My recent breaking of my one-post-every-two-days streak (since mid-November) was not because of the difficulty of Chaos Strikes Back but because of a little side-trip to Frenchmen Street. I'll try to get some spelunking done today.
In the meantime, please take this with the affection with which I intend it.
****
The Sci-Fi Film Addict
Movie 58: The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
You all know how much I liked Star Wars. I'm really looking forward to this one, and I hope it's as good as the original. Certainly, the opening title crawl and music show that the creators kept intact some of the best features of its predecessor. I don't really understand the "Episode V" part, though. Where are the other three films?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to watching and blogging about this one.
25 Comments
HanMucho January 17, 2013 7:32 AM
Remember, guys: NO SPOILERS!
BradburyFan January 17, 2013, 7:55 AM
I said it with Star Wars and I'll say it again: these films are not science fiction.
MothmasMons January 17, 2013, 8:04 AM
Wow, I can't imagine what it must be like to watch this movie for the first time. I wish I could be you. It's so amazing.
SuPadreAEl January 17, 2013, 9:36 AM
Addict, no spoilers here, but I want to tell you to be especially alert towards the end of the film. There's a MAJOR plot twist and you're going to be totally amazed. You don't want to miss it!
MothmasMons January 17, 2013 9:38 AM
I can't wait to see his reaction to that.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:04 AM
Just in case you're wondering, the moment MothmasMons is talking about occurs towards the end of this big battle between two of the main characters in the Cloud City.
HanMucho January 17, 2013 10:15 AM
No spoilers!
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:20 AM
What? He doesn't even know what "Cloud City" is yet.
Elseuparees January 17, 2013 10:33 AM
Right. Watch carefully when there's this big wind and equipment starts flying through the air and this one guy gets knocked through a window.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:20 AM
If you hear a character shout, "No! That's not true! That's impossible!" and you didn't notice anything before that, you missed it.
DarthAnakin January 17, 2013 10:38 AM
Wow, I remember when I saw that the first time. It was amazing. I turned to my friend and said, "No way. Qnegu Inqre vf Yhxr'f sngure!"
HanMucho January 17, 2013 10:40 AM
Okay, guys, that's enough.
FoboBett January 17, 2013, 10:55 AM
@BradburyFan, what do you mean it's not sci-fi? It has space, lasers, and aliens. That's two of the Sci-Fi Film Addict's three criteria!
IkParafraseren January 17, 2013 11:07 AM
The big moment starts with, "Luke, I am...." and then...well, I won't spoil it for you.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 11:12 AM
But you should definitely get a strong paterfamilias vibe.
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 11:42 AM
What? Ditissypa already spoiled it.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 11:44 AM
Only if he speaks Latin.
LinusTiberius January 17, 2013 11:55 AM
The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is a much-debated subject. One common dividing line, however, is that science fiction is about scientific and technological advancements that could reasonably occur in the future, while fantasy exists only in the realm of imagination.
Much of Star Wars does deal with advanced technology, which seems to put it in the realm of science fiction. We may not have hyperdrives that allow for interstellar travel, but we can easily see manned spaceships that travel to other planets as a natural progression from traveling to the moon and sending unmanned probes to other planets in our solar system. Some of the technology in Star Wars is not even that far off; for example, scientists have already been able to create miniature lightsaber-like devices.
The existence of the Force, however, makes Star Wars seem more like fantasy than science fiction. The Force is a mystical energy field which gives Jedi seemingly magical powers, and the study of the Force is more like a religion than a science. The idea of midi-chlorians, microorganisms in the blood, attempts to provide a scientific explanation for the Force; but even midi-chlorians cannot explain how the Force can make bodies disappear or allow beings to become ghosts after death.
HanMucho January 17, 2013 12:07 AM
At least can we not spoil what we find out in the next movie?
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 12;09 AM
But knowing that spoiler is actually kind of important for this movie, because it helps him interpret a key scene.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 12:15 AM
Right. Twincest!
