tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post1351609584495930897..comments2024-03-29T10:21:29.354-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game EconomiesCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-64170534948830790322022-12-29T10:46:25.801-05:002022-12-29T10:46:25.801-05:00Yeah, not only I had more money that I could spent...Yeah, not only I had more money that I could spent, the problem was that the most expensive weapons I could buy were less powerful that what i'd already got. That was why I meant that the economy system in Mass Effect is broken way before the end of the gameLeo Vellésnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-62858055254304276782022-12-19T18:11:25.559-05:002022-12-19T18:11:25.559-05:00Oh, but I missed the fact that you're commenti...Oh, but I missed the fact that you're commenting on an economy-related entry specifically. Agreed on that. There should always be something to spend money on. Irene and I are replaying <i>Dragon Age: Origins</i> where, if nothing else, you can pay insane amounts of money for skill books that allow you to gain additional skill points, as if you had leveled up. You can also contribute money directly to your army, which I think has an impact on the final battle. I don't know why they didn't offer such options for <i>Mass Effect</i>.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-53349218215977663272022-12-19T18:09:20.119-05:002022-12-19T18:09:20.119-05:00The BioWare style isn't for everyone. It feels...The BioWare style isn't for everyone. It feels like modern RPGs are dominated by four approaches, exemplified by BioWare, Bethesda, <i>Diablo</i>, and <i>Dark Souls</i>. Even though they're all "RPGs," it's hard to love all of them.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-92165599066637943472022-12-05T21:31:33.446-05:002022-12-05T21:31:33.446-05:00Yeah, I'd say ME is great despite its gameplay...Yeah, I'd say ME is great despite its gameplay, not because of it. The storytelling and world building are top shelf but it's not that great at scratching the rpg itch.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-28868812412045367542022-12-05T14:19:05.630-05:002022-12-05T14:19:05.630-05:00I'm reading this blog chronollogicaly, every s...I'm reading this blog chronollogicaly, every single post and comment, cause it is a great blog and I love retrogaming, but I am not a fan of CRPG games. Recently I finished my first CRPG: Mass Effect. IMHO, it is a little overrated. A lot of side missions are dull, the interior settings in most planets are very similar...but what shocked me most, being a first timer in a RPG, was that halfway through the game, Ireached the limit of having 9,999,999 credits and all the economy system felt pointless by that timeLeo Vellésnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35609079189826478872021-03-14T09:11:13.392-04:002021-03-14T09:11:13.392-04:00I agree with the thesis of the post, I like good e...I agree with the thesis of the post, I like good economies, too, and find that they're rare in games. At one stage I was obsessed with how the ludicrous economy of Skyrim should be overhauled, but I'll spare you. Right now I'm playing Wasteland 2, and I'm very happy with the economy so far. There's lots of truly useful things to buy, consumables, weapons, armor, etc. You can never afford everything you want, but you have sufficient cashflow to keep yourself reasonably well equipped and stocked as you go.merlin4012https://www.blogger.com/profile/16300594533601663641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26757450721536875832021-01-04T05:14:43.847-05:002021-01-04T05:14:43.847-05:00Trading is a monotonous way to make a buck in an R...Trading is a monotonous way to make a buck in an RPG though.<br /><br />If you like economics, the best game for you is Victoria 2, imo.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-47329373415693463132021-01-03T23:14:20.991-05:002021-01-03T23:14:20.991-05:00As an economist, I keep searching for a game with ...As an economist, I keep searching for a game with a great economy. I played EVE Online, but came in too late to feel like I can do anything.<br /><br />I play on an Ultima Online shard and the NPC shopkeeps will only buy so many of an item before they cut you off, but that respawns every hour, so uou can get around it.<br /><br />I'd love for supply and demand to show up in a CRPG so I wouldn't be tempted to horde anything with a decent value:weight ratio. The amount of stuff in my Fallout houses/settlements is stupid.Zack Macomberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18077050078436768492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35731368932659528632019-05-27T14:53:03.520-04:002019-05-27T14:53:03.520-04:00One of the most interesting examples of economy in...One of the most interesting examples of economy in game that I've seen was in Pathologic, a 2005 game whose remake/reimagining was released a few days ago.