tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post5248049422109901952..comments2024-03-29T02:34:55.592-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Lord of the Rings: Exploration AngstCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19059407522678812172016-10-07T13:40:31.778-04:002016-10-07T13:40:31.778-04:00Hello.
First, great blog. It's great reading ...Hello.<br /><br />First, great blog. It's great reading about all these old CRPGs from the perspective of a player, instead of a professional reviewer.<br /><br />Now, as a long time Tolkien fan, your jabs at ol' Tom & the like make me want to express my own opinions on this literary work. I hope you don't mind.<br /><br />I don't think Tom's real name is Tom, though I may be wrong, I'm not exactly a Tolkien scholar. And the reason he doesn't take the ring is because he sinply doesn't care. Tom meddling in these affairs would be like you stepping in to sort out a fight between ants. Sure, you CAN do it, but more often than not you wouldn't even notice, or if you did, you probably wouldn't care.<br /><br />Similarly, I think the reason Gandalf just doesn't get it all over with by himself, is because he wants to see if Middle-earth will be left in capable hands before he sails back to Valinor.<br /><br />Lord of the Rings, to me, reads like a passing of the torch between generations. Gandalf, Elrond & all the others have dealt with far greater threats, Sauron looking for the Ring is in a weakened state, so now it's the mortal races - the children - turn to finally sort things out for themselves.<br /><br />Gandalf & the others act pretty much like a caring father helping to guide a young son in taking his first steps in the adult world, not interfering too much, but ready to step in should things get out of control.<br /><br />The triumph of the mortal races signals their coming of age & a time when wizards, gods & elves are not needed any more & can go to their own secluded place in the world. You know, like an old toy stored safely away in an attic somewhere.<br /><br />In that last regard, Lord of the Rings is just a way more convoluted Winnie-the-Pooh.<br /><br />Which I also love.<br /><br />Try reading the books again with that in mind. It might help.<br /><br />Now, these games, well, they sound like utter crap. Lord of the Rings Online, on the other hand, is pretty good, a much better way to visit these locations on your PC.Izzy Morenonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-78558819957676324442014-05-27T02:01:01.067-04:002014-05-27T02:01:01.067-04:00Yeah, saw that wordy preface on The Silmarillion b...Yeah, saw that wordy preface on The Silmarillion but never read it.<br /><br />In fact, I usually skip most of his extremely wordy parts of the story. Don't they have competent editors in the 40s?Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60750199371956990712014-05-26T21:16:25.907-04:002014-05-26T21:16:25.907-04:00You would be wrong. Not only was the text largely ...You would be wrong. Not only was the text largely completed by 1943 or 1943, Tolkien abolutely DESPISED all forms of allegory, and his fury at people making exactly the claim you're making is legendary, to the point where all later editions of the book contain a preface by him laying this out plainly, followed by a summary of what the work would look like if it had been based on the historical events.Nomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02317814736043426457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-17572319079839262912014-05-26T20:14:09.799-04:002014-05-26T20:14:09.799-04:00Choices and consequences... what LOTR and Wastelan...Choices and consequences... what LOTR and Wasteland did in the 90s that current AAA games still fail to accomplish.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-20610375374278475152014-05-26T19:59:53.919-04:002014-05-26T19:59:53.919-04:00I've always thought that LOTR was a based on t...I've always thought that LOTR was a based on the World Wars. I'm not sure who's who but I think Gandalf is Churchill and Tom Bombadil is Einstein. Er... I think. And the One Ring's the atom bomb.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35357458331134515192014-05-26T19:36:33.882-04:002014-05-26T19:36:33.882-04:00Only actual advice for the game, play it like Skyr...Only actual advice for the game, play it like Skyrim in top-down perspective. XDKenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-3443186356936775682014-05-23T03:54:49.164-04:002014-05-23T03:54:49.164-04:00Somewhere--I think Brandy Hall--I'd read a boo...Somewhere--I think Brandy Hall--I'd read a book and gotten a hint to dig in a barrow southwest of the Old Forest for the stone. I didn't even know what it did when I dug it up, but it sounded important.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-61001259339840914242014-05-23T01:01:44.174-04:002014-05-23T01:01:44.174-04:00You say you have the Springstone? How did you find...You say you have the Springstone? How did you find it without the Ruddy Oak tree in your party?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7951160093058920232014-05-21T20:15:20.808-04:002014-05-21T20:15:20.808-04:00@VK, I honestly thought the same of Gothic when I ...@VK, I honestly thought the same of Gothic when I first played it, but I started to appreciate the design more once I realized I could just go somewhere else and come back later. In truth, I really liked the approach once I got used to it. It encouraged me to map out as much of the world as I could, then look at the areas I couldn't get through and think about ways to conquer them.<br /><br />It's also unfair to say that parts of the world are closed just because the monsters in those places are tough. A big part of the Gothic 1/2 combat system came down to player skill. If you were good enough at the game to defeat the monsters that were tougher than your level the reward was overpowered loot. You could also sneak into harder areas and steal everything, or just run in, grab stuff and run out.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08236674968994362673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35517189978119271612014-05-21T19:11:27.699-04:002014-05-21T19:11:27.699-04:00The thing is that you can play the game almost exa...The thing is that you can play the game almost exactly as it is narrated in the first book (except for the last part after Lorien and some minor things) evading combat, following exactly the same path (Green Hills, Ferry, Buckland, Old Forest, The Barrow-Downs, Bree, Wheatertop, etc) and with the same encounters and scenes from the book.<br /><br />But also there are a lot of non-canonical stuff that is not by all means necesary to complete the game and that the game does not force you to do or explore (Moria is a good example, it's huge but you can follow exactly the same path as in the book and forget the many "Deeps" and quests it has). So you have kind of both worlds, for the purist (again, except for the last part and a quest regarding Anduril) and for the gamers.<br /><br />I'm a huge fan of the books and I'm not quite fond with the movies, but I really like what they did with this game (Ok, not so fan of the last part and of some technical things like the inventory management), not saying that it couldn't be better but for me is a good enough game adaptation.Mirirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-41122564251040365252014-05-21T12:52:39.637-04:002014-05-21T12:52:39.637-04:00Thanks, Chester.
