Monday, October 12, 2026

Pagan: In the Hall of the Mountain King

 
I wash my hands of this Avatar.
             
The Guardian has marooned the Avatar on the world of Pagan, which is dominated by four elemental titans, each with its own school of magic. The Avatar has learned that if he wants to escape, he's going to have to master the different magical systems: Necromancy, Tempestry, Theurgy, and Sorcery. He has managed to apprentice himself to the head (and perhaps only) Necromancer. He has sent me on a quest to learn Necromancy from his predecessors, now long-dead in the Catacombs. When I wrapped up the last session, I was exploring the Catacombs, trying to find these teachers. I have found plenty of corpses, but none that respond to the "Death Speak" spell.
      
As we begin, let's deal with two lingering questions from the last session:
   
1. What happens if you use the Key of the Caretaker on your entire reagent bag? Alas, the game just says, "something is not right." I expected DOSBox to crash.
 
2. Can you jump up onto the roof of that columbarium from the pedestal? Yes! There's nothing there, though. But at least we learned some new vocabulary. Loculi are the slots on the wall; columbaria are structures with lots of loculi. These days, they typically just hold urns.
        
At least the view is nice.
       
With that accomplished, I keep exploring:
     
  • Lots of ghouls and skeletons, at least one ghost.
     
Either this guy has killed a lot of people or the Pagans stopped using loculi at some point and just started tossing bodies into a pile.
       
  • An area where the Catacomb wall has crumbled away and the surrounding cave is intruding. As I enter, a chunk of concrete falls from the ceiling and crashes to the ground.
  • Plaques: SHOENROCK | HEGLAND HEGWOOD | JOHN OF GARLAND | TIS FAR TOO LATE FOR ME | HEAVRIN, ARCHITECT, LAID TO REST IN HIS OWN PLAN | DON'T LOOK NOW I TOLD YOU IT WAS MY ECHIDNAS | LESIFER BELOVED SISTER M.F.H. (?). I assume that like the gravestones, these are references to the design team or other in-jokes.
  • A locked tomb has a plaque next to it: THE BIRTHPLACE OF MORIENS (the first necromancer). I revoke my previous vow not to search all the skeletons in the area, but I don't find the key.
     
I'm going to be glad later that I noted this.
       
  • A tomb to KAYLITH, TREASURER. This one is unlocked. It has a couple of containers with obsidian pieces, junk, and (best of all) another bag.
  • Traps include sinkholes opening up into lava or acid or  something (recounted last time), gouts of flame that come out of the floor, and jets on the walls that shoot fireballs.
      
Nailed by a fireball. A sinkhole lies nearby.
      
  • Exploration is confounded by one-way gates.
  • A body labeled MASTER OF THE KEYS has a key. It does not open the Birthplace of Moriens but rather a locked chest protected by two fireball jets. There is nothing in this chest. 
      
A locked door is advertised as going to the Lower Catacombs. I don't know where to find the key, but it turns out that's not an issue. When I open the door to a particular mausoleum, I immediately fall through the floor to a cavern. A trio of barrels nearby has a ton of spell reagents, in particular the two I need for the "Death Speak" spell, just in case I didn't think to bring them. It's soon clear that I'm going to need a second reagent bag. Just when I thought I had enough bags.
       
About to fall.
       
As I explore the area, the ground shakes, rocks fall from the ceiling, fireballs shoot from the walls, and ghosts, skeletons, and ghouls periodically attack. At last, I find stairs leading upwards to a corpse on a platform. It is labeled "Necromancer." I thought I'd be casting "Death Speak" on random bones, but I guess the ancient necromancers are pretty well-labeled.
        
What a moron.
      
This one sits up when I cast "Death Speak." He says that I'll be visiting the other necromancers in succession. Each will teach me a spell that I need to reach the next one. This one teaches me "Mask of Death" (QAS CORP), which will make me appear dead to anyone who sees me.
   
It becomes clear a few minutes later why I'd want to do that. I run into a trio of demons. In battle, I'm unable to kill more than one of them. I could probably handle them with enough reloads and some luck, but as expected, when I cast "Mask of Death," they take no notice of me.
         
No one's going to confuse these guys with gargoyles.
        
Following my rightmost-wall exploration pattern, I'm soon killed by a lightning bolt that comes out of nowhere. On a reload, I go the other way and pick up a couple of backpacks full of reagents before meeting the second necromancer, Bentos. He teaches me "Rock Flesh" (REL SANCT YLEM), which requires wood and dirt.
    
This spell gets me past a corridor full of lightning bolts, although I note that nothing visual changes about the Avatar with either "Mask of Death" or "Rock Flesh."
   
Past a kith and some more ghouls is the third necromancer, who teaches me "Summon Dead" (KAL XEN CORP), which requires blood, bone, and wood. Fortunately, the game keeps throwing reagents at me. After I speak to this necromancer, I'm automatically teleported to the next area.
   
The pattern breaks at this point, as I don't need "Summon Dead" to reach the next necromancer, past some pillars that shoot lightning at regular intervals. This one teaches me "Grant Peace" (IN VAS CORP), which puts skeletons to rest permanently. This is timely, as one particular skeleton keeps menacing me while I try to talk to this necromancer, although as soon as I'm finished with the conversation, I'm teleported to a new cavern.
     
I know who I'm casting it on first.
       
This last necromancer, incidentally, tells me that he doesn't trust me and doubts my devotion to Lithos. This is a solid observation, as I'm not devoted to Lithos at all. Unfortunately, the game doesn't give me the option to say that. I can only say: "I am devoted, Necromancer." Dialogue options and role-playing aren't really things in this game.
      