HanMucho January 17, 2013 12:23 AM
Jesus, guys.
Wow, I can't imagine what it must be like to watch this movie for the first time. I wish I could be you. It's so amazing.
SuPadreAEl January 17, 2013, 9:36 AM
Addict, no spoilers here, but I want to tell you to be especially alert towards the end of the film. There's a MAJOR plot twist and you're going to be totally amazed. You don't want to miss it!
MothmasMons January 17, 2013 9:38 AM
I can't wait to see his reaction to that.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:04 AM
Just in case you're wondering, the moment MothmasMons is talking about occurs towards the end of this big battle between two of the main characters in the Cloud City.
HanMucho January 17, 2013 10:15 AM
No spoilers!
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:20 AM
What? He doesn't even know what "Cloud City" is yet.
Elseuparees January 17, 2013 10:33 AM
Right. Watch carefully when there's this big wind and equipment starts flying through the air and this one guy gets knocked through a window.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 10:20 AM
If you hear a character shout, "No! That's not true! That's impossible!" and you didn't notice anything before that, you missed it.
DarthAnakin January 17, 2013 10:38 AM
Wow, I remember when I saw that the first time. It was amazing. I turned to my friend and said, "No way. Qnegu Inqre vf Yhxr'f sngure!"
HanMucho January 17, 2013 10:40 AM
Okay, guys, that's enough.
FoboBett January 17, 2013, 10:55 AM
@BradburyFan, what do you mean it's not sci-fi? It has space, lasers, and aliens. That's two of the Sci-Fi Film Addict's three criteria!
IkParafraseren January 17, 2013 11:07 AM
The big moment starts with, "Luke, I am...." and then...well, I won't spoil it for you.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 11:12 AM
But you should definitely get a strong paterfamilias vibe.
BradburyFan January 17, 2013, 11:25 AM
@FoboBett, because it's not about technology. It's fundamentally about magic. The technology doesn't even really make sense.
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 11:35 AM
No! That drives me crazy! The line is, "NO. I am your father," not "Luke, I am your father."
HanMucho January 17, 2013 11:40 AM
Guys!!!!!!!
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 11:35 AM
No! That drives me crazy! The line is, "NO. I am your father," not "Luke, I am your father."
HanMucho January 17, 2013 11:40 AM
Guys!!!!!!!
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 11:42 AM
What? Ditissypa already spoiled it.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 11:44 AM
Only if he speaks Latin.
LinusTiberius January 17, 2013 11:55 AM
The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is a much-debated subject. One common dividing line, however, is that science fiction is about scientific and technological advancements that could reasonably occur in the future, while fantasy exists only in the realm of imagination.
Much of Star Wars does deal with advanced technology, which seems to put it in the realm of science fiction. We may not have hyperdrives that allow for interstellar travel, but we can easily see manned spaceships that travel to other planets as a natural progression from traveling to the moon and sending unmanned probes to other planets in our solar system. Some of the technology in Star Wars is not even that far off; for example, scientists have already been able to create miniature lightsaber-like devices.
The existence of the Force, however, makes Star Wars seem more like fantasy than science fiction. The Force is a mystical energy field which gives Jedi seemingly magical powers, and the study of the Force is more like a religion than a science. The idea of midi-chlorians, microorganisms in the blood, attempts to provide a scientific explanation for the Force; but even midi-chlorians cannot explain how the Force can make bodies disappear or allow beings to become ghosts after death.
HanMucho January 17, 2013 12:07 AM
At least can we not spoil what we find out in the next movie?
MexiFriki January 17, 2013 12;09 AM
But knowing that spoiler is actually kind of important for this movie, because it helps him interpret a key scene.
Ditissypa January 17, 2013 12:15 AM
Right. Twincest!
HanMucho January 17, 2013 12:23 AM
Jesus, guys.
Leia K. January 22, 2013 8:41 AM
ReplyDeleteUmmm, first. I think.