I suppose another way of putting...Thanks, Chester.<br /><br />I suppose another way of putting it would be that it's less that it doesn't feel true to Tolkien, and more that it doesn't feel true to the reasons why people enjoy and relate to the books. A game structured like this could probably scratch a lot of CRPG itches, but if one bought the game with the vague idea that it'd be like living out the adventures one enjoyed in the books, it'd inevitably disappoint. In truth, the best way to 'live' <i>The Lord of the Rings</i> is to read the books. The films, I think, foundered on some of the same problems, though overall I think they were about as good of an adaptation as one could possibly imagine (especially the first, which is the most hobbit-ish and the least CRPGish). I suspect other areas of the Ring story could survive this treatment; for example you could be a group of hitherto unheralded Gondorian warriors gearing up for the big battles, evading Nazgul, keeping the border secure, and maybe addressing some substantial side threat we never really heard much about before. <br /><br />Kizor's discussion of the "War of the Rings" game, below, reminds me that there's really a Tokienish precedent for this - Gandalf's "off-camera" activities in <i>The Hobbit</i>, sketched out a bit in the LOTR appendices (and foolishly turned into tone-wrecking padding in the new <i>Hobbit</i> films). It turns out he was off dealing with a disguised incarnation of Sauron called the Necromancer, whose activities in turn explain why Mirkwood was so creepy and dangerous (beyond just being a Scary Old Forest, as seems to have been Tolkien's intention when he was writing the original book). If the game was going to invent so much non-canonical plot anyway, it might as well have conjured up some similar challenges and threats, rather than making you feel like you're participating in the bastardization of Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin...doctorcasinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14185814652737703042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88148943645742570042014-05-21T06:35:53.012-04:002014-05-21T06:35:53.012-04:00There's a board game out there called War of t...There's a board game out there called War of the Ring. It also adds events that never happen in the book, but unlike ice walls near the Shire, many of them feel like alternate history. One of the hobbits can be sent back to the Shire from Rivendell, Gimli can bring the book from Moria to the dwarves and rouse them to war, the Fellowship can cross that mountain and avoid Moria entirely, and (of all things) Sauron can attack Tom Bombadil.<br /><br />These things "could" have happened in the book, and some of them were even brought up in it - Elrond wanted to send Merry and Pippin home.<br /><br />Other events happen like they did in the book, still others can play out differely: Aragorn using the Palantir to bait Sauron has a risk of killing Aragorn. If you have the right expansion, the Ents might march on the forces besieging Lorien.<br /><br />It's an interesting comparison to the plot-twisting going on in this RPG. I suppose the operative word is "can": most of the things are mentioned happen through event cards that are not at all mandatory to play. if Gimli hit a plot trigger in this RPG and left the party to do something that went completely against the book, it'd be ridiculous.Kizornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-63828667584967812612014-05-21T05:05:20.324-04:002014-05-21T05:05:20.324-04:00I always hated that approach, because the only way...I always hated that approach, because the only way to find out you're in the wrong place is to die and reload, and savescumming should never be the expected behaviour, it's just bad design. But Gothics have it even worse, because it's not the matter of what level your character is but rather what armor/spells he has, and those are strictly tied to main quest progression. I mean - what's the point of having an open (if small) world only to make areas still open up at specific points in the plot?VKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26337367801902623192014-05-21T03:53:39.176-04:002014-05-21T03:53:39.176-04:00Takes me back to playing Gothic 1 as a teenager, g...Takes me back to playing Gothic 1 as a teenager, grinding terrorbirds in the forrest on a very low level, and wolves making me run like hell back to the city guards.<br /><br />Made for some good exploration, just trying to test the monsters (and the engine) to find out exactly where you could and where you couldn't go yet.<br />Also a one buggy game with very poor controls..<br />Henryvonkleisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11614744623860886548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-13502279089837225832014-05-21T02:24:03.314-04:002014-05-21T02:24:03.314-04:00Thanks. It does help a little. I perhaps need to a...Thanks. It does help a little. I perhaps need to adjust my perspective on the game a bit. I have a feeling this is one of those games whose "deal" doesn't become clear until you win.