This last cavern is large and square, with an area of grass and foliage in its center. A building in the middle of the grassy area has a large throne, but as I approach, I'm teleported away. 
     
I never discover what this key is for.
       
More caverns. Lava. More fireballs shooting inexplicably out of the walls and exploding nearby. Ghouls. Changelings. I find a suit of magic armor and yet another reagent bag, then a key with no lock anywhere nearby. This is getting annoying. I have to reload a couple of times when fireballs kill me. I have to jump from platform to platform. I'm teleported mid-jump to yet another new area. Here's another necromancer—only he's not the last, as he says I'll need to seek someone named Galious, who will teach me how to get an audience with Lithos.
        
Alcohol and a rock?
       
This unnamed necromancer, meanwhile, teaches me "Withstand Death" (VAS AN CORP), though he warns me that I'll only be able to cast it once, I guess in my entire life. He says I'll know when I need it. I mix it but naturally don't cast it.
   
Past more tremors, skeletons, chests of reagents, a kith, and a seeker, I find a building with a door. Galious is lying on a slab inside. He says that to reach Lithos, the Mountain King, I will need to find Stone Cove and cast "Create Golem" (IN ORT YLEM XEN) on a patch of mud. Only this golem will be able to open the door to Lithos's hall.
      
A nearby door takes me back to a familiar area: the Upper Catacombs, before I fell through the collapsing floor. I don't remember doors that I couldn't open, but I start poking around. It doesn't help that I took a four-week hiatus in the middle of this entry and can't remember anything about the geography of this area. I keep getting killed by exploding flaming skulls (how are you supposed to defend against these?) and crumbling floors that dump me into lava.
        
There are a lot of reagents here.
       
A door that I don't remember leads to an extremely long and windy set of caverns, with multiple places that appear to be dead ends until I jump over a river or maneuver around some rock. The game gets extremely finicky with movement in this area, and I have trouble going where I want to go. Amidst more skeletons, tremors, falling rocks, fireballs, and floor traps, a lever opens the way to a door.
    
The door takes me to a large cavern that ends at a lake. A small structure has a locked door, but more important is an enormous double-door right next to it. I find a patch of ground that looks like mud and cast "Create Golem." An earth golem appears. I have several commands; for now, I have it "Follow" me to the door and then "Open" the door.
      
With great power comes great grunts.
        
It would be nice if Lithos were just sitting on a throne on the other side of the door, but of course that's too easy. In the subsequent long and complicated series of caverns, I reload close to 50 times, dying from falling stones, fireballs, and falling into water because of either mistimed jumps or platforms that disappeared underneath me. The vaunted improvements conferred by the famous patch seem to disappear in this area; the Avatar dies repeatedly by simply misjudging distances and miscalculating the appearance and disappearance of stones. It doesn't help that the "jump" command (clicking with both mouse buttons) fails about half the time.
         
A second later, that platform will disappear, and I'll be in the drink.
       
I ultimately have to find a couple of keys to get through a couple of doors, but along the way:
    
  • A ruined building with two double-lanterns outside. What is powering these lanterns?
       
Did they run gas lines down here?
      
  • Multiple areas in which sections of platforms appear and disappear. 
  • A maze of invisible force fields in between pillars. They become visible, and damage the Avatar significantly, when he tries to walk through them. A note on a dead apprentice from times of yore indicates that the Avatar can throw the area's copious mushrooms between the pillars to test for force fields and thus find the path through the maze. I do this for a little while, but it turns out that the force fields, while harmful, do not actually stop the Avatar from going through the pillars. And since there's no obstacle to resting and healing as often as necessary, this area is just begging for a brute force solution. At its end, a chest offers a key and an orb that allows free passage through the fields in both this and another area.
     
A mushroom reveals a force field. Because it's organic, I guess.
       
  • Two skeletons belong to two previous apprentices, twins, named Bruce and Bryan. The texts are both identical, bemoaning that their "frail bones" have ensured they will never meet Lithos, both asking the finder to tell the other brother of his passing. 
  • A futhark room on a platform teleports me back to the beginning of the area.  
    
At last, I'm in Lithos's chamber. A long row of skeletons and ghouls stands at attention (kind of a waste of resources, in my opinion) in a long row leading up to a pair of stone obelisks with busts of Lithos on the top. The caverns rumble and his face appears out of stone before me.
       
Duh-duh-duh-duh-DUH-duh-duh, DUH-duh-duh, DUH-duh-duh . . .
            
"What human is this who comes before me?" The Avatar explains that Vividos is now the Necromancer, which Lithos already knew. Lithos demands that Lothian, the recently deceased Necromancer, must be interred: "The scent of her rotting flesh shall perfume my garden of delights." The Avatar asks to become Vividos's apprentice. "Then fall before me and serve your master!" Lithos rumbles; the screen shakes; the Avatar stumbles to the ground and gets back up again. 
    
Just as with the necromancers in the caverns, the player has no dialogue options, just automatic lines. This is a bit of a slap in the face to players of previous Ultimas. But the offensively scripted nature of Pagan becomes even clearer in what happens next. "Kneel before me, worm!" Lithos demands. I'm preparing myself to click on the dialogue option that of course will say "The Avatar kneels to no one" when, right in front of me, the Avatar #*&@ing does it! No input from me at all. He just kneels, bows, and refers to Lithos as "my lord."
   
