tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post8950890469378806950..comments2024-03-28T15:25:30.216-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Camelot: What Makes Us UniqueCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8633602909564683222023-01-13T21:08:51.803-05:002023-01-13T21:08:51.803-05:00I would also challenge that you can't be more ...I would also challenge that you can't be more skilled at Skyrim then another player. I know lots of players who get through fights that I am chugging potions left and right in without taking damage, because they are far better and blocking and dodging then I am. <br /><br />Heck, given ADGQ is on right now, check out the speedruns of Skyrim: You'd probably be a Glitchless type of player: https://www.speedrun.com/skyrim?h=Glitchless_Main_Quest-Novice-PC&x=9kvpvekg-0nwpkvr8.0q5m3wvl-7891rq9n.rqv09g6l<br /><br />Currently the main quest, not using any glitches to make it faster, takes them an hour and seven minutes. I couldn't do that, not if I did nothing but Skyrim for a week. Sure, I can beat Skyrim, but I'd have to grind to compensate for my lack of skill. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-21567978113832940042023-01-13T20:59:14.077-05:002023-01-13T20:59:14.077-05:00"When a champion like Billy Mitchell achieves..."When a champion like Billy Mitchell achieves a perfect score, we don't say, "Wow, you created a great character there. You put a lot into him."" <br /><br />No, but I do wonder how much he cheated to get that score. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/04/premiere-game-scoreboard-bans-billy-mitchell-in-donkey-kong-cheating-scandal/Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12933838188141286462023-01-13T20:55:25.244-05:002023-01-13T20:55:25.244-05:00As an interesting note, Masahiro Sakurai (Creator ...As an interesting note, Masahiro Sakurai (Creator of among other things Super Smash Brothers and Kirby) has recently started a youtube series on game design, and has discussed 90s game design (ie when he started and had his first hits), and one of his points was that basically game designers in that era made games harder as they didn't know enough yet to make a good game that would last a while that wasn't brutally hard. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-77444440028737939012022-09-07T01:24:43.837-04:002022-09-07T01:24:43.837-04:00An interesting and well written blog entry is comp...An interesting and well written blog entry is complemented and expanded upon by thoughtful, insightful and civilized discussion. This happening so often here is a reason I like this blog. Thanks to everyone involved for the food for thought!<br /><br />Another thing I like is how Chet turns entries which are nominally about his current experience with a specific individual game into "hidden" special topic postings. The only "downside" being having to remember what was discussed where (or finding it in the first place if you are new to the blog) without the aid of a specific index as there is for the "official" special topic entries.<br /><br />Maybe, if Chet agrees and someone has the time and energy to do it, one day an index of such general "subjects" / "themes" - even including extended discussions in the comments section? - could be created. That would be awesome and very helpful given the wealth of interesting content these twelve years of blog life have already created thanks to Chet and the great community of commenters, but I recognize it would be quite an endeavour.Buscanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26193728852294231862020-01-02T09:13:02.706-05:002020-01-02T09:13:02.706-05:00Exactly. I can understand being upset if some set ...Exactly. I can understand being upset if some set of game types was crowding out others. That might have been very true in the past. But with indie gaming and direct download there's a huge emount of diversity available today, and you should be able to find what you want.<br /><br />The gaming landscape is too vast to make unitary statements like "gaming today is all about..."<br /><br />Now if you're just resentful that some people are different and like different things, or that some tastes are more popular than yours, then I'm not sure what to say. I'd suggest not feeling responsible for making sure everyone else doesn't miss out.asimpkinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-13238017972706100272020-01-02T01:18:09.935-05:002020-01-02T01:18:09.935-05:00Addressing Harland, who is passionate but I think ...Addressing Harland, who is passionate but I think oversimplifying, game design today absolutely recognises that there are a subset of gamers who enjoy and seek challenge, and recognition for overcoming it.<br /><br />It turns up in almost every discussion of ways to classify gamers, from the concept of "hard fun", which originates outside of gaming but was picked up by Koster and others, to Bartle's "achiever" archetype, or Edwards' "gamist", to a range of other systems.<br /><br />And designers today specifically pick who they are designing and marketing games for. <br /><br />The reality is that for any type of gamer, there are more and better games specifically targeting you today than there ever were in the 80s. And there are plenty of games that are not remotely interested in giving you an easy win - the entire Souls-like genre, the range of precision platformers exemplified by Super Meat Boy, the entire catalogue of ridiculously deep Paradox Interactive 4X games, bullet hells such as Cuphead, and so on and so forth. <br /><br />But I'd repeat my comment that difficulty is primarily a function of teaching, and that the difference between difficult games that people like and difficult ones that they spurn is about how well the game creates a stable, predictable environment with predictable consequences, and teaches you the skills necessary to engage with it.GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-78086331684575949552020-01-02T01:07:06.531-05:002020-01-02T01:07:06.531-05:00After I walked away from my earlier comments, I th...After I walked away from my earlier comments, I thought about it, and I think a clearer version of what I am saying is this:<br /><br />==<br />Choice exists within a predetermined scenario in inverse proportion to the mechanical consequences of that choice.