Darth Giudeus January 22, 2013 10:55 AM
ReplyDeleteI especially liked your reference to the "Luke, I am..."/"No, I am..." discussion :P
Caron-the-Hutt January 22, 2013 17:14 PM
ReplyDeleteThanks for the hilarious call to order.
Heh. Nailed it.
ReplyDeleteClarco-3-PO:
ReplyDeleteI am not the droid you are looking for.
Yes, we really are way too civil towards you and each other, Chet :D
ZenicSolo:
ReplyDeleteOh man, Yoda is the best in this one. He's always so serious in the prequels. You're past that part already, right?
H...Helm Solo?
ReplyDeleteOkay, it seems that LinusTiberius thought that:
ReplyDelete- there is air in space
- light behaves like metal
- space travel requires no fuel
- entering atmosphere puts no stress upon shuttles at all
- a bunch of other equally absurd things
I see no other way anyone could claim there is even a modicum of science in Star Wars. Lucas himself said he started with "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" precisely to suggest a fairytale, so that scientists would leave him alone.
I love how a side-joke in a satirical posting can STILL generate strong opinions on this topic. For what it's worth, I agree with you. I don't really like sci-fi as such.
DeleteI know too much physics to accept faster than light travel as anything other than fantasy. And if it is fantasy anyway, there's no reason to pretend it progresses from science.
DeleteI don't claim to know enough physics to prove the FTL speeds are (im)possible, but I do know some physicists are working on making this fantasy possible.
DeleteFTL travel must be the most scientific thing in Star Wars XD
DeleteSound traveling in space, guys. And explosions with with smoke clouds. => Air in space.
I'm pretty sure no physicists are working on making that fantasy possible. ;)
Those aren't real explosions and real sound. Information from ship's sensors is used to project sounds and images of lasers blasts, engine roars and explosions in order to make Star Wars pilots feel like their battles are actually exciting. :))
DeleteYes.. give in to spoilers. Feel their power.
ReplyDeleteI, uh, I don't understand what went on here. Does that make me stupid?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, my wife gets out of the hospital today. That is a good thing! It also means that, close to death as she is, she's not so close I can't keep her at home with me where she belongs!
The Gadfly is happy :)
I was drawing a parallel between how well-meaning but overly-enthusiastic commenters often give away spoilers by couching it in terms of a different genre (and the most famous spoiler of all). Congratulations on having your wife at home again.
DeleteThere was one time on Trickster's blog when we needed to encode information without him knowing (for a contest) that the authour ciphered it, not in ROT13, and didn't tell Trickster the key.
DeleteThat reminds me of another movie: American Pie. To be more specific: "There was the one time? On Trickster's blog?" Hehehe.
DeleteYou thought there were too many spoilers about CSB?
ReplyDeleteIt's common knowledge that it's hard. Apart from that I can't recall anything in the comments that I would call anything but very minor spoilers.
Or is it just a general comment?
Spot on!
ReplyDeleteHeh. Cute.
ReplyDeleteSpoilers that crossed the line in my opinion:
ReplyDelete- Posting that there are illusionary walls everywhere. Don't you think it would be more fun for him to discover that himself, given how much he loves mapping?
- Posting that the starting location is in the "iddlemay of the ungeonday". That's a major spoiler, and really a buzzkill for him.
- Posting the location of equipment. "Don't miss the secret room with the +5 sword on level 8. I know you haven't even gotten there yet but I figured you'd want to know."
This comment is my own opinion of the type of spoiler that should not be posted. I'm not speaking for Chet, and if you feel this comment is directed at you, then you can be annoyed at me.
We come here to enjoy sharing in Chet's discovery experience. If you interfere with that discovery experience then you are being selfish, even if your intention was to be helpful.
Well, I'm of the opinion that some things are good to know beforehand. Not specific spoilers, of course, but general things so that you avoid playing half the game and then realizing you could have used the mouse cursor to check for illusionary walls, or that you can throw things through bars, for example. IOW, things that are more about the game mechanics, than about telling where the best items are.