<br />The premise was that you are stranded in a small town quarantined due to an outbreak of an epidemic, and economy reflects the changes that happen in the town over time. Prices fluctuate as you expect them to do in an isolated location with little to no hope of external supply of food and medicine. You can earn money, but the prices are so high that you are going to spend it only for the absolutely necessary and rare things, and mostly resort to barter: different categories of people are interested in different things, and you have to figure out what they want, what they have to offer and where you can get the stuff they need.<br />As a result you get an economy that feels alive and logical - something that can be said about very few in-game economic systems.Dispectornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-82016148234244098902018-08-11T16:38:18.430-04:002018-08-11T16:38:18.430-04:00Oh, I'm *positive* they only see adventurers a...Oh, I'm *positive* they only see adventurers as marks. Remember for whom they work, after all. =DMorgan Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8101604458201195492018-02-13T20:12:26.888-05:002018-02-13T20:12:26.888-05:00I can't remember the game... can't even r...I can't remember the game... can't even remember the context... but, painfully, I remember an occasion where cash was food. Where I was starving. Where every step that didn't yield cash, shortened my odds. I think healing was also tied to cash. The outcome was, every fight didn't provide enough cash to both heal and eat. I remember running a spreadsheet to try to maximize cash per encounter by type. I remember having to restart several times. Funny, I can't put it in a specific game context... <br /><br />I'll look through my games directory to refresh my memory.<br /><br />Could it have been very early in Bloodstone?<br /><br />Maybe early Dungeon Master?<br /><br />I'm sure that it wasn't one of the roguelikes, because you can seldom count on a nearby shop when you need food, in a roguelike, so money wouldn't likely affect starvation.<br /><br />Gosh, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Don't ever get old.<br /><br />Bottom line: vague recollections of a game which was actually winnable if you could survive early game starvation. Only after a lot of play, learning to maximize cash just to eat enough to survive. ...and in which I realized, several times, oh my goodness, I've got a lot of TURNS before I die, but I'm not gonna make it unless I get enough lucky loot just to be able to eat! ...and heal.Rangerous the Secondhttp://www.fategatesofdawn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12777330934012839342017-09-25T08:21:05.269-04:002017-09-25T08:21:05.269-04:00I totally agree that the economy in Morrowind is b...I totally agree that the economy in Morrowind is broken - as it is in every Elder Scrolls game - especially if you don't use a mod to postpone the Dark Brotherhood attacks introduced by the Tribunal Expansion, as the assassins leave you with the second best light armor in the game in potentially unlimited amounts - keep one and sell the rest, and you can pretty much skip all the low-level equipment and never have any financial problems. It really ruins the early game for me. On the other hand, while you do end up with staggering amounts of money nonetheless in the later stages of the game, you can also pay A LOT for having items enchanted, so at least some of it can be put to good use. Of course, all this just serves to make your character even more overpowered, especially in the unmodded game, to the point of being virtually invincible.Pherimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182267498685152997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-42054506879234619572015-07-04T02:14:32.031-04:002015-07-04T02:14:32.031-04:00Yes. In Might & Magic V: Darkside of Xeen, at ...Yes. In Might & Magic V: Darkside of Xeen, at a certain point you have to progress to a difficult dungeon, with all other accessible dungeons usually being plundered empty by then. Progressing from level 4 to 5 in this dungeon requires a "donation" of about 300,000 gold. The first time I played the game I had been very careless with money (also, levelling up is an incredible money-drainer in that game), and I barely managed to proceed by selling a few precious pieces of equipment.<br /><br />Of course, if you're playing modestly reasonable (like keeping your bank account filled for interest from the beginning etc.), this isn't too much of a hurdle, but the possibility is definitely there.The Architecthttp://ancient-architects.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-5962507429442618742014-04-11T12:12:59.006-04:002014-04-11T12:12:59.006-04:00The concept seems old, but all the sources listed ...The concept seems old, but all the sources listed on the wiki page are within the last half century or so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name<br /><br />If you can imagine the true name of something like a password to unlock its inner-workings, then it's not quite as absurd. Using it to circumvent the final boss is a bit silly though, not sure why they put that into a game.<br /><br />As for D&D, I think the lore goes into some detail about demons and angels true names holding power over them.Zenic Reveriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16441583549326102945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9196278394593416512014-04-11T11:04:46.893-04:002014-04-11T11:04:46.893-04:00"That said, I found the whole concept of &quo..."That said, I found the whole concept of "true names" to be a bit absurd. I don't know if they exist anywhere else in the D&D multi-verse, but I rather hope not."