Did the developers forget that the Avatar doesn't really want to be Vividos's apprentice? That he isn't even from this world? That he is, in fact, the savior of multiple worlds? That he's a savvy traveler of the multiverse? I should be able to have a peer-level discussion with Lithos, getting some insights into the true nature of Pagan and its gods, clarifying some elements of its official history. Instead, the game has me acting like the most pathetic supplicant to an unworthy god. At best, you could claim that the Avatar is just going through the motions long enough to get off this rock, but that isn't very Avatar-ish of him. Plus, you would think that if anyone would know about multidimensional travel, it would be the putative gods of this setting.
   
But instead of asking any of the sensible questions, the Avatar just meekly accepts his next task, to inter Lothian as per Vividos's instructions. Lithos's final words are: "Do not come before me again until you are the Necromancer!" "Or what?" I wanted to say. I even went back to the beginning of the room, then turned around and marched back to the obelisks. He didn't appear.
       
On the way out, I kill all his stupid servants.
      
The game lost me this session, first mechanically, then thematically. I am playing the rest of it in protest. If it weren't an Ultima game and I didn't just come off a month-long hiatus, we wouldn't even be talking. 
     
There is a teleportation pad near Lithos's hall, which suggests that I'm going to have to come back here again. But it reminds me of the teleportation system, and even though I have some areas of the catacombs left to explore (I think), I decide to warp out of this place. When the menu comes up, I choose to return to the Plateau and Mythran, mostly because I can't remember if I need to check in with him now and then.
         
I like to think that "Nowhere" just dumps the Avatar into a void.
        
I find Mythran on his first floor, and conversation with him reminds me that he has spells and scrolls for sale, which is good since I've been collecting money for no reason. He teaches me two Thaumaturgy spells, "Meteor Shower" and "Confusion Blast," both of which require reagents I have to buy from him. They don't sound like they're going to be necessary to solve puzzles, so I just note the necessary reagents for now.
      
He also sells me two Scrolls of Dispelling Magical Portals, which turns out to be serendipitous. When I warp back to the Palace, I decide to remind myself what's happening with Devon and his forthcoming execution. Devon is still in the dungeons, it turns out. While I'm reviewing screenshots, I come across Salkind's logbook of executions, which indicates that the "forbidden research" for which Bentic was executed is "secured in the dungeon evidence chamber."
   
I can see Bentic's Journal in a sealed room. I spend 15 minutes or so clicking around on the walls and looking around the dungeon for levers. I'm not going to pretend like I figured it out myself; I got frustrated and looked up a hint. The solution is to use one of Mythran's scrolls, which really ought to be called Reveal Secret Doors or something, not Dispelling Magical Portals. 
         
The "magical portal" is right in front of me.
          
Bentic was definitely into some dangerous stuff. He'd done some genetic genealogy and determined that Devon was the illegitimate son of the previous Tempest, Keldan, and having been born first had a better claim to the throne of Pagan than Lady Mordea. 
    
No sooner have I put down the book than three guards show up to arrest me. "Try to take me!" I shout, but the game doesn't actually let me fight. It just fades to black over the sound of clanking and crashing.
         
Is it because my name is "Thief"?
       
When we fade in again, I'm being escorted by the guards to the docks, where Lady Mordea, Salkind, Darion (captain of the guard), and the executioner Shaana are already arrayed in front of Devon. The guards relate that they have caught me stealing. "The block always welcomes another neck," Mordea gloats. Devon offers a sad goodbye.
   
I have the choice to say that "Devon is the rightful heir!" or "The tyrant Mordea has no birthright!" They seem essentially identical to me. I try the second, and Mordea kills me instantly with a lightning bolt. On a reload, I try the first option. Everyone is confused.
       
At least I got their attention.
        
Mordea orders the execution to proceed. "I have proof!" I shout. Before anyone can stop me, I explain what I found in the book. The resulting conversation is amusing, as Salkind confirms the contents by saying: "Mordea, I locked the book safely away!" and Mordea herself says, "Fool! Now the whole world knows the secret!" just before blasting Salkind into the sea.
      
I like how you can see the daggers Mordea is staring at Salkind even though the graphics aren't quite good enough to depict it.
       
Mordea again orders the execution, but Shaana grows a pair and refuses. Mordea blasts her to the ground. She then orders Darion to do it, but Darion also (surprisingly) puts honor first: "I cannot kill him, my lady. He is the Tempest." Soon, he's writhing on the docks. The three generic guards don't even get a chance to disobey; they're soon sprawled on the planks along with the Avatar.
   
Mordea starts casting a spell to kill Devon, but he somehow figures out his Tempest powers and blows her off the end of the dock, where a sea monster appears to swallow her. The Avatar groans and gets to his feet. Devon joyously turns to me and declares the end of Mordea's tyrannical rule. "I make it my duty to bring prosperity to all of Tenebrae," he says, before announcing that he's going to leave for a while. "I need time away from Tenebrae to contemplate all of the recent events." He casts a spell (he sure learned Tempestry fast), jumps off the end of the docks, and strides away on the water.
      
Could you teach me that spell before you go?
      
So that's a bit of a wreck. The city has no leader; its supposed new leader has gone on sabbatical, and almost all of its named citizens are dead in front of me. (Once again, the Avatar has saved a society mostly by depopulating it.) Well, maybe. I'm not sure how to interpret it, but both Shaana and Darion seem to groan when I double-click on their bodies. I can't access their inventories the way I can for the generic guards. Later, Shaana is in her house, though with no new dialogue.
         
Despite his previous claim, Devon is in the Palace when I visit (though he doesn't have much to say), and all of the guards now say that they serve him. I guess that's progress.
     
Good luck undoing all those beheadings.
         