DeleteMaybe I'm in the minority, but I like to know these things beforehand, especially if they are "undocumented design features".
Great example, Petrus! I completely agree that telling Chet that the mouse cursor can be used to check for illusionary walls is very helpful.
DeleteFurther variations of that example:
- I would say that telling him that there are frequent illusionary walls is a spoiler. Personally, I wouldn't post it, but I think that's arguable.
- Readers telling him that there are many different sections of the dungeon which are all connected via passages hidden by illusionary walls (which is what happened in the comments) is definitely a spoiler and it detracts from his enjoyment of discovering that on his own.
Some amount of blundering around as you learn new things is fun! Games like Zork were all about running around trying different things. Games like Nethack are all about dying gruesome and unheroic deaths with 99 characters so that the success of the 100th is truly heroic!
But being shepherded is never heroic.
Well, I figured that by the time I wrote my comment, Chet would already realized that CSB is nowhere near as linear and straightforward as Dungeon Master.
DeleteIf not, my apologies for spoiling.
Another good example comes from the recent CotAB playthrough:
Delete- "Don't miss the dust hidden in the first area!"
- "Yeah, that dust is really helpful for the battle with 50 beholders."
There are other borderline cases here. Wouldn't it be nicer to see chet struggle a bit with a game instead of spoon-feeding him strategy? If he asks for help or seems to be struggling, maybe then offer a bit of advice, but spoiling things means taking the opportunity away from Chet to have those "ah-hah" moments of discovery that make some of these games so enjoyable.
If you are about to play a dungeon crawler (and you have some previous experience with this kind of games), you KNOW there will be illusionary walls and secret doors. But reading beforehand that there are a lot of them is definitely a spoiler.
DeleteMany people say "I hope the next thing I am going to say is not a spoiler but blah blah blah" and drop the bomb anyway. Come on, if you don't know what might be a spoiler (or better yet, you don't know for certain what Chet considers a spoiler) then play it safe and don't tell anything.
I already thought when I read the comments to CSB post for the first time that the commenters were giving way too much unsolicited information, and that impression still holds after I ran through all the coments again.
You all had a valuable discussion here, but I hope you saw my follow-up comment below. Specifically: "I recognize that [spoiling] does come from enthusiasm, and I value that enthusiasm more than I value playing a game unspoiled. This posting wasn't meant to be criticism, and I don't want anyone to do anything differently."
DeleteYour blog is great, but your blog with the comments section is even better!
ReplyDeleteOn a somewhat related note, I had a friend outright spoil The 6th Sense twist before I had seen it, kinda made the whole movie a letdown, not to mention meant I couldn't enter into discussions about what point through the movie I had figured it out. Spoilers are bad, mmmkay.
That sucks. I vividly remember seeing The Sixth Sense for the first time. I was aware there was a twist ending but I didn't know what it was. I was looking for something throughout the film, and I STILL missed it until the last minute.
DeleteI know! Wasn't that awesome!
DeleteJust checking back every now and then by the way... I'm ashamed I'm not the enthusiastic CA reader I used to be.
I think once I played The Magic Candle, I peaked in your eyes.
DeleteI don't want to leave you with that impression. I started a new job a few months ago that can get pretty stressful, and my obsessive tendencies seem to be shifting away from games (in the past I have also obsessed over Transformers, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Star Wars, the age of arcades... I'm only 24, ok, and there was some pretty cool stuff to read about in all those subjects). You haven't peaked at all. I'm still a fan (just read a couple of your later posts, and I am waiting to hear more about CSB).
DeleteProbably, what got me was two games I couldn't drum up interest for: Hero Quest (sorry, Corey) and Drakken. Now my readership seems to be ok, except for all the other stuff on my mind and in the work-place that also demand my time.
I was just kidding. Happy to have you as a commenter no matter how often you can post.