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12581939255414921952014-05-21T02:22:42.013-04:002014-05-21T02:22:42.013-04:00Right. I tried "get" after the first enc...Right. I tried "get" after the first encounter with Goldberry, and there was no token to be had. HOWEVER, the problem may be the lead character's inventory was full. The game makes no distinction in reaction or sound between "there's nothing here to pick up" and "there's something here, but you can't pick it up," which has probably gotten me in trouble more than once. Since then, I've cleared inventory space and returned, but either it really is a bug or I needed to pick it up the first time I was in the room.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-48456979245056510462014-05-21T02:20:38.933-04:002014-05-21T02:20:38.933-04:00doctorcasino, great comment and great perspective,...doctorcasino, great comment and great perspective, and I appreciate the additional information from the books. Your second paragraph is exactly what I was trying to get at. I remember the same dissonance when I played some variation of <i>Willow</i> for probably the NES back in the late 1980s. Willow was going along blasting everything with a wand, and I couldn't shake that the game completely missed the spirit and point of the film.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-78216796453195043202014-05-21T02:17:18.041-04:002014-05-21T02:17:18.041-04:00Thanks for the information about Athelwyn. Between...Thanks for the information about Athelwyn. Between this and a few other comments, it appears the programmers anticipated more variances in gameplay than I gave them credit for. CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-33825525811065274892014-05-21T02:16:18.631-04:002014-05-21T02:16:18.631-04:00Yes, that's a good one. It's a slightly di...Yes, that's a good one. It's a slightly different angle (I was talking more about finding the encounters in the first place), but it is an effective way to subtly guide players on a sensible path.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-64566461769963078112014-05-20T21:51:35.526-04:002014-05-20T21:51:35.526-04:00You can bypass Moria ? How? You can bypass Moria ? How? Mickmilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18412076156771519798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9767246262487557212014-05-20T21:06:24.608-04:002014-05-20T21:06:24.608-04:00On your list of ways that CRPGs guide players to i...On your list of ways that CRPGs guide players to important areas, NPCs, quests, etc...<br /><br />I would suggest another common method, though you may not see it as different from #2. Many RPGs use relative difficulty to guide players to where the designers want them to go. Gothic 1 and 2 come to mind. In Gothic 2, for example, the first half of world is fully explorable from the get-go, but many areas are full of monsters that beginning characters have little chance of defeating. Through trial and error (and copious deaths), beginning characters will be pushed toward important NPCs and quests simply because they lie at the end of paths that are guarded by weaker monsters.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08236674968994362673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-45874917799624240902014-05-20T20:54:33.386-04:002014-05-20T20:54:33.386-04:00Zenic,
"Finite and Infinite Games" by J...Zenic,<br /><br />"Finite and Infinite Games" by James Carse explains the difference between CRPGs and table top RPGs fairly well. CRPGs can never not be finite (even MMOs) because they are designed with progression and completion in mind. This gives rise to the "do everything" mentality you describe. On the other hand, table top RPG rules are designed to ensure that play never has to end. Progression is part of play, but there is no achievable end state. You can't win D&D.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08236674968994362673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31388516630623669962014-05-20T19:00:58.109-04:002014-05-20T19:00:58.109-04:00Also I don't think that the tree with the song...Also I don't think that the tree with the songbird tied is unfair, I see more like a way of rewarding exploration since there is another way out of the Old Forest (and described in one book in Brandy Hall) although much longer.Mirirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-78330005811632552852014-05-20T18:37:11.850-04:002014-05-20T18:37:11.850-04:00Maybe I'm wrong but I kind of remember that a ...Maybe I'm wrong but I kind of remember that a NPC points to that tree (a tree near the pool or something like that) in order to find the Red Acorn. I think that it is Goldberry but i'm not sure.<br /><br />The Red Acorn is part of a quest so you can ask people about it. Looks like the problem is that you didn't find the one who gives you the quest.Mirirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-56745138121779468982014-05-20T18:22:58.200-04:002014-05-20T18:22:58.200-04:00The Ford of Bruinen.
Ok, I mean that, she gives/l...The Ford of Bruinen.<br /><br />Ok, I mean that, she gives/lefts it for you, CRPG Addict already stated that there is nothing in the room to take, that's why it looks like it is a bug.Mirirnoreply@blogger.com