I finish this long session by returning to Vividos, wondering why he doesn't have a damned teleporter pad. I tell him that I have met with Lithos. He gives me something called the Key of the Scion, which he says will get me through locked doors in the Catacombs as well as make Lothian's body ready for burial. It looks just like the Key of the Caretaker. That's not going to be confusing. I touch the key to Lothian's body, and the ground immediately consumes her. Lithos booms that he's pleased.
     
Why don't you just lick his boots, Avatar?
         
I'm ready to move on to the next school of magic, but Vividos and necromancy aren't done with me. The Necromancer names me his Scion and says that my next task is to make a pilgrimage to the birthplace of Moriens, the first Necromancer. I will access this place through the Upper Catacombs. Vividos says he saw something amazing on his own pilgrimage, but he won't tell me what it was. In any event, I guess we'll start the next session back in the catacombs again.
            
I can hear the Avatar saying, "Oh yes, my pilgrimage" in a perfectly flat tone.
       
Miscellaneous notes:
 
  • I started to face serious encumbrance issues this session. I dumped most of the flaming oil containers.    
  • There are times in which I inexplicably cannot pick up an item right next to me. 
        
What is that damned "X" all about?
       
  • How am I supposed to avoid floor traps? I can't seem to jump over them. 
  • As I save, load, sleep, and just walk along, the Guardian frequently speaks up to taunt me about what he's doing to Britannia while I'm stuck here. 
  • There are still a lot of locked doors in the Palace's dungeon. I wonder whether there's any way to open them. 
     
The sequence on the docks was fun (I thought Mordea's defeat would be the climax of the game), but I'm still raw about the Lithos encounter. As there doesn't seem to be any more character development, the plot is mostly linear, and the game clearly isn't going to give me any meaningful choices, I honestly feel as if I'd get as much from Pagan if I simply watched it. I'm not going to do that, but I will say that a better game would have inspired me to be creative and to avoid the obvious subtitle.
        
Time so far: 27 hours 
    
****
   
   
Next entry in this series
10/10/2026 

62 comments:

  1. I'm surprised you liked the Lady Mordea confrontation cutscene. I found it just as annoying and badly written as the Lithos one:
    -the player is railroaded with no agency, including an offscreen fight with three guards that I have a hard time believing the Avatar would lose
    -your only choice is between (as you pointed out) two functionally identical dialogue lines, yet only one is correct and the other kills you instantly
    -the whole thing resolves in the Avatar's favor only because Mordea's minion is an incompetent buffoon on the level of a bumbling sidekick in a children's tv show
    -even then, you don't get to actually fight Mordea because the humble fisherman Devon suddenly develops Mary Sue powers and saves the day - which is not necessarily a bad thing in vacuum, but it sure is an unsatisfying one in this case

    I suppose it's still not as infuriating as the Avatar bowing down to Lithos. This time he at least TRIES to do the right thing instead of capitulating to a horrible being he should be doing his best to oppose instead.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wouldn't say I LIKED it, for all the reasons you mention, but I at least found it amusing.

      Delete
    2. I probably should have said "funny" rather than "fun."

      Delete
    3. @Cubey, in this game Avatar is repeatedly blown to pieces by agents of justice for breaking the Pagan's laws. Fighting the guards would be an extremely unwise step in-game for him.

      Delete
    4. Ah, that makes sense. Anyway no justification for liking or disliking something is needed, I'm just sharing my personal experience of playing the game.

      @RandomGamer But the thing is, the Avatar DID diegetically fight the guards and lost, it was just done automatically and offscreen without player input. A better way to handle this would be to show the Avatar as confident that he can turn this around (because he found proof) so he lets the guards escort him to Mordea as he doesn't want to kill them - or maybe let you choose between going peacefully and fighting them (and possibly getting beaten for the latter).

      Or perhaps better yet, create a scenario that doesn't rely on getting railroaded, with either no options given to the player or every option but the "correct" one resulting in an immediate game over - but then that wouldn't be Ultima 8: Pagan anymore, would it?

      Delete
    5. @Cubey - wait, didn't Mordea kill the guards as witnesses to Avatar's allegation? I'm a bit confused here.

      Delete
    6. No, the two dialogue options are not functionally identical to me. The difference is quite important: one of them is merely negative, the other one proposes an alternative. I would naturally choose the latter.

      Delete
    7. @Cubey, I'm down with some nasty flu. I re-read the conversation thread this morning, and it appears that I misunderstood what you were talking about. You are right, Avatar has an option to start fighting guards off-screen, and, if he does choose it, he loses, but not fatally.

      I also agree with your point that it probably makes more sense to make the choice of fighting the guards fatal, rather than choosing a different line in dialogue with Mordea.

      This being said, the whole scene follows a bunch of chicles, which I believe were not too abused at that point in game development history.

      Delete
  2. Curiosity question I have had ever since I read Peer Gynt (some 10 years ago - I can't say I loved it but the piece made an impression on me):
    - How many people know where the music "In the Hall of the Mountain King" comes from? I think it's one of those musics everyone knows but few people know the source of.
    - How many people know/noticed there were lyrics in that music ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've actually performed this, a long time ago. The titular Mountain King is a troll, and the song is by trolls that want to kill the hero, chasing him as he escapes the mountain; the lyrics are mainly "kill the Christian".

      Fun fact: that means these trolls are... Pagan!

      Delete
    2. I know the music, yet every time I hear the title, I sing it to the tune of "In the Court of the Crimson King" instead!

      Delete
    3. I've seen it labelled with Peer Gynt often enough to know where it comes from, though I couldn't tell you anything what Peer Gynt is about. I don't care that much about the song either.