<br />===<br /><br />That is to say, if a choice has no consequences - i.e. pick a red shirt or a blue shirt, and all it changes is the graphical appearance of your character - you have free choice.<br /><br />If it has some consequences - the blue shirt gives water resistance, the red shirt gives fire resistance, but you can win the game with either - you still have some choice, but you've introduced the possibility that there is a "correct" answer for that player, especially if they otherwise found the fire area of the game hard but the water area easy.<br /><br />If there are *significant* consequences for the choice - again, the shirts give resistances, but the final boss is very hard and deals fire damage, so not taking the red shirt severely increases the game difficulty - then it's not really a free choice. You're only making a choice to extent of whether you want to play "easy mode" or "hard mode".<br /><br />And finally, if only one of these options gives you a reasonably viable chance of winning the game, there's no choice at all, in the same way that the choice in Mario Bros between jumping over a Koopa or letting it hit you is not really a "choice" - it's a test of skill.<br /><br />I wrote about meaningful choices versus non-meaningful choices in another context (link below) which doesn't directly answer this particular situation but I think helps define some of the space around it:<br /><br />http://elevenfootpole.blogspot.com/2009/02/meaningful-choices.htmlGregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-2663223544491674352020-01-01T14:47:43.774-05:002020-01-01T14:47:43.774-05:00That definitely is one advantage to playing agains...That definitely is one advantage to playing against an AI, but you're talking about the PLAYER here, I think, not the "characters" you're playing. I don't want my SITUATION to be unique so much as my "guy."CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-56109737465273094982019-12-31T05:54:13.817-05:002019-12-31T05:54:13.817-05:00Whilst there are some easy games, some of the game...Whilst there are some easy games, some of the games with the highest public opinion - Dark Souls, Dead Cells etc - have a serious skill level to attain almost anything from them. So hard games are popular. <br /><br />But massively popular with the general populous games usually have a financial barrier rather than a skill one - freemium and the like, and the few that don't are generally online games (LoL, DOTA, Fortnite, CSGO) that have a crippling skill level thanks to there always being that one person who is fed by a drip and plays it 24h a day.<br /><br />In the squishy middle of all that are some truly spectacular games which have neither the difficulty level of eating the sun, nor a press x to win mechanic. General terms : Hades, Hitman, OOTP, Cities Skylines; CRPG specific : Disco Elysium, Pillars of Eternity etc.<br /><br />Modern store fronts (Hi Steam) have never made it more possible for those of us with our own loves in gaming to quietly play dozens of the genre we adore and ignore the seething masses.VBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10356793256818551490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8615056129814143362019-12-31T03:34:16.848-05:002019-12-31T03:34:16.848-05:00And those old "hard" games also prevente...And those old "hard" games also prevented games from reaching a broader market, and thus getting better since there's more money to put into them now.<br /><br />A lot of the "difficulty" of the older games was anything but difficult, as people have seen from reading this blog. A game is not difficult because it takes ten hour of grinding to reach the next section or retrying a luck-based mission dozens of times. Look at Deadly Towers as describe here. It had so much padding it's considered one of the worst games ever, but it's not hard just time consuming.<br /><br />Also, some games that are actually hard don't interest some players. Look at Dark Souls. I'll never play it, but not because of it's difficulty. I just can't stand games that require precise timing like that, including RPGs.Drawdenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-53869007351362147532019-12-31T01:43:47.885-05:002019-12-31T01:43:47.885-05:00And it's not just you Harland, the attitude I&...And it's not just you Harland, the attitude I'm talking about is all over the Internet. A large section of gamers threw a fit because "Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice" had a completely optional easy mode. There's this trend where people feel like their enjoyment of a single-player game is invalidated because other people are able to experience the game at a lesser level of difficulty.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14025511634630902101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-5826478714354714522019-12-31T01:37:27.173-05:002019-12-31T01:37:27.173-05:00I'm not arguing against the truth of what you ...I'm not arguing against the truth of what you say. I watch game developers talks from GDC all the time, I know exactly about reward systems and the tricks they use to make games more satisfying.