DeleteIn 1981, Lori and I attended Denvention, the World Science Fiction Convention in Denver. My strongest memories are of the art show, which included two brilliant Phil Foglio comic strips.
ReplyDeleteOne was from the viewpoint of a guy saying that his friend always saw films first and insisted on spoiling them. The friend watches Empire Strikes Back. So they guy says, "No, not a word! Don't tell me!" The "friend" says, "Just four words." So the guy things, "Eh, four words, how can that hurt?" It does. :-)
The other strip showed the gigantic warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. "Top men!" In Foglio's cartoon, many of the crates have cartoon speech bubbles - "I hight Excalibur." "I'm the Ark of the Covenant." There was probably a Holy Grail (thus tying in to the Adventure Gamer's blog). The total effect was hilarious; I wish I could remember more of the lines a mere 31+ years later.
My other memory of the art show was discovering the watercolor work of Bradley W. Schenck. We still have two of his pieces on our living room wall. Brad is a terrific artist with an interest in Celtic art, and later became active in the game industry - http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,16125/.
I remember Phil Foglio. He did a lot of art work for Magic: The Gathering. Then he moved on to the less family-friendly XXXenophile. Anyway, good artist.
DeleteYou do know that Phil (and Katja) Foglio does Girl Genius know?
DeleteI am in dire need of a Transylvania Polygnostic University t-shirt.
DeleteRagnar: Great comic, I love it. I also can't wait for What's New with Phil and Dixie to make its triumphant return in Gygax magazine.
DeleteWhile I remember it. Phil Foglio is a friend of Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software. Phil did some drawings for the original Avernum trilogy.
Delete@ "Four words, what can it hurt?"
DeleteIn college, walking to see a classic movie, one of my "friends" shouts out, "Soylent green is people!" Then pauses: "You've all seen the movie, right?"
Um, no?
If Star Wars wouldn't count as SciFi, then I'm guessing a "SciFi Film Addict" could blow through his or her list in a rather short period of time.
ReplyDeleteYou're nuts. Star Wars is quite clearly fantasy. Yes, there are space ships and aliens, but they are not portrayed in any way that could be even remotely accurate scientifically. Science fiction relies on at least somewhat accurate science in it.
DeleteAnd there are hundreds upon hundreds of movies that are true science fiction, so it would most definitely NOT be a short list.
I'm not trying to argue that it -is- SciFi, but movies in general tend towards the fantastic. This is doubly true with SciFi movies. I'm just guessin' it would be a short list.
DeleteI wonder if Dune would be on that list?
DeleteIf we follow that rule ("science fiction relies on at least somewhat accurate science in it") I guess a lot of titles by Bradbury and other sci-fi masters shoudn't be called science-fiction either.
DeleteMaybe we can give extremely-future related spoilers? Like, say, you can kill Drizzt Do'Urden by surrounding him in four NPCs, dismissing them and then killing him with freely picked up Gnoll halberds with enough patience for all of his trademarked gear in Baldur's Gate nearly a decade from now? (It's like killing Lord British.. you've just -gots- ta do it.)
ReplyDeleteCaptain Piccard doesn't even make it an hour through Oblivion before he gets killed off!
DeleteDarth Vader is Luke's father!?
ReplyDeleteSo don't read the comments! We'd prob rather talk to each other about the game than talk to you anyway, to be honest. Feel free to browse the comments after you finish the game :)
ReplyDeleteIf this were my blog, I wouldn't be able to help reading the comments. I don't have that degree of self-control at all. Besides that, I would worry that there was an inappropriate or spammish comment that would remain there until I finally read and deleted it, weeks later.
DeleteI'd rather be spoiled than miss the comments.
DeleteAbsolutely! The comments are how we build community!
DeleteYeah. A friend matter-of-factly spoiled my wife that particular "just 4 words" moment months ago, because this friend couldn't imagine there could exist someone who hadn't seen the Star Wars movies.