      Delete
    4. I went through a classic music phase in the 2000s, and I still have Peer Gynt along with the Holberg Suite on CD around here somewhere. I guess I've heard versions with a choir, but no, until now I didn't imagine they were singing actual words.

      Delete
    5. Oops, I said "classical music." Robert Greenberg would want me to say "concert music."

      Delete
    6. "How many people know/noticed there were lyrics in that music?" - that's a bit more complicated. The one with the lyrics is the earlier version, written for Ibsen's play. The famous version is the later one, which is part of a purely instrumental orchestral suite.

      Delete
    7. I didn't know it had lyrics. I, for some reason, thought that it came from an opera, but always believed it to be an instrumental piece because I never heard the lyrics and can't imagine anyone singing to the current version.

      Delete
    8. I am stunned to meet someone else who listened to that series!

      Delete
    9. I found a version with the Choir singing in English:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASVwCyLF2VA&list=RDASVwCyLF2VA&start_radio=1

      @Radiant: The OG "In the Halls of the Mountain King" was when Peer is captured after having, err, "seduced" the daughter of the Troll King. The Troll King then demands that he become a troll. Peer says "yes" to everything on the to-do list, until he doesn't - no spoiler.

      The flight music is this one - it is also pretty good as far as "flight" musics go.
      https://youtu.be/kRNJqjE1tVw?list=RDkRNJqjE1tVw&t=64

      I had to do some research, because while I knew that In The Halls of the Mountain Kings was before the encounter with the King, I did not know what music was used for the flight. Apparently, it was lost until the 80s, which I suppose explains why In The Halls would be used instead.

      Delete
    10. I'm an outlier here--I knew that it was from a play, used to have a record with the Peer Gynt suite, have also heard the version with words, and have read but not seen the play (which is very long and not what we usually think of Ibsen as being like). Peer Gynt is a real jerk, which may be appropriate for this diminished Avatar.

      Delete
    11. I think I first heard it as the opening theme on "Hunt the Wumpus" on the TI-99/4a. Definitely a popular one with games to use for underground themes.

      Delete
  3. I seem to remember this part running in the catacombs was the most boring in the entire game (rkprcg sbe gur svany qhatrba bs pbhefr).
    The other areas are more interesting in comparison, although if I remember correctly they're much shorter in content. I think you completed about 1/3 of the game by now

    ReplyDelete
  4. > A locked tomb has a plaque next to it: THE BIRTHPLACE OF MORIENS (the first necromancer). I'm going to be glad later that I noted this.

    Fun fact: In the unpatched version, that plaque just gives a vague hint. Ten year old me went near insane looking for the birthplace of Moriens.

    > Multiple areas in which sections of platforms appear and disappear.

    Now if you think this is bad; In the unpatched version, the platforms move.

    (I am honestly amazed than ten year old me managed to get past that - such is the willpower of a child i guess).

    > It looks just like the Key of the Caretaker. That's not going to be confusing.

    That definetively confused me, i thought back then than i needed it to cast some new spell or something, instead of just using it on doors.

    Between that and not knowing where the birthplace of moriens was that was the point where i got stuck until i got a guide.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I think you managed to uncover all of things devout Ultima players dislike about Pagan all in one setting (inconsistent platforming, lack of RP, problematic interface, etc., etc.). Um... congrats? It's been 4 years since I played it last (and 27 years since I played it the only other time), so I don't remember how to note/avoid floor traps anymore. Sorry!

    ReplyDelete
  6. While I understand your frustration with the Avatar acting out of character, I feel obligated to point out that Ultima games didn't even have dialog trees until Black Gate/Serpent Isle. And even in those games roleplay-through-dialog is relatively rare. The way you go off script in Ultimas is by doing things unprompted - and often unacknowledged - not by picking dialog choices.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ultima 5 does have yes/no questions that offer a roleplaying choice. It also gives you the option of fighting the guards when they come to arrest you.

      In addition, all Ultimas up to now (except possibly SI) are far less linear than U8. So it's really two distinct issues: (1) that the Avatar doesn't act like the Avatar, and (2) that the player doesn't have a choice.

      Delete
    2. BG is also fairly linear in intent - you can technically do things out of order, but they game largely doesn't acknowledge that.

      Delete
  7. I'm very not surprised that this game loses you thematically.

    I don't think the game explains at any point WHY mastering the four systems of magic helps you escape Pagan. It feels artificial. Nyfb, gheaf bhg lbh jba'g or yrneavat grzcrfgel naljnl.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Re: the damned X - from memory, that happens if you click and drag on an empty space... Which can happen a lot if you miss with the (seemingly) pixel perfect mouse cursor aiming required to tractor beam an object and drag it around *particularly* if it has dark pixels on its outline that blend into the ground texture...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And, sometimes, you are standing over the ítem you are trying to grab. it's Hard to see, but if you walk a bit you can notice a step down and then you can grab the ite.

      Delete
    2. As I understood it, "X" happened if you can't pick up an item due to incumbrance.

      Delete
  9. Huh? What? Ahhh? Pardon? Those sound so silly in that serious situation. Then that "Ooops!" just before he gets violently murdered is cherry on top of things.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I liked U8, but I really did like how nothing changes in Tenebrae after Devon's little coup - not even dialogue lines (except Devon's, and even then not all of them iirc).

    I found the exploration of the Catacombs really well-done - I really felt in danger.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Out of pure curiosity and no ill will intended. And since I notice you're a WARGAMING scribe. How much do you and other people who actually like U8 consider yourself to be a (C)RPG player? And fan of the Ultima series on top of this?

