tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post932442241155005940..comments2024-03-28T15:25:30.216-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game 219: Dungeons and Dragons (1981), AKA "Heathkit DND"CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-14809524248916411882018-06-14T11:08:16.924-04:002018-06-14T11:08:16.924-04:00I'm really curious about the family tree here....I'm really curious about the family tree here. There's a detail about Telengard that I don't see mentioned anywhere; the earliest version in the wild is for the Commodore PET 32KB, and is copyrighted 1981, same as Heathkit DND. The graphics are a lot more primitive than the DOS Telengard. Lawrence also claims that his first version of Telengard was in 1978 and only used 8KB, but this is hard to verify.<br /><br />I downloaded the BASIC source code from the "comprehensive" website for analysis. Even if it isn't a true original, I'd guess it's closer to the Lawrence original than any microcomputer version. The comments in the code date 1976-1978, and the biggest 1978 changes are converting text to lowercase. Some things that I noted:<br /><br />There is an Orb to collect, presumably the end goal of the game.<br /><br />There is an Excelsior transporter.<br /><br />Names are not abbreviated. We have "Elven Cloak +" rather than "ELVN CLK+" as in Telengard.<br /><br />"Another {IF LV<4|not so} {Warrior|Cleric|Magicion} bites the dust"<br /><br />"You have found a circular stairway"<br />"Do you want to {IF LV<>1|go (U)p, } go down, or stay on the (S)ame level:"<br />No mention of LIGHT above.<br /><br />It doesn't look like there's any sort of realtime element. You can skip a turn with a command for it.<br /><br />Helpfile prints this:<br />0 OR S stay and wait a turn<br />1 OR W Move north<br />2 OR D Move east<br />3 OR X Move south<br />4 OR A Move west<br />C Cast spell<br />R Drop the orb (if you have it)<br /> Lists stats and equipment<br /> List experience,gold,hits and spells<br /> Replots current position<br />K Fall on your sword<br />Q Temporarily quit expedition<br /> (It will be restarted where you left)<br />U Utter a pray for escape to the Nameless God.<br />H Types this list<br /><br />These spells are listed. They don't seem to 100% match any known microcomputer version:<br />"Magic missle",Charm,Shield,Sleep,"Protection from evil",Light<br />"Phantasmal forces",Web,"Lightning bolt"<br />Strength,Levitate,Invisibility<br />Fireball,Confuse,Pass-wall<br />"Hold monster",Fear,"Continual light"<br />Teleport,"Power word kill","Prismatic wall"<br />"Time stop","Wall of fire","Summon demon"<br />"Protection from evil",Light,"Cure light wounds","Turn undead"<br />"Detect traps",Silence,Pray,"Hold monster"<br />"Cure serious wounds","Dispell undead","Continual light",Plague<br />"Holy word","Finger of death","Blade barrior","Raise dead"<br /><br />There is no option to select a dungeon to explore. However, the file "VMS dnd" contains two other versions, and both disk image contain the strings "TELENGARD" "SVHENK'S LAIR" "LAMORTE" and "WARREN". The second disk image also contains this readable string:<br />"You may now choose the Dungeon for your adventure.The choices are (1) Telengard, (2) Svhenk's Lair, (3) LamorteAnswer 1,2 or 3. If you answer otherwise, I will choose."<br /><br />That last thing is kind of a big wrench. But it's my working theory that this order of events happened:<br />1976: Lawrence creates his first version of DND, based heavily on the PLATO dnd.<br />1976-?: Various mainframe branches of DND<br />1978: Lawrence creates an 8KB version of DND for the Commodore PET. It may or may not have been called Telengard. This version is realtime and unwinnable, and was never published.<br />1981: Heathkit DND is based on PET DND '78, adding a winning condition and some new scenarios.<br />1981: Telengard for 32KB PETs is published by Avalon Hill.<br />1984: Knight/Hanlin versions of DND are based on some mainframe branch, skipping the PET/Telengard line.ikantspelwurdznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-59994865580625712322016-04-23T00:39:01.109-04:002016-04-23T00:39:01.109-04:00Yes, if you read the rest of the article that shan...Yes, if you read the rest of the article that shankao posted (beyond just the Bill Gates note) then you'll see reference to the "scruffier, more independent-minded hacker culture" that Bill Gates was addressing when he referred to all the hobbyists who were using but not paying for his software. What is most interesting is that Bill Gates was a member of that culture until he (like Lawrence) wanted to profit from software development and then he was suddenly chastising his own community. I'm not taking sides, merely being a historian.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29074155252763638902016-04-21T19:39:29.217-04:002016-04-21T19:39:29.217-04:00Well, *I* feel it's important to know the actu...Well, *I* feel it's important to know the actual history of what happened and give credits where it's due.