<br /><br />I have come across this in a few fantasy books. If memory serves, the excellent "Earthsea" is one such book where knowing the true name of someone gives you power over them. It might even be a feature of Tolkien, but after a while all these fantasy books blend into one, don't they?Fiendishgameshttp://www.fbgames.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9704921135077592012013-07-03T04:15:53.750-04:002013-07-03T04:15:53.750-04:00Thanks for the reply! I'm working through the ...Thanks for the reply! I'm working through the archives, and loving every minute of it!<br /><br />Yeah, you're definitely right there. I don't think players should be protected from 'welp, gotta grind', exactly - and if anything, 'I spent too much money on s*** I didn't need, now I gotta raise a bunch more!' is a problem to which RPGs are perfectly situated to provide potentially interesting solutions, both from a mechanical and a role-playing perspective. <br /><br />My favourite bit of Baldur's Gate 2 is at the beginning, where you're balancing a budget, actively seeking income to reach a set target but sometimes having to making purchases from those funds to equip the party with. It's a brilliant meta-goal that I'm amazed more RPGs haven't made use of - far more dynamic and rich (sorry!) than your usual motivational backside-booting of 'go thou and collect these four plot macguffins, - and be grateful I'm letting thee pick the order!' It allows for your progress to go backwards as well as forwards. It allows for short-term pain vs long-term gain type scenarios. It makes window shopping for all the top-level gear *deliciously* painful.<br /><br />Woah, totally straying from the topic. Yeah, I don't think players should be protected from misspending their money. But I think developers do all the same, to an extent. For example, and totally challenge this if you think it's off, but I suspect there's something of an inverse law of utility to expense in RPG prices. If you *need* something, it won't be crazy expensive*. Whereas if it's a luxury, the price will be higher**. Combined with other mitigating tools available to the developer that you rightly pointed out - townsperson warnings, mysterious riddles, other hints - a player can make the right purchases necessary to progress without going broke. <br /><br />Of course, this will make the life of a savvy hoarder that much easier, leading back to a potential problem of excess wealth..<br /><br />* Okay, so there are clear exceptions. Resurrection spells in Wizardry and Stone-to-fleshification in the Bard's Tale notwithstanding!<br />** all of this in line with the general inflation that occurs as you move up the levels, natch. Nothing's quite so flagrantly game-y as the prices of inns going up in a perfect line with your quest's itinerary!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-33528689933424448272013-07-03T00:52:33.112-04:002013-07-03T00:52:33.112-04:00Good analysis, and thanks for commenting on an old...Good analysis, and thanks for commenting on an old posting. There are, of course, myriad ways to design the game to account for some of these problems; for instance, through an NPC that warns about the snakes, or a shopkeeper who sells the antidotes closer to where you encounter them. I agree with what you mean about different playing styles. I suppose I would object to an RPG in which you absolutely HAD to spend money to win, but in such cases it would be hypocritical to then object that you end the game with too much money.<br /><br />It would be an unforgivable design mistake to force the player to buy a certain quest item (or to make the game functionally unwinnable without certain weapon and armor purchases) and then put the player in a position where he or she doesn't have enough money. Almost all games support grinding for gold for just this type of eventuality. Can you think of any games where it's really possible to get into a "no win" situation because you spent all your cash?CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-56745303400237616312013-07-02T09:41:22.784-04:002013-07-02T09:41:22.784-04:00...painfully insufficient if you encounter *eleven......painfully insufficient if you encounter *eleven*, that should read. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24902683981271378372013-07-02T09:37:29.426-04:002013-07-02T09:37:29.426-04:00I agree that it feels wrong, really wrong to have ...I agree that it feels wrong, really wrong to have reached a point where you've built up too much money. It's immersion breaking; it calls to your attention that you're playing a game. I guess one of the major problems in trying to solve this is that the best solution can also break immersion: an economy too tailored toward the player sticks out, after all, like 2d4 points of damage to the thumb. <br /><br />In that, it's a little like another, much more-commonly observed RPG design rule, that every optional area/nook/side-corridor leading away from the main quest/dungeon breadcrumb trail should have a chest, unique NPC/encounter or other reward at the end of it, placed there by the developer to reward curious players and to make them feel they