      Delete
    2. It's my second favourite genre. I grew up on TERA, Bard's Tale, Le Maître des Âmes and Ring of Zilfin. Later I played Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima VII (all of them), Ultima Underworld and probably some other games I forgot about. I played Ultima 8 after U7, though not having played the earlier Ultima I did not know what was Ultimaesque and what wasn't - but I have my RPG credentials in order :).

      I was also playing Ancient Art of War and Ancient Art of wart at Sea for as long as I can remember, plus a few other wargames (Siege for instance). and of course RTS & FPS What really made me "Wargame first, RPG second" was the discovery of Panzer General 3D and 5th Fleet; I think the latter was my first "hardcore" wargame and I loved it!

      Delete
  11. In design notes or interviews, Garriott said he wanted to teach the players that sometimes they have to do evil to accomplish good. But first, this is really _not_ a moral lesson and very unlike the Avatar; and second, the game neither shows you why the evil helps, nor gives you the chance to do otherwise. Either way, the "teaching" falls flat.

    This scenario is much like a tabletop DM making a Paladin "fall" by putting him in an artificial situation where he has no good options. (in 1E/2E tabletop D&D, a paladin loses his powers if he does an evil act; and there are stories of mean or childish DMs forcing a yes-or-no choice on a paladin where both options are evil. All of this is toned down in newer editions.)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as a lesson; the idea that if you only do the Good Guy thing every step of the way that things will always turn out for the best is IMO just as problematic. It always irks me when in shows and games the heroes do something grossly irresponsible and risk dooming everyone because "there must be a better way". Then of course through some manner of sheer contrivance the heroes knew nothing about, it just works out.

      The notion that there sometimes simply isn't a choice that saves everyone is an important one to nurture if these lessons are supposed to reflect on real life.

      (Shoutout to Divinity: Original Sin for its quest where lbh'er tvira n urnyvat fgbar naq unir gb pubbfr bar bs gjb fvpx crbcyr gb fnir jvgu vg. Guvf zveebef na rneyl dhrfg va gur bevtvany Qvivar Qvivavgl jurer gur fnzr guvat unccraf ohg vs lbh ybbx nebhaq lbh pna svaq n evghny gung yrgf lbh qhcyvpngr gur fgbar naq urny obgu cngvragf. Va Bevtvany Fva, vs lbh snss nebhaq gelvat gb svaq n jnl gb urny obgu cngvragf, gurl jvaq hc obgu qlvat orpnhfr lbh gbbx gbb ybat naq lbh trg lryyrq ng sbe vg.

      Also sidescroller action game Iji where, nsgre gur ebhgr sbe gur tbbq raqvat fgvyy erfhygvat va gur rarzl Vbfn qlvat - rira vs vg'f ng gur unaqf bs n grzcbenel nyyl vafgrnq bs gur cynlre - n cngpu nqqrq n gehr cnpvsvfg ebhgr jurer lbh'er noyr gb fcner rira Vbfn, juvpu gura yrnqf gb bar bs gur jbefg raqvatf, orpnhfr fur'f gur bar punenpgre jub ernyyl fubhyq abg unir orra nyybjrq gb fheivir.)

      Delete
    2. "You can't save everyone" (D:OS) is very different from "the end justifies the means" (Pagan), and both again are very different from "don't throw pearls before swine" (Iji). I maintain that TEJTM is not a _moral_ lesson.

      Aside from that, note how D:OS and Iji give you a _choice_ whereas Pagan does not. In interactive media, that makes a big difference in impact.

      Delete
    3. I disagree that they're as different as you're asserting; they're all variants on 'no, there must be a better way' where there actually isn't a better way and some compromise has to be made.

      However, I will concede the point on the importance of those giving you the choice vs Pagan's not.

      Delete
    4. I think rephrasing "You can't save everyone" as "choosing the lesser of two evils" makes the connection a little more obvious.

      The problem with "the ends justify the means" is that it's usually claimed by villains in situations where the ends do not actually justify the means.

      A better way to put it is: "can the ends ever justify the means?" And if you think about it, then yeah, when you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

      Delete
    5. It could have been interesting for an Ultima game to explore the tension between ends and means, and what a 'lesser of two evils' scenario costs a moral person like the Avatar. Ultima could have beaten The Witcher to the punch by a decade or more. But yeah, compare that to the dull phrasing, sparse characterisations, lack of choice, and lack of interiority here. Garriott can say what he likes, but the team clearly had neither the resources nor the intention to really explore this concept beyond a little surface level edginess.

      Delete
    6. @Radiant
      "This scenario is much like a tabletop DM making a Paladin "fall" by putting him in an artificial situation where he has no good options."

      Sort of like the questions at the beginning of Ultima IV that establish the origin of the avatar in the first place?

      Delete
    7. Yes, that's precisely the issue with TEJTM. And it's not just villains claiming that, but also storywriters (when they write a story where the ends do not actually justify the means). I am suggesting that that is the case here.

      While I appreciate the idea of choosing the lesser of two evils (and this can make for some great roleplaying!), this requires letting the player _choose_ something, not railroading him to a singular option.

      Delete
    8. “These things are the same at the level of storytelling tropes” and “these things are the same at the level of morality” are two very, very different claims. And the latter obviously has a much broader scope at the level of law, philosophy, etc.

      Delete
  12. Interesting.

    I guess the Lady Mordea plotline can be resolved as soon as Bentic's death scene is triggered and a diligent player can resolve that plotline almost by accident.

    You experienced an optional order of events, that rewards player exploration, but might not be the most satisfying in the dramatic timing of the story.

