent Isle, and having played the Underworld games, I was quite content to be in a strange place with no companions to back me up. Not that I'm a big fan of having to manage a party at the best of times.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree that more development time probably wouldn't have changed the basic movement or combat. They might have fixed the jumping before release rather than in a later patch, though.

      You need to make the basics work well early, because they should influence how the rest of the game is designed. If X and Y are fun but Z isn't, you create more situations where X and Y can shine.

      Players sometimes underestimate how little time many developers spend playing their own game when they're under constant pressure to add mechanics and content. The QA department does play the game a lot, but that doesn’t help if their feedback is ignored.

      At that point, they didn't seem to have a good feedback loop between playtesting and design. They probably worked more iteratively through Ultima V, when Garriott was still directly involved in both design and programming.

      For comparison, id Software simplified the original concept for Doom when they realized that the added complexity would detract from what was fun. That's a good example of letting the fun parts guide the rest of the design.

      Delete
    2. The dev lead for U8 has admitted on record “QA told us the jumping sucked and we ignored them. Please understand we were all in our early 20s at the time.”

      Delete
    3. The "pre-jump patch" versions go up to 2.10 (in fact, I can't find anything earlier than that on Archive); the "jump patch" version is 2.12.

      To bring up version, use ctrl-v.

      Delete
  18. I think it's remarkable how recognizable these scenes still are after all this time. Few top-down/isometric games made from tiles and objects have scenes as dense and unique as those in U6/U7/U8. (Not counting games like Baldur's Gate, which have unique pre-rendered backgrounds for each area.)

    ReplyDelete
  19. I remember that a lot of locked doors in the city do have keys for them that can be found mostly by moving things like pot plants to find the key under. It’s not great really as without moving every single thing in the game you wouldn’t find them organically, and I think one key found this way is plot important.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Well, for all the glory of jumping in partially patched floppy version 2.10, I am stuck after the necromancer ceremony fails to go anywhere for no apparent reason (the screen keeps on shaking indefinitely).

    Unless I can restore from a recentish save, I think I'll abandon it, particularly given that I have a lot of real world stuff to do. So much for staying original.

    And, yes, I do own a GOG version.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Apparently this is a sound card problem. Disable the card, play through the scene, save the game, and then you can enable the sound again.

      Delete
    2. Thank you very much, it was indeed somehow a music card problem.

      Delete
  21. Just in case you didn't discover this yet: the patch added some more keyboard shortcuts, including one for the (b)edroll.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Pagan sure enjoys making fun of games that are better than Pagan.

    And VII already made fun of itself with a NAME JOB joke, and it was a better joke.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Fun fact: American newspaper ads from 1994 call Ultima 8 "Ultima VIII: Pagan", while Canadian newspaper ads use "Pagan: Ultima VIII" instead. Washington and Oregon ads also use Canadian naming convention for some reason.

    ReplyDelete

The CRPG Addict welcomes all comments about the material in this blog and other comments. COMMENTS ARE MODERATED, however, and will only appear once approved. Please do not resubmit a comment if you don't see it appear immediately.

If your comment does not appear, it is likely because one of the following rules violations:

1. DO NOT COMMENT ANONYMOUSLY. If you do not want to log in or cannot log in with a Google Account, choose the "Name/URL" option and type a name (you can leave the URL blank). If that doesn't work, use the "Anonymous" option but put your name of choice at the top of the entry. I will only make exceptions to this if your comment is so good that I don't want to lose it.

2. Do not link to any commercial entities, including Kickstarter campaigns, unless they're directly relevant to the material in the associated blog posting. (For instance, that GOG is selling the particular game I'm playing is relevant; that Steam is having a sale this week on other games is not.) This also includes user names that link to advertising.

3. Please avoid profanity and vulgar language. I don't want my blog flagged by too many filters. I will delete comments containing profanity on a case-by-case basis.

4. I appreciate if you use ROT13 for explicit spoilers for the current game and upcoming games. Please at least mention "ROT13" in the comment so we don't get a lot of replies saying "what is that gibberish?"

5. Comments on my blog are not a place for slurs against any race, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, or mental or physical disability. I will delete these on a case-by-case basis depending on my interpretation of what constitutes a "slur."

6. Do not attempt to doxx me or any other commenter.

7. If your comment points out a typo or mistake, I will gratefully fix it, but I won't post the comment.

Blogger has a way of "eating" comments, so I highly recommend that you copy your words to the clipboard before submitting, just in case.

I read all comments, no matter how old the entry. So do many of my subscribers. Reader comments on "old" games continue to supplement our understanding of them. As such, all comment threads on this blog are live and active unless I specifically turn them off. There is no such thing as "necro-posting" on this blog, and thus no need to use that term.