ReplyDeleteThis friend still regrets it to this day :)
Ok, I think I've avoided spoiling games for you, except possibly nethack, largely by having never played a game older then 1990 (Ok, I played 1 session of Might and Magic, and Nethack dates back to this time, but not the version I play. Oh, wait, Dragon Quest was from the 80s, but I played the much easier Gameboy Colour version from the late 90s.)
ReplyDeleteI'll have to be more careful once you read the mid-90s and games that pass my playability test start coming out.
Alright, people are missing the point: Star Wars isn't science fiction for reasons entirely unrelated to its scientific accuracy. Being scientifically inaccurate makes it soft science fiction, sure, but it could still be science fiction. Ray Bradbury's The Sound of Thunder is very soft SF, but I don't think anyone would claim it since SF.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes it fantasy is the fact that you could replace just about every scene with something fantasy related and the movie would still make perfect sense: Lightsaber -> Sword. Jedi -> Wizard. X-Wing -> Horse. Mos Eisely Cantina? Dockside tavern.
This has already been addressed better then I can: http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2007/05/literature-of-ideas.html though I should note that I'm less picky then he is, since Cyberpunk and Steampunk, both very SF genres, are basically attempts to address present day issues by using futuristic or Victorian metaphors.
I found a whole series of parallels between Star Wars and other stories on the Internet. Here are a few fun ones regarding Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. Needless to say, spoliers to follow... :P
DeleteFist of all, ones that were apparently acknowledged by George Lucas himself in interviews:
Obi-Wan Kenobi => Gandalf
Darth Vader => The Witch-King of Angmar, leader of the Ringwraiths
As for the other parallels:
Emperor Palpatine => Sauron
Yoda and Gollum's appearance. Also both have strange speech patterns.
Luke's and Obi's lightsabers glow blue. => Gandalf's and Bilbo's/Frodo's sabers glow blue when orcs are near.
Darth Vader's lightsaber glows red. => The sword of the Balrog glows with red flames.
Obi-Wan digs Anakin's lightsaber out of an old wooden box, and gives it to Luke. => Bilbo digs his magic sword out of an old wooden box, and gives it to Frodo.
Darth Vader cuts off Luke's hand, which plunges into the abyss with Luke's lightsaber. => Gollum bites off Frodo's finger, which plunges into the abyss with the One Ring.
Yoda foretells the future, and Luke must decide whether to help his friends or not. Yoda warns that he's seen only one possible future. => Galadriel foretells the future, and Sam must decide whether to help his friends or not. Galadriel warns that she's seen only one possible future.
Darth Vader tries to convince Luke to join him, thereby bringing order to the galaxy. => Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to join him, thereby bringing order to Middle Earth.
Mysterious cloaked figure throws back hood to reveal that he's Obi-Wan. => Mysterious cloaked figure throws back hood to reveal that he's Gandalf.
Luke: "I shouldn't have come, I'm endangering the mission." (Because Darth Vader can sense him) => Glorfindel: "It is you, Frodo, and that which you bear that brings us into peril." (Because Sauron can sense the One Ring) For those of you who haven't read the book: Glorfindel is an Elf that helps Frodo and his friends evade the the Black Riders before reaching Rivendell. In the film he was (mostly) replaced by Arwen. He does appear very briefly in a couple of scenes.
Luke watches from across a chasm as his mentor Obi-Wan duels with Darth Vader using blue and red lightsabers. => Frodo watches from across a chasm as his mentor Gandalf duels with a Balrog using blue and red flaming magic swords.
Heroes are walking through a forest when they're surprised by ewoks, captured at spear-point, then taken to a village in the trees. => Heroes are walking through a forest when they're surprised by elves, captured at arrow-point, then taken to a village in the trees.
So basically you're saying that both writers drew from the Hero's Journey archetype. In fact, Star Wars did so explicitly; the writers and George Lucas were very familiar with Joseph Campbell's work.