    Your mileage may vary of course: it could be it's because you accidentally stumbled through it, that you enjoyed that part.

    Some agency for the player.

    Once you get Key of the Scion, almost all the dungeon areas are available to you. Only one specific region is somewhat out of reach for you... but it's possible that you might figure out that one in an unconventional manner also.

    It's up to you if you do the pilgrimage immediately, or decide to explore all the available dungeons and find all the currently available waypoints.

    Naq lrnu, gung'f cerggl zhpu vg. V znqr n pnfhny bofreingvba va bar bs zl cerivbhf cbfgf, gung guvf tnzr ernyyl vf FUBEG!

    You haven't yet encountered what for me and many others is the coolest part of the game, so there's still something to look forward to.

    Still more lore and vibes to experience.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Joshua, I don't believe that the Mordea's legacy can be resolved earlier than when Chet did, because, AFAIR, Bentic's arrest is triggered by you completing the Necromancer subquest to begin with. I don't think there would be anything to uncover before that point.

      Delete
    2. This happened way sooner in his playthrough than in mine. I tend to encounter this moment in the plot after exploring all the world, after mastering at least two magic shcools. And that's why for me, it feels dramatically so odd that it happened now. If we imagine the game to be a 3 act game, then Lady Mordea's downfall would be such an act 2 finale moment.

      Delete
  13. In the unpatched version the sign reading "Birthplace of Moriens" originally said "Towards Fate do you Travel", leaving the Moriens thing an intrusive thought that you'd left something unfinished.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I was always more willing to accept the Avatar's seemingly odd actions compared to most other players I discussed this with on the internet. There are two key items for me: first, the Avatar wants to get out of Pagan ASAP, as he believes the Guardian is currently assaulting both Britannia and Earth. That's where his desperation is coming from. And he's willing to cross boundaries for that.

    Secondly, the key exposition NPC is Mythran, who very clearly tells you that you need to acquire the power of all four Titans to get out. Consequwwwently, the Avatar does whatever he has to, to get the Titans and their adherents share power with him, even if it is seemingly stupid. A trend that is going to continue of course. But I think that is a key element here: Mythran tells the Avatar what he has to do, and the Avatar does it.

    While, it's not great RPING as your character and there is a distinct lack of choices and consequences, I think the motivations and means of the Avatar were always mostly pre-determined by the Devs. You can't tell LB you do not want to become an Avatar. You can't really work together with Blackthorne. You can't conquer the Gargoyles, etc. So while U8 is assuredly a step back here, it is much lesser one that people often claim.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's the problem, isn't it? The Avatar turns from a paragon of virtue into a guy who is Just Following Orders. If anything, that's the opposite of what the Avatar stands for.

      And it's possible that Mythran is unreliable and/or using you to get more power for himself. Wouldn't be the first game where the "mentor" reveals himself as the bad guy with a "ha-hah! I lied!" Even within the Ultima series, he is hardly the most credible exposition guy.

      Delete
    2. The game would be much better if the Avatar would actually get to challenge the world of Pagan by standing for justice and kindness. It would be a very tough stand, but it would actually elevate the themes of the game better.

      The lore and worldbuilding part of the game is very enjoyable. I find myself liking that part of the game every time I play it. The general vibe is very tragic and melancholic. It is not without merit. But being the Avatar means to challenge the bleakness, not escaping from it.

      The next game goes 180 degrees for hopeful and optimistic, but then you get those silly scenes of people magically turned into good people, which is not satisfying either.

      I always like to praise Ultima 5 whenever I can, and this is the perfect moment to say that Ultima 5 balanced the themes of hope and despair the best. :)

      Delete
    3. Erik, I fully agree with you.

      In my book, Avatar is stuck in Pagan - which he needs to leave ASAP, and which he knows nothing about other than it's a "Guardian's world". In-game, he seeks Mythran, who then advises him to learn all schools of magic, starting with necromancy - it is Avatar who's in charge, and Mythran is merely answering his questions.

      In order to become a necromancer, Avatar needs to participate in a very voluntary human sacrifice of a terminally ill magician. Necromancy is not popular anymore, therefore the student's spot is open. So far, again, Avatar willingly joins, and all he does is pretty kosher as far as this world goes. In process, he also resolves the injustice of Mordea stealing the ritual dagger - which is, again, clearly not the best thing to do.

      In this chapter, again, there is nothing remotely evil. Avatar speaks with the literal god of this world (or, at least, a being he has every reason to believe to be such), which requires highly ritualistic obedience. Mordea is clearly in the wrong here, starting with the whole "stealing the birthright" situation, which, again, makes Avatar in the right.

      Not that Avatar killed anything - at least, not yet, but I haven't played past this point, so I don't know.

      I don't see where Avatar acts out of character.

      Delete
    4. @Radiant, it is Avatar who came to Mythran for advice, and acted accordingly. Having someone you actively sought out to give you bad advice because of their own hidden agenda is still a very rare plot point, largely because of practicality: how would you know how to mislead you if he didn't even know who you are or what your goal is?

      @Joshua, and why would Avatar want to challenge anyone at this point in the plot? Even in Lithos's case, in the early cutscene the person being executed actively WANTS to go join Lithos to meet his family - and him being thrown into the sea is a punishment. Yes, so far Mordea and Salkind were shown to be quite evil - but, well, taking them on directly would result in Avatar being instantly killed, so why even entertain that avenue of thought?

      It was Devon who asked you to look into the whole papers business, but wouldn't helping him be a canonically virtuous thing?