<br /><br />"Victors might write history but those who outlive the victors gets to rewrite it." - Nobody EverKenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-61518010768211471652016-04-21T12:32:03.262-04:002016-04-21T12:32:03.262-04:00Yes! That drove me crazy when I was trying to comp...Yes! That drove me crazy when I was trying to compile my master list.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-20212144875384294602016-04-21T12:11:01.416-04:002016-04-21T12:11:01.416-04:00This reminded me a bit to the Bill Gates' open...This reminded me a bit to the Bill Gates' open letter: http://www.filfre.net/2015/12/a-pirates-life-for-me-part-1-dont-copy-that-floppy/shankaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194425920878224732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88354488483545657812016-04-21T12:06:48.312-04:002016-04-21T12:06:48.312-04:00Also, I have encountered multiple times that the d...Also, I have encountered multiple times that the date displayed in the main page is the one for the American version. You have to go to the "releases" page to see the earlier foreign date.<br />This happens often with Japanese games that, even for the same platform, didn't get an American release until years later.shankaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194425920878224732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-43644813369940785732016-04-21T09:06:13.540-04:002016-04-21T09:06:13.540-04:00I don't disagree that the movement existed, on...I don't disagree that the movement existed, only that it hadn't really started in 1976 and the authors of the original DND weren't a part of it. Thus, I don't think Lawrence's actions can be excused as being part of some kind of social norm. CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-17812563309500408172016-04-21T08:22:23.691-04:002016-04-21T08:22:23.691-04:00Sorry for the self-replies. I finally realized th...Sorry for the self-replies. I finally realized the version in my comment above is the "Bill Knight" DOS version reviewed as crpgaddict #180. According to Jim Burrows, then, the history is Jim and others at DEC had a copy of Dan Lawrence's BASIC dnd. They rewrote this in Pascal, added additional features and dungeons (re-using also some dungeons from the original). Then DEC got worried about legalities. (More on that here : https://facebook.com/notes/jim-burrows/the-dnd-ban-at-dec/10150195644192850; apparently the actual worry was about a verbal NDA regarding the source code.) Jim wrote a memo asking everyone to delete DND from DEC machines and not to distribute it. Many folks misconstrued this as aggression from Dan's side, but it seems to have been worries on Jim's side. Bill Knight obtained a copy of the pascal sources which survived destruction, and used it to build binaries for MSDOS computers. He kept up maintainance of this for several years, making some bugfixes and such along the way. He sold this as shareware, without mention of the code origins. dzdthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546063512375699302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-55631029611969442602016-04-21T06:56:13.288-04:002016-04-21T06:56:13.288-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.dzdthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546063512375699302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-76401234959452999292016-04-21T06:12:09.420-04:002016-04-21T06:12:09.420-04:00About this dnd version, see http://www.dizzydragon...About this dnd version, see http://www.dizzydragon.net/dnd.lunaticsworld.com/dnd_ban_thread.txt :<br /><br />"The versions here at DEC added a new dungeon--the Warren--and a new algorythm for combat, and then reimplimented it in Pascal (largely without access to the original sources). In the Pascal version we added all sorts of nifty new things.<br /><br />Somehow someone got a copy of the Pascal version without either the permission of the authors of that version, or so far as I know with the authors of the original software and was providing it as "pay as you go software" if you like it you send them money for it. Pretty neat since they didn't write the code. I know, I wrote large sections of the Pascal version, which was done solely by DECkies." (Jim Burrows, 2-Sep-1986)dzdthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546063512375699302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-83097341522139416992016-04-21T04:38:11.724-04:002016-04-21T04:38:11.724-04:00Did you ever connect with Mike Stephenson (the Net...Did you ever connect with Mike Stephenson (the Nethack license holder)? He could speak to the overlap between the "Free Software Movement" (which became Open Source) and the genesis of Nethack. Nethack's 1989 license was based on Richard Stallman's 1988 GNU Bison license. Stallman is the founder of the free software movement as you probably know.