<br /><br />My problem is with the way it's always phrased. "I like hard games but then other people came and made easier games popular, they're just chemically hooked dopamine addicts." You say I'm calling you a dictator like it's some unreasonable exaggeration, but earlier in this very thread you were wishing that "others" would get their fix somewhere else so harder games would be popular again.<br /><br />It's never stated like "I like old games, I support the games I like." It's always "Gaming was good, but then other people came and other types of games are more popular, I wish they would leave and us 'challenge gamers' could have the hobby all to ourselves again."Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14025511634630902101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26668531549761198442019-12-30T21:41:49.383-05:002019-12-30T21:41:49.383-05:00I'm sorry people feel uncomfortable, but it...I'm sorry people feel uncomfortable, but it's 100% true. Video gaming today isn't about what it used to be in the period this blog covers. Video gaming today is about getting people to pay money in exchange for the release of pleasing brain chemicals. <br /><br />In the 80s/90s, game companies didn't have psychologists working for them telling them what people want and how. Today? They do. <br /><br />There is an unspoken but sometimes spoken compact between the companies and the players. You pay your money; we provide the win. I about fell out of my chair the first time I heard, "the players paid for the game, they should get to experience all of the content. It's not fair to keep them away from a win with difficulty. Our psychologists tell us people play games for a release from the frustrations of life and the last thing they want to feel is frustration during our games." Translation: press X to win.<br /><br />Oh, and of course us "challenge gamers" are all about the pleasing release of brain chemicals too. Where did I say anything differently? Anything good in life: a bottle of wine, a sunset, an A on a test, making love to a woman, all of them release pleasing brain chemicals. <br /><br />We have a possibly obsolete idea that you should have to work to get those chemicals, that they are the reward for doing good. Things like drugs and games provide a shortcut to the chemicals without the work. Who am I to be such a monster to tell people that after a hard day's work they have to spend two hours trying different techniques to defeat a boss? When they could just press X to win and feel great about life for a while? Where do I get off being such a dictator telling people they can't escape?Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-18293607391436017642019-12-30T19:04:21.461-05:002019-12-30T19:04:21.461-05:00Using olives as a food metaphor seems like a non-s...Using olives as a food metaphor seems like a non-sequitur. Maybe one person would make that argument. I mean, an argument that makes sense would be to compare it to someone constantly complaining about fast food, or not using fresh food. That wouldn't be an argument in your favor since those are universally agreed upon in gourmet spheres. Its more like gourmets constantly complaining that there's no good place to eat. Helpful people chime in that a lot of people enjoy eating fast food nonstop and you should seek out (that every effort has been made to hide) that rare restaurant that serves quality food (before they go bankrupt because nobody can find them).<br />I guess you could also try comparing it to some sort of specific diet, but I don't think that'd be a very good comparison either.MorpheusKitamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16591271981112642781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-81479181631679138952019-12-30T14:43:38.888-05:002019-12-30T14:43:38.888-05:00Your dad could never beat up my dad.Your dad could never beat up my dad.AdventureMaterialshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285640430049907816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58540863782019515612019-12-30T13:57:12.571-05:002019-12-30T13:57:12.571-05:00Why are some people so triggered over the fact tha...Why are some people so triggered over the fact that not everybody likes hard games? Not everybody likes olives, in fact very few in my experience, but I'm not on some food blog constantly complaining under every entry that REAL gourmets eat olives on everything and everybody else is just a simple-minded fool.<br /><br />If you like challenging games, even if they're unpopular: own it. Seek out those games, pump them up, shout them from the rooftops. Back their Kickstarter. Hell, start a blog! It's a lot cooler and more productive for everybody than using armchair psychology to justify why your favorite game is better than somebody else's, an argument as childish and asinine as "my dad can beat up your dad."Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14025511634630902101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24894402601609729622019-12-30T11:36:44.750-05:002019-12-30T11:36:44.750-05:00@PetrusOctavianus I enjoy books and a good narrati...@PetrusOctavianus I enjoy books and a good narrative game. They are completely different mind experiences.Giauzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10546859151525161696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-40080918185035766142019-12-30T10:56:29.748-05:002019-12-30T10:56:29.748-05:00This is the reason over tiime I moved more and mor...This is the reason over tiime I moved more and more away from RPG, and more and more toward Strategy Games or Grand Strategy games (not RTS) - it feels like whatever you are doing, you were the only one to do it.