      Delete
    5. Regardless of the excuses you write for them, both human sacrifice and kneeling for an evil overlord (and calling him "my lord") are very out of character for the Avatar. And both more than a little evil.

      Delete
    6. I'm not talking about up to this point in the plot, I mean in the entire game.

      It's a matter of creating situations for the Avatar, where he could somehow subvert or be contrarian to the overall oppressive bleakness of the world.

      Even if he can't do anything about the big-scale systems, then at least have small-scale moments for the Avatar. And that is what Pagan is really lacking.

      You do have optional opportunities to be extra rude and impolite though.

      Delete
  15. AlphabeticalAnonymousOctober 12, 2026 at 4:26 PM

    > What is powering these lanterns?

    I assume they're powered by much the same source as Narnia's lamp-post lantern, which (when Lucy found it) had been shining steadily for a millennium. Speaking of which: despite the travesties that were the previous three Narnia movies, I find myself looking forward to the upcoming "Magician's Nephew." Is that likely to be a mistake?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I never watched any Narnia movie, but "the Magician's Nephew" was my least favorite one of the seven novels.

      Delete
  16. The patch seemed to address how the unpatched version worked, which is: destroy all the reagents in the bag.

    I screwed myself like this once by accidentally putting an entire stack rather than one something.

    Also, from the quest description it is clear you are not supposed to go to Lithos yet.

    Finally, the whole "magic portal" thing is where I rage quit, because this thing is just unfair: where is even that "magic portal" that I'm supposed to unlock?

    ReplyDelete
  17. It doesn't help that the "jump" command [...] fails about half the time.
    Be grateful. The unpatched version would've jumped out into space instead.

    I should be able to have a peer-level discussion with Lithos
    I took this to be an indication of the Avatar's humility and the unbridled arrogance of the Titans.

    As for the traps: run like hell. You indicated having trouble with this. Are you using a mouse pad?

    ReplyDelete
  18. It's interesting to me that you are coming with fresh eyes to this installment, hated for decades by Ultima aficionados, and you hate it for what seems to be all the same reasons that Ultima aficionados have hated it for decades.

    I'm not a big Ultima player myself but I do get a sense of pointlessness in the game from your writeups. Why are we doing these things, other than that we're playing a game and we finish games that we play?

    ReplyDelete
  19. I reload close to 50 times
    Now redo this after cranking down the speed of the dosbox to the level of a 486-33 or 486-66 to have a sneak experience on how frustrating this game was back in 1994.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Reflecting on the discussion here, I've concluded that the Avatar's reactions in U8 make a lot of sense as part of a larger plot arc.

    See, U4/5/6 are very idealistic. The Avatar is this paragon virtuous hero and everything works out for the best. And then it starts to go wrong. In U7 the Avatar is still the paragon, but nobody appreciates it (as Chet points out in his review, pretty much all NPCs in this game are jerks). SI gets worse, as the Avatar's best intentions end up killing almost everyone, plus he abandons his companions there to an uncertain fate.

    So by U8, the Avatar is not a starry-eyed hero any more, but a jaded veteran who has seen worlds go to hell. He has PTSD and likely partakes of the copious mushrooms shown in this game. Now his dialog responses make perfect sense. Yes Lithos, whatever you say. Yes I'll go murder some innocents, what does it even matter any more?

    All this sets up U9 as a grand redemption story: fcrpvsvpnyyl, gur ningne pbzzvgf evghny fhvpvqr gb gnxr qbja gur thneqvna. Now I grant that the writing is a bit ham-handed and it probably wasn't planned like this, but it's a strong arc overall.


    TLDR: U8 Avatar has PTSD, headcanon.

    ReplyDelete

The CRPG Addict welcomes all comments about the material in this blog and other comments. COMMENTS ARE MODERATED, however, and will only appear once approved. Please do not resubmit a comment if you don't see it appear immediately.

If your comment does not appear, it is likely because one of the following rules violations:

1. DO NOT COMMENT ANONYMOUSLY. If you do not want to log in or cannot log in with a Google Account, choose the "Name/URL" option and type a name (you can leave the URL blank). If that doesn't work, use the "Anonymous" option but put your name of choice at the top of the entry. I will only make exceptions to this if your comment is so good that I don't want to lose it.

2. Do not link to any commercial entities, including Kickstarter campaigns, unless they're directly relevant to the material in the associated blog posting. (For instance, that GOG is selling the particular game I'm playing is relevant; that Steam is having a sale this week on other games is not.) This also includes user names that link to advertising.

3. Please avoid profanity and vulgar language. I don't want my blog flagged by too many filters. I will delete comments containing profanity on a case-by-case basis.

4. I appreciate if you use ROT13 for explicit spoilers for the current game and upcoming games. Please at least mention "ROT13" in the comment so we don't get a lot of replies saying "what is that gibberish?"

5. Comments on my blog are not a place for slurs against any race, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, or mental or physical disability. I will delete these on a case-by-case basis depending on my interpretation of what constitutes a "slur."

6. Do not attempt to doxx me or any other commenter.

7. If your comment points out a typo or mistake, I will gratefully fix it, but I won't post the comment.

8. Do not link to abandonware web sites or pirate sites. You can mention a site without providing a link. You can also link to the Internet Archive.

Blogger has a way of "eating" comments, so I highly recommend that you copy your words to the clipboard before submitting, just in case.

I read all comments, no matter how old the entry. So do many of my subscribers. Reader comments on "old" games continue to supplement our understanding of them. As such, all comment threads on this blog are live and active unless I specifically turn them off. There is no such thing as "necro-posting" on this blog, and thus no need to use that term.