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12810877470595770782016-04-21T04:16:09.377-04:002016-04-21T04:16:09.377-04:00I meant that no one can prove 100% that he plagiar...I meant that no one can prove 100% that he plagiarized, even though I personally believe he did. As regards "that is not really the point", I meant that there were many people all playing each other's games and developing their own during that time. Due to that, there was quite a bit of plagiarizing and building off each other's work to create an even better version throughout that period. It was sort of an iterative group think process which is why I followed that up with the rest of my comment. Even though that line of games is not fantastic, they sowed the seeds in many developer's minds for other bigger and better things!Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-6083661145059168442016-04-21T00:42:28.645-04:002016-04-21T00:42:28.645-04:00A seemingly playable version of the DEC Pascal DND...A seemingly playable version of the DEC Pascal DND compiled for an early MSDOS computer is at http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/rainbow/msdos/games/dnd.lzhdzdthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06546063512375699302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88023704336172737882016-04-20T16:47:38.502-04:002016-04-20T16:47:38.502-04:00Agreed. I find documentation of this nature on th...Agreed. I find documentation of this nature on the history of CRPG's to be incredibly interesting.Vonotarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-56100406588108159502016-04-20T13:33:51.158-04:002016-04-20T13:33:51.158-04:00VK: "What are those reasons?" You might ...VK: "What are those reasons?" You might be right. It just seems to me that if you found that someone had copied your work, you'd be more likely to fight him than to say, "Wow, he made some good additions. I'll copy HIS version!" But this whole history is so tangled I suppose anything could have happened.<br /><br />"That was enough sleuthing. I don't even care about these games :)" That's kind of how I felt writing this post. I don't know why I've invested so much ink on a minor, stunted branch of RPGs that was obsolete even in 1981.<br /><br />Wrote to Mr. Wild, but not necessarily expecting a reply.<br />CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31915505165133530852016-04-20T13:29:45.449-04:002016-04-20T13:29:45.449-04:00Fair enough. I sometimes forget that release year ...Fair enough. I sometimes forget that release year is associated with each individual version and not the entirety of the game. Couldn't they just have an "other" category?CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12571338411822703082016-04-20T13:28:13.103-04:002016-04-20T13:28:13.103-04:00"No one can prove that Lawrence plagiarized t..."No one can prove that Lawrence plagiarized the earlier manifestations of this type of game, but ultimately that is not really the point." I'm not sure I agree with either of these clauses. The article on DND on Cyber1 gives the impression that the creators of the original game really did care that Lawrence made copies of it off PLATO and were angry about it. As to whether it can be proven, I guess not to 100%, but if Lawrence's DND looks exactly like the PLATO DND, I don't see what other conclusions that you can draw.<br /><br />But I agree with the overall spirit of your comment, and particularly that selling the game was Lawrence's biggest sin. The funny thing is that he is joined in that by at least three other developers that we know of. And it's not even that good a game! I'm not sure why this particular series so lent itself to plagiarism and profiteering.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7701228530495061512016-04-20T13:24:38.891-04:002016-04-20T13:24:38.891-04:00Yeah, I wasn't even callous about it. I took a...Yeah, I wasn't even callous about it. I took a sincere look at each one, but none of them were RPGs under my definitions. Thanks for the note on the typo.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-3263874275800931352016-04-20T09:36:44.459-04:002016-04-20T09:36:44.459-04:00Wow, I see you have gone an rejected a great swath...Wow, I see you have gone an rejected a great swathe of the 1985 games. Looking at the games left I can see you rejecting most of them too, only Swords & Sorcery looks genuinely like an RPG out of the ones left, and Totally Smashed is a typo, it's a 1995 game. I guess you still have to get a 'Y' in the win column for Wizard's Crown, but 1985 could be over rather quickly.Mikrakovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02359946565373258773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-62018915812474845472016-04-20T06:57:36.953-04:002016-04-20T06:57:36.953-04:00Chet, you're probably right that the commentar...Chet, you're probably right that the commentary on that page is not very reliable. Still, the collection of old programs is interesting. I tried to see what I could find out about the old DND versions given there.<br /><br />TL;DR: They represent a DEC branch of the game, none are "original Lawrence" versions.