<br /><br />Similarly, I am more and more into Succession Games, or everything that is relevant to you : you find yourself in situation that no "single player" would have ever been into, due to having to cope with the previous player playing still and having limited time to do your thing.Narwhal, the Wargaming Scribehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05808952600298482923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-45350921266582324842019-12-30T08:27:23.415-05:002019-12-30T08:27:23.415-05:00@Iffy Bonzoolie I had forgotten about that, but ye...@Iffy Bonzoolie I had forgotten about that, but yeah, lots of overlap. I guess in an obvious way a lack of density of whatever you are looking for is the reason for any gamer to get bored with any game. The more interesting difference is what different people are looking for.<br /><br />@Tristan Gall Maybe, I did sound a little maniacal. I can't tell if I have a lower tolerance for boredom, or if I'm just bored by different things. I certainly try to keep my mind occupied, but I'm also good about finishing things.<br /><br />But it's not like I can't handle passive entertainment. I love books, movies, music, etc. But those areas have me covered, so if I reach for a video game I want to scratch a very different itch.<br /><br />@Harland It doesn't seem so grim to me. I'm neither bothered that other people aren't like me, nor do I find it difficult to find the type of games I like. Yeah, sometimes I mistakenly start one of those other types of games and marvel at the people that make it and enjoy it, but I just switch to the next game on my list.<br /><br />@Anonymous Yeah, definitely lots of people that like blended experiences in addition to those that are looking for something very specific. I can appreciate those passive elements as long as their delivery doesn't interupt the active elements I'm looking for. There's a big difference to me between voiced dialog that I have to stop and listen to compared to it playing in the background while I'm playing. But if you like to stop and savor it, then great!asimpkinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58577613796014812492019-12-30T06:14:42.885-05:002019-12-30T06:14:42.885-05:00I never liked that particular analogy or what you ...I never liked that particular analogy or what you might call it, it implies an either or scenario I don't really think applies that much. Most people can enjoy both narrative and choice at the same time. Balanced against eachother it can make for an experience greater than the sum of its parts. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8137380329454565892019-12-30T05:15:56.878-05:002019-12-30T05:15:56.878-05:00@stepped pyramids, have you ever considered readin...@stepped pyramids, have you ever considered reading books for a satisfying narrative?PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-92211305813561744242019-12-30T01:53:38.581-05:002019-12-30T01:53:38.581-05:00@Harland: Have you ever considered that your desir...@Harland: Have you ever considered that your desire for "challenge" is as simple and "chemical" as other people's desire for a satisfying narrative?stepped pyramidsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-13692878437685656552019-12-29T23:07:52.433-05:002019-12-29T23:07:52.433-05:00Lots of people *hate* making decisions. They *lik...Lots of people *hate* making decisions. They *like* the interactive movie style, with tons of cutscenes and scripted action sequences. These people have money and buy games. They have a low tolerance for any kind of frustration and want a "YOU WIN!" screen as a reward, every time. And there better be townsfolk saying "THANK YOU HERO" because that causes genuine good feelings.<br /><br />We "challenge gamers" are not so many. We're the ones who will try again, try different strategies, re-equip at the store and see if it works, and feel rewarded when we finally vanquish a difficult adversary.<br /><br />But the others aren't like that. They have enough frustration in their lives already, thankyouverymuch. They don't want to turn on a goddamn video game in their precious spare time and feel *any* kind of bad feeling. They want to feel great, and video games are the method by which they mean to achieve this goal.<br /><br />It's all about the release of pleasurable brain chemicals. Perhaps someday there will be another way for them to get their hit of pleasure and we can go back to games that reward skill and practice. Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-52427091852918860542019-12-29T22:59:46.639-05:002019-12-29T22:59:46.639-05:00What I thought was interesting about watching Bill...What I thought was interesting about <a href="https://saidit.net/s/videos/comments/1dvh/billy_mitchell_plays_a_perfect_game_of_pacman_in/" rel="nofollow">watching Billy Mitchell's perfect game of Pac-Man</a> wasn't the later levels that are purely mechanistic. It was watching him play the early cherry/strawberry/peach levels. Those have patterns too, but not ones in which you can eat all four ghosts on every power pellet. He had to actually *play* the game and cluster the ghosts together so he could eat them all every time. He even screws it up a couple of times and has to restart. It's a great viewing experience.Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7304840879562875412019-12-29T21:04:25.669-05:002019-12-29T21:04:25.669-05:00I was gonna comment, but Greg got this.I was gonna comment, but Greg got this.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.com