tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post6755507374176853862..comments2024-03-28T15:25:30.216-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Breadth, Depth, and Immersion (ft. The Seventh Link)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-49422254434218732582019-03-04T21:53:19.914-05:002019-03-04T21:53:19.914-05:00What, you mean LIGOLAS and GIMLET isn't the ob...What, you mean LIGOLAS and GIMLET isn't the obvious choice?Quirkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16409671254311123117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-5705120390846222022019-03-04T12:32:21.767-05:002019-03-04T12:32:21.767-05:00Let's focus on what's important: thinking ...Let's focus on what's important: thinking up synonyms so the scale becomes either GIMLET with a TWIST or GIMLET on the ROCKS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60411991645714711712019-03-02T23:25:26.380-05:002019-03-02T23:25:26.380-05:00That’s Hed-LEY.That’s Hed-LEY.ThirtyNinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720392687278454430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67252610399151529412019-02-27T14:38:25.538-05:002019-02-27T14:38:25.538-05:00You should add a 4th dimension to your quest: time...You should add a 4th dimension to your quest: timely relevance. In the 80's, Bard's tale fake-ish 3D was all the rage, but nowadays simply looks cheap. Same to Ultima, back at the time, they were great, but nowadays, only old folks like me would like it. So take into account the relevancy of the time it was built on (compare Bard's tale to other 3D games of the time, same for top-view RPG to compare against Ultima, and so on). With thatm you'd avoid comparing the new Bard's Tale (with top graphics, enemies, laughable songs - Oh, Charlie Mops) with the older one. Two completely different beasts.Alfredohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05212677195723881190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-53150878009288397972019-02-26T12:46:36.897-05:002019-02-26T12:46:36.897-05:00Agree with your list, to which I would add the ori...Agree with your list, to which I would add the original Fallout. It was a tight little package.<br /><br />A few Bioware games, such as BG2, KOTOR would also be good examples, for me.<br /><br />U7 makes a good contrast with Part 2: in that game, the world feels smaller, but it's packed with tons of dialogue and puzzles, so that depth is more than the size of the world can support, IMHO.<br /><br />Similarly with Torment: some locations have so much dialogue (no matter how well written) that it feels a little punishing.<br /><br />The two Gothic are some of the most underrated RPGs ever, can't wait for the addict to get to them, in 2030.Vincenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58544152508571220722019-02-26T06:03:19.115-05:002019-02-26T06:03:19.115-05:00In my oppinion the best rate of Bredth vs Depth wo...In my oppinion the best rate of Bredth vs Depth would be Depth 2 times the Bredth. Having interesting things to do is much more important than open spaces, so we should really be aiming for more content in a single location.<br /><br />I also don't consider immersion factoring in, it is more a issue of representation. For example, Wizardry 6 has varied locations in it's tightly packed world, but since all walls look the same, we don't perceive them as different, but one big blob, but if there was one tileset for each location that would be enough. It is not that the tiles should look better than they already do, but they should look different to represent the huge differences between a castle, a pyramid and the river of the dead, instead of everything looking like a huge cave.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07523658981181624151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60682098292925498662019-02-25T16:31:21.005-05:002019-02-25T16:31:21.005-05:00No roguelike has really provided "immersion&q...No roguelike has really provided "immersion" to me so far, which is why it's good that a full game only lasts a few hours. CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7908407158724072142019-02-25T16:26:49.914-05:002019-02-25T16:26:49.914-05:00There's a difference between originality in br...There's a difference between originality in broad themes and originality in the details. I care about the latter but not so much the former.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58666589556585533562019-02-25T16:23:11.979-05:002019-02-25T16:23:11.979-05:00I didn't say that either had low depth. I said...I didn't say that either had low depth. I said that <i>Skyrim</i> didn't have a depth equal to its breadth. I think FO4 is actually a pretty "cubey" game, although that opinion is so controversial that I didn't want to over-use FO4 examples, lest this comment thread focus on that game exclusively.