<br /><br />This Facebook post from Jim Burrows, the author of the DND ban memo, was quite helpful:<br />https://www.facebook.com/notes/jim-burrows/the-story-of-the-dnd-ban-at-dec/10150195644192850/<br /><br />The DEC branch begins in 1978 when Lawrence gives a copy of his TOPS-10 BASIC program to some people at DEC. Given that the DEC folks apparently agreed not to distribute the source code, he must have been quite unhappy about everything that is about to follow.<br /><br />Various people work on the game, and it looks like there were fairly substantial changes. For example, one of the changelog entries from Jim Burrows is "Rewrite Combat system". In a round-about way, a version of this branch was included on a DECUS tape. (It was part of a collection of games that was contributed by a third party, after the game was banned at DEC itself. The included changelog shows its origin though.)<br /><br />DECUS was DEC's user group -- this version would have seen fairly wide distribution. It's still available, and if somebody has access to a VMS system they probably can get this to run. The tape is dated 1984, but most files, except some auxiliary programs, are dated November 1979. http://ftp.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vax84d/ncs/rec/recsrc/dnd/<br /><br />The Chuck Cranor versions on the "unofficial home page" are descendants of this release. The Lars Persson versions seem to be missing some maintenance programs that were in the DECUS release, so it might be earlier or it might have followed a different path. The "TOPS20 executable" is weird, I don't think it's a TOPS-20 program at all. I don't know what it is.<br /><br />A second branch originated at DEC's Pascal group who created a clone of the game in Pascal. According to Burrows' post, he was the only one of the people who worked on it that had seen the code of the BASIC version. They intended to ship this version as an example program with their compiler. When DEC's lawyers discovered that this program with a very murky history was about to become part of an official DEC product, they killed it. In this telling of the history, there was no external pressure on DEC, rather DEC's lawyers acted out of caution.<br /><br />Anyway, some copies made it out of DEC. Bill Knight used this as a basis for his version. Perhaps others as well.<br /><br />Now, as far as I can tell, these DEC versions don't have anything to do with Telengard. It seems that Lawrence might not even have been aware of any of this until he encountered Knight's version. <br /><br />That was enough sleuthing. I don't even care about these games :)Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-15659172562485916022016-04-20T04:54:51.618-04:002016-04-20T04:54:51.618-04:00Oh, Mandragore's coming up. That is one odd ga...Oh, Mandragore's coming up. That is one odd game. I never got anywhere in it, but I remember the weird interface. Just picking up an item or equiping something requires a sequence of actions that would pass for a puzzle in other games. I don't know if it's any good, but it's certainly interesting.Commentmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-70769242387151567412016-04-20T03:04:56.095-04:002016-04-20T03:04:56.095-04:00Although, funnily enough, the artistic depictions ...Although, funnily enough, the artistic depictions of St George differ from the legend - in the legend the spear snaps and he ends up slaying it with his sword.<br /><br />Regarding Talisman - here's another possible derivation: the Holy Lance is another name for the Spear of Destiny, which was used to stab Jesus as he hung from the cross. As a holy relic, it would presumably have power over Satan, who is also known as 'The Dragon'. The fact that it can only be used by 'good' characters is further indication that that may have been the source material.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-4586049973052486272016-04-19T23:30:06.082-04:002016-04-19T23:30:06.082-04:00The first PC we had in our house was a Heathkit H8...The first PC we had in our house was a Heathkit H89 that my dad built (because half of the point of Heathkit products was having to assemble them yourself). I remember learning how to boot CP/M so that I could play Super Star Trek, and typing in BASIC games from Creative Computing books and magazines. I wonder if this game would have run on it?HunterZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17049065099652976143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-21138562478227198272016-04-19T22:30:54.997-04:002016-04-19T22:30:54.997-04:00It's probably more likely to be derived from t...It's probably more likely to be derived from the myth of St George.Nathan P. Mahneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184246437497081701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60984928023440147542016-04-19T20:49:58.270-04:002016-04-19T20:49:58.270-04:00I sort of wonder whether the 'magic lance that...I sort of wonder whether the 'magic lance that drives off dragons' isn't the source for the Holy Lance ( very effective against dragons ) in the Talisman board game published in 1983Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com