DeleteHere's one: Luke must go to the center of the enemy's strength - mere meters from the Death Star's potent defenses - to destroy the object that endangers the entire galaxy. Frodo most go to the center of Mordor - surrounded by enemies - to destroy the object that endangers all of Middle Earth.
There are two ways to look at genre. You can see genre as describing the goal of the film: Action, Drama, Comedy. Alternatively, you can see it as about the setting/context: Westerns, War movies, Historical films. With both SciFi and Fantasy, you're really dealing with both possibilities.
DeleteIn terms of the 'goal' the genre, I think you have an argument. Fantasy and SciFi have different goals. Fantasy is just about pushing the boundaries and awakening the imagination. SciFi is slightly more specific. In some ways, from this approach, I'd almost consider SciFi a sub-genre of Fantasy. It's basically a Fantasy that directs its energies towards technology and the impact it can have.
Even if you don't see it as a sub-genre, the lines are incredibly blurry here. Virtually any SciFi with psychics, for example, pushes the line from one direction. Also, it's a typical trope in Fantasy for magic to essentially be scientific, in its own way. Still, at least I see the argument here.
However, if you look at genre as about setting, Star Wars is unambiguously SciFi. Robots? Space ships? FTL travel? Lots of different aliens? Even the magic of this universe is somewhere between a scientific phenomenon (especially post-midichlorians) and a secular philosophy.
I'd also point out that, while fantasy tropes feature heavily, the films were based on a series of different sources: WW2 films, Japanese samurai movies, and, not least, old SciFi serials like Flash Gordon. When it comes to the former definition of genre, the line is blurry, and I'm not sure you can obviously point to Star Wars and say it's on one side. I think it has elements of SciFi and Fantasy, but that it clearly has a SciFi setting.
SF is a far wider genre than Fantasy. Pick up a random Fantasy book and there is a 99% chance it takes place in some invented world where people have exotic names, and there is war and fighting involved. Pick up a random SF book and there is no telling beforehand what it will be about.
DeleteFantasy does not really push many boundaries; SF does that to a much greater degree. Fantasy is "safe". SF is not.
But I like both.
@Petrus
DeleteMaybe it's because we're RPGamers here, but I'd like to point out that Fantasy is a much bigger genre than Epic Fantasy. Think about 'Alice in Wonderland,' Brothers Grimm, 'James and the Giant Peach,' Spirited Away (the anime), or the Borrowers. Also, anything that is supernatural horror is arguable. I'd point out that the World Fantasy Award is a bust of HP Lovecraft, for example.
@Corey Cole, you're absolutely right. I've read, some time ago, an analysis of the original Star Wars story and lore and it showed quite clearly how Joseph Campbell's work helped George Lucas focus his story; apparently George Lucas already had a working script for Star Wars, but it was his discovery of The Hero with a Thousand Faces that truly shaped Star Wars into what eventually was put on film.
DeleteAs for Tolkien, I don't know any specifics, but it would be safe to assume that, as a scholar, he was aware of Campbell's work and if that wasn't a direct influence on Lord of the Rings, someone with the sort of keen interest in mythology that Tolkien had would probably come up with a very similar archetypal framework for his story.
killias2: That is part of the reason some parts of the Science Fiction community refuse to use the term SciFi, viewing it as a hollywood affection that has done untold harm to their genre. They use SF or Science Fiction, and define the genre by the ideas present in it, rather then the trappings it has. (Thus, Neromancer is science fiction, even though it has no spaceships, and so is the better Steampunk, or even Cryptonomicon which is WWII through the modern day)
Delete@Giuseppe: Lord of the Rings predates The Man With A Thousand Faces. But the latter drew from The Golden Bough by Sir James Frazier. Tolkien undoubtedly encountered, and was probably influenced by, Frazier's work. So as you say, Tolkien was very familiar with the heroic journey archetypes regardless of his sources.