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-44664389877493106792019-02-25T15:07:35.790-05:002019-02-25T15:07:35.790-05:00The coolest way to solve this would be with a weig...The coolest way to solve this would be with a weighted average of the GIMLET, using the scores composing the final rate... I don't know if it would be more or less hard with the info you already had, but if you could find the way, you could even calculate the new GIMLET with the data already present in the old one...The Sleepy Carmatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13374527404883331177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67380449380223471122019-02-25T13:00:59.424-05:002019-02-25T13:00:59.424-05:00Bloodnet and Superhero League of Hoboken do this w...Bloodnet and Superhero League of Hoboken do this well: Large worlds with little filler, plenty of interesting things to see and a great sense of mystery. I wish more C.R.P.G.s were like them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1260256829206235512019-02-25T12:52:07.360-05:002019-02-25T12:52:07.360-05:00Fallout 4 has its problems, but Fallout 76:
No ch...Fallout 4 has its problems, but Fallout 76:<br /><br />No characters<br /><br />No story<br /><br />No point<br /><br />No reason to explore<br /><br />Everything you create is erased when you leave the server<br /><br />Nothing to do but grind for items that make the grind slightly less tedious<br /><br />Microtransactions, and even though they were supposed to be cosmetic they have become useful to gameplay.<br /><br />$200 nylon hobo bindle sold as a fancy canvas bag.<br /><br />Players banned for complaining about how the terrible game.<br /><br />No offline mode.<br /><br />All the bugs you expect from Bethesda mixed with servers that randomly stop working.<br /><br />This is why I will never again buy from Bethesda.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-18519118718190572432019-02-25T12:42:28.899-05:002019-02-25T12:42:28.899-05:00I agree that Skyrim was too linear--in fact, I th...I agree that Skyrim was too linear--in fact, I think the world and dungeon design have been going downhill since Arena. My favorite Elder Scrolls games are Arena, Redguard and Daggerfall because they have suck large and interesting worlds, complex dungeons and so much to do, but I never got invested in the later games that way. Take Oblivion, for example--both the game and the afterlife in the game series--in Daggerfall, it looks like a mysterious astral plane; in the game Oblivion, it looks like a generic fiery hellhole. <br /><br />I rage uninstalled Skyrim after the quests broke and I could no longer continue the game. I restarted Daggerfall many times before I beat it, but I quit Skyrim as soon as it stopped working which I think says it all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26695346141003026592019-02-25T12:01:22.087-05:002019-02-25T12:01:22.087-05:00That would have been awesome, like a modern Hedy L...That would have been awesome, like a modern Hedy Lamarr...Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-34684563612668142472019-02-25T07:21:38.161-05:002019-02-25T07:21:38.161-05:00For a second I read Matt LeBlancFor a second I read Matt LeBlancshankaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194425920878224732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-76831816320822671822019-02-24T20:37:01.321-05:002019-02-24T20:37:01.321-05:00There's also "Balance!" as a neutral...There's also "Balance!" as a neutral battle cry, as if it's really ever very clear what proper balance would be, let alone actually managing to achieve or maintain it.Quirkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16409671254311123117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-10119616365727020932019-02-24T10:58:09.854-05:002019-02-24T10:58:09.854-05:00Good vs Evil is kind of the ur-trope of fantasy. N...Good vs Evil is kind of the ur-trope of fantasy. Neutral is usually either 'get off my lawn' or 'I am beyond such concerns'.<br /><br />I don't find it to be a super-interesting metaphysical construct to play around in, but whatever, it's easy to roll with if you don't think about it too much.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-65254038913353572602019-02-24T08:00:52.336-05:002019-02-24T08:00:52.336-05:00I'd buy that RPGI'd buy that RPGJarlFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139422412722665286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-76301093409444541722019-02-24T07:48:52.570-05:002019-02-24T07:48:52.570-05:00I find the whole alignment system of D&D to be...I find the whole alignment system of D&D to be rather silly in general, with its good neutral evil axisJarlFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139422412722665286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-56462748618331493422019-02-24T06:31:02.634-05:002019-02-24T06:31:02.634-05:00Thanks for the detailed explanation. Then VNs are ...Thanks for the detailed explanation. Then VNs are truly not the genre for me. Telltale games were too heavy on the cutscenes and too light on the gameplay, same with all the VNs and Dating Sims I tried. PM and LLTQ like games are a lot of fun though because they are so free form, and focus on gameplay over story. JarlFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139422412722665286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60178453096097519332019-02-24T02:28:21.316-05:002019-02-24T02:28:21.316-05:00Imho the BDI system has the same problem of the GI...Imho the BDI system has the same problem of the GIMLET one. Both systems factorize a game in separate aspects. But what is not considered is how these aspect interacts to create a whole. Nifft Batuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05436118163609366932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-36903224122323068272019-02-24T02:20:36.752-05:002019-02-24T02:20:36.752-05:00The GIMLET is a rubric for assessing the things th...The GIMLET is a rubric for assessing the things that you like about CRPGs. BDI is already represented there, though not explicitly called out. Mostly in Game World and Encounters, and probably little bits here and there in other categories.