didn't get their chain yanked by a 'smartass designer' who sent them on a fruitless goose chase (uh, gooseless goose chase? Fruitless fruit chase?), fighting a half-dozen additional encounters for no good reason. <br /><br />On the one hand, this makes a game world more provably fun and less frustrating to explore. But if it becomes obvious that *everything* in the game has been placed there for the players benefit, the authenticity of the game's fiction and world-building will take a knock in the player's eyes. Some call this 'theme park' design. <br /><br />The other problem is balancing the economy for the wide, wide spectrum of possible player types. This runs the gamut from profligates to hoarders, and neither of the extremes nor anything between them is provably the correct approach because you'll typically have no idea what exactly you're going to need. A splurge on 10 stacks of antidote might seem wise if you then, three hours later, encounter Snakes eight times, but needlessly spendthrifty if you only encounter one, needlessly skinflint if you encounter eighty and painfully insufficient if you encounter nine.<br /><br />Beyond this, the hoarders have their own subtypes. Some will never buy consumables. Some will never *use* consumables. Some will even skip non-consumable purchases, such as better armour and equipment, reasoning (usually correctly) that better gear than is available in town shops awaits them in the dungeons below. <br /><br />But the game has to be balanced to make it playable for all of these potential types of player - and the player who finds themselves with too *much* money presents a much smaller problem than the player who, having spent the lot on item X, has too little for necessary item Y and thus is unable to complete the game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60350959761890620022012-12-13T17:17:06.044-05:002012-12-13T17:17:06.044-05:00Agreed.
SCII has action-based combat, which is g...Agreed. <br /><br />SCII has action-based combat, which is good and bad. One side effect is that once you're good enough as a player, the entire game can be won off of a single escort, making money far less useful.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777871196849392264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9512789523150468092012-12-13T16:37:04.149-05:002012-12-13T16:37:04.149-05:00I see what you're saying, but even the "m...I see what you're saying, but even the "money sinks" are more than most games give us; most games just leave us with hundreds of thousands of gold pieces at the end, and nothing to do with them. I haven't tried SCII, but if it's as you say, I agree that's a better approach. <i>Star Command</i> was a recent game I played in which I never got anywhere near the best ship or equipment before the end.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58457490425442613012012-12-13T01:20:34.445-05:002012-12-13T01:20:34.445-05:00I'm in complete agreement with your basic opin...I'm in complete agreement with your basic opinions on game economies. I want my money to mean something. I want it to be hard to get, but not impossible. I want a message saying "You just gained X gold pieces!" to brighten my day. Some games do a great job of this in the beginning, but most fall flat by the end.<br /><br />I do have one point of disagreement, however: in games such as Might & Magic VI (which is a favorite of mine!), the primary use of money late-game is training and then the well, and both of these seem less like economy and more like artificial money-sinks purely to pretend that there's an economy. They do still make money tighter, which is a plus, but contrast with, say, Star Control II, where outfitting your whole fleet the way you want it is very difficult even late in the game, and even though none of the prices of anything has changed since the beginning.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777871196849392264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-52625185279503986752012-10-16T14:10:57.753-04:002012-10-16T14:10:57.753-04:00In Fallout New Vegas, NPCs have a finite amount of...In Fallout New Vegas, NPCs have a finite amount of cash. They do not protect it very wisely, so you can usually bankrupt them one way or another. At the limit, though, you can't take more money from them than they actually have.<br /><br />Ohkenhttp://shiftingnature.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24520300606434596342012-10-11T10:00:22.519-04:002012-10-11T10:00:22.519-04:00It's truly strange. They're quite potent a...It's truly strange. They're quite potent as well, not that you'd ever want to fire one! The poison arrows are also worth a lot, ~100k per stack of 99.<br /><br />Spiderweb Software's games usually have pretty good economies. It may be impossible to buy every stat increase in many of their games. Early on you have to scrounge just to find the money for raising characters that have died. You're in for a treat when you finally play them.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67551741039910178222012-10-10T14:05:59.429-04:002012-10-10T14:05:59.429-04:00Huh. I had no idea. Why would poison bolts be wort...Huh. I had no idea. Why would poison bolts be worth so much?CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.com