DeleteBy the way, I'm just curious - Can other readers get past the Captcha here without using a magnifying glass, modifying the brightness of their monitor, and still having to guess at it? The numeric block to me is all but unreadable.
When I can't read the number I just write "blurred", and it usually works...
DeleteI sometimes have trouble reading the numeric block, but I can't say it's been a problem. I think I probably get it right nine times out of then, and when I don't I just hit the 'recaptcha' button.
DeleteRegarding The Golden Bough, I wasn't aware of this book. Now that I've looked into it, it appears to be quite a seminal work. Thanks for bringing it up and piquing my interest. Also, I suspect Chet will be pleased to learn that his blog also has a sort of educational aspect that goes beyond gaming :D
BTW, I just tried PetrusOctavianus's tip and I typed blurred instead of the number. It worked.
DeleteI guess that's how some comment spam keeps getting through. What a stupid loophole.
DeleteI also have to ask: Was I the inspiration for LinusTiberius?
ReplyDeleteI cannot stop laughing at this...
DeleteI've missed something. Is there someone in the community already named that?
DeleteThink about the origin or type of name ;)
Deletelol, then look up.
DeleteSurely you should've been the inspiration for a "Modronerd". :P
DeleteAh PetrusOctavianus.
DeleteI don't recognize myself in LinusTiberius. MexiFriki's first line OTOH is something I've already said.
DeleteOh, and wasn't Tiberius Captain's Kirk's middle name?
Yes, except in one very early episode before they had nailed things down, and his best friend makes him a gravestone with another initial on it.
DeleteYeah, it was in the second pilot - Where No Man Has Gone Before. The gravestone read "James R. Kirk".
DeleteI didn't actually try to copy anyone's style; I just derived some of the names from yours. Linus was the Pope after Petrus; Tiberius was the emperor after Octavianus.
DeleteI did allow Canageek's namesake to deliver the actual spoiler, though. Not that I meant anything by that.
On the "James R. Kirk," it was meant to be an insult. JRK="Jerk."
DeleteHey, everyone. I'll respond to individual comments when I have more time, but for now, let me just say that I meant this as a lighthearted poke at how my commenters often accidentally spoil things with their enthusiasm. I recognize that it does come from enthusiasm, and I value that enthusiasm more than I value playing a game unspoiled. This posting wasn't meant to be criticism, and I don't want anyone to do anything differently.
ReplyDeleteJust wait until you hit the late nineties, where the spoilers really will ruin parts of the games for you. Planescape: Torment comes to mind as a game that really benefits from going in blind and enjoying the gradual reveal.
DeleteAt this point, the spoilers are more likely to be solutions to puzzles, not spoilers of major plot points.
For anyone who has played it (and I'm sure most here have), imagine playing Fallout 1 for the first time, only to have someone spoil the ending halfway through the game.
You just spoiled that it has an interesting ending.
DeleteThe entire game is interesting, but I won't say any more!
DeleteIs Fallout 1 the game where at the end of it the little kid gets attacked by a bee and dies because he is allergic to the poison? Or maybe I am confusing it with that other game where the main character is dead but he does not know it... Mmmm...
Delete;P
Fallout 1 and 2 brings a lot of great memories. Truly awesome games. And I agree with Raifield, the less one knows about Planescape: Torment, the better.
"Is Fallout 1 the game where at the end of it the little kid gets attacked by a bee and dies because he is allergic to the poison?"
DeleteNo, that was the 1991 film, My Girl and the less said about that film, the better.
I can't resist spoiling something;
DeleteSnape kills Trinity with Rosebud!
The faith in The CRPG Addict is strong: http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061180721&postcount=20
ReplyDeleteThat was nice of them, but I have no idea what this gamem is. It's not anything I've reached yet.
DeleteSpoiler? How is that a spoiler? You could figure that out from the first movie. After all Vader is Dutch for Father. Who doesn't at least know a little Dutch? No, the real spoiler is that Chewbacca is actually Han's wife.
ReplyDelete