<br /><br />The interesting thing to me is that BDI isn't really specific to RPGs, unlike Character Development or Economy. And, it really doesn't cover mechanics at all, it's mostly about narrative.<br /><br />I saw a talk by Marc LeBlanc on a framework for game design he called <a href="https://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf" rel="nofollow">MDA - Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics</a>. It's a short paper.<br /><br />Mechanics are the rules of the game. Dynamics are the player behaviors and experiences that emerge from those rules. Aesthetics are what they sound like - the sense language presented by the game through art, setting, narrative, etc.<br /><br />It might be a worthwhile exercise to look at the GIMLET through MDA. Which categories cover which aspects? Is anything underepresented in proportion to the enjoyment you derive from the games?Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58986081998462578562019-02-24T01:44:38.199-05:002019-02-24T01:44:38.199-05:00"Quality of time spent" - I think this i..."Quality of time spent" - I think this is key. I'm going to go on a contrarian limb and say that while all these concepts are fishing for what makes a game good, sometimes it may be more intuitive if you approach from the flip side and look at what makes a game bad. This isn't just for games - most arts don't have a perfect formula for doing them right, but they absolutely have a large number of flags for things going wrong.<br /><br />I'll accept that both breadth and depth do mean something, and that finding a sort of balance can be useful, but if you're starting from scratch it's going to be really, really hard to lay out a plan that makes sure these two things are in harmony. What you really need to do is make a draft of the game and then (and others have said this) playtest and make sure that interesting things happen frequently enough it's satisfying for the player. Too grindy? That's bad. Too empty? That's bad. Too generic? That's bad. Too hard to find the next step? Riddles too difficult without a hint? Character progression too slow? All bad.<br /><br />You can fix those things by adjusting the breadth, the depth, the timing of progression, in part via gimlet-y things like NPCs, puzzles, and the economy, even. <br /><br />I'm not 100% sold on immersion. It's not something I pay much attention to, and some of my favorite games, such as West of Loathing (it's a stick-figure game riddled with jokes) definitely lack much of the "immersive" qualities you describe. Again, a lot of other readers have suggested the opposite might be a bigger issue: it's not the immersion, but fighting against parts of the game that can distract, frustrate, or otherwise pull you out. That might include graphics so bad you get annoyed, and I can definitely remember voice acting so terrible I wanted to quit a game (Heroes of Might and Magic 5). On the minor side, I remember a lot of aggravation over even the item-swapping inventory interface in Might and Magic 4. Again, it's not so much being immersed, as not having negative elements interfere with your enjoyment.Quirkzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16409671254311123117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68218931351209858682019-02-23T12:34:52.106-05:002019-02-23T12:34:52.106-05:00No. They created a lot of writing after the game, ...No. They created a lot of writing after the game, outside of the game (myst books and all). The first Myst has barely any video. The second one has more video, true, but it's obvious that the story is super thin. Presto shook things up on the third and the fourth one is the first one where I feel that there are some characters.<br /><br />God what happened with this comment section? This used to be around people that knew the games and discussed amicably. "You should play myst again". Please, don't make me torture myself with that again, looking for some reward in a game that barely has any.Risingson Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915480026187953569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-75624892804490655482019-02-23T12:31:36.169-05:002019-02-23T12:31:36.169-05:00Harland: please make an effort to understand what ...Harland: please make an effort to understand what you read before trying to be dismissive and sarcastic.Risingson Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915480026187953569noreply@blogger.com