 |
| I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised. |
I ended my last entry frustrated with Star Trail,
primarily because (although I didn't emphasize this well enough), I
felt like I was having to repeat too many things. Because I somehow
broke the intended quest sequence, I had to repeat Lowangen twice, and
for various reasons I documented earlier, I had to repeat the
Netherswamp three times. I have quit entire games rather than spending an hour re-doing something that I've already done, let alone the multiple hours involved here.
At the end of the last session, what
was blocking me from progress had to do with the game's two options for
movement. I had been using the one that moves the party in discrete
squares, like most "blobber" games before Ultima Underworld upended
that entire convention. The other option is continuous movement, which I
do not like here because it causes the screen to bank as you turn right
and left, as if the entire party is riding a motorcycle. Nonetheless,
there are some encounters that only trigger when you're in this latter
mode, including one that was vital to rescuing the lost soldier Agdan,
reuniting with the rest of my party, and getting the hell out of Lowangen.
 |
| There we go. |
A
vital chest, half-buried in the swamp, only activates if the party is
in continuous mode. Even then, it's a struggle; I had to approach it
from multiple directions before it finally triggered.
Defenders of the game will find a way to justify this, but I don't think
it's generally good game design to offer two movement modes and then
penalize the player for choosing one of them. This
chest wasn't the only thing affected by the mode.
Other small treasures—ones that I didn't find while stepping on every square—now activated. Railings between walkways and water squares were now suddenly
passable. The door to a nearby building that had not previously
responded now gave me an infinitely-repeatable (I assume) battle with
zombies.
The chest had a document
that talked about the ecology of the swamp rantzy and the fact that
"potent transformation magic is possible" when binding the beast to a
heather bush.
 |
| Good thing killing the bush was never an option. |
My
next task was to find heather, which involved revisiting pretty much
every part of the map until I got a message that there was some growing
along the shoreline. One more complaint I have about this game is that some special
encounters are visible in the game window and others just require you
to stumble upon them. That's not so bad by itself; it was true of Wizardry and The Bard's Tale and every Gold Box game. But Star Trail makes
it a bit harder by filling in automap squares that you've only looked
at, regardless of whether you've stepped in them. This makes it difficult to keep track of places that you haven't yet explored. I could overcome
this problem by making my own maps, but that seems silly with what is
otherwise such a solid automapping mechanic.
Now,
I don't know what the hell was happening with this heather encounter.
The game told me there were 20 heather plants, and it gave me options to
take a closer look at them or to pull them out of the ground. Either
way, I had to specify a number between 1 and 20. Every single one that I
tried to look at said, "It is a particularly strong plant." Every
single one that I pulled out of the ground said: "You discover nothing
special besides the fact that the bushes are extraordinarily strong."
However, when I pulled #18, the game told me that: "The rantzy you are
carrying gives a single loud howl and then goes all slack." The best I
can figure is that the game was running an "Herb Lore" check in the
background, and I was supposed to notice something special about #18
when I looked at it. Still, making me go through all 20 of the damned
things seems silly; was there a clue I missed somewhere that #18 was the
answer?
 |
| If they're all "particularly strong" then none of them are particularly strong. |
Curing
Agdan was then a process of double-clicking on the right heather, which
was difficult because I had 18 of the damned things and they all looked
the same. I reloaded and went right for #18, then used it. I got a fun
cinematic of Agdan throwing off the net we had trapped him in, then
turning back into a human, albeit a naked, wounded, and diseased one. We
dealt with the latter two conditions the next time we camped.
 |
| I like how he collapses after the transformation and thus ends up the way he started. |
We
exited the swamp to the northwest, which required us to take a long
loop to the north, then east, then south, passing through Gashok (which
seems like a lifetime ago) on the way back down to Lowangen. It took
about two weeks. Agdan kept getting diseased from walking barefoot, so
we stopped in Gashok to buy him some boots and pants before continuing
on.
 |
| And some rations. |
Some notes on the road:
- I've
leveled Gnomon high enough in "Survival," "Track," and "Bind" that he
almost always finds water and food when we camp. I believe finding water
keeps us from drinking out of our water skins and finding game keeps us
from eating rations. I suspect only "Survival" is really necessary, but
I found the manual's description of the other two ambiguous enough that
I've been putting points into it. While we're on the subject of skills,
what does "Orientation" actually do?
 |
| A typical night on the road. |
- We
had to reload one night after being attacked in our sleep by a pack of
eight tigers. That's a lot for five characters, one of them unarmed.
- A
man asked to join us one night to share our fire and a bit of food. We
agreed. He told us about the surrounding area, which filled in the
travel routes on our map. But he also stole 20 gold pieces when he left.
 |
| "Could you stake a fellow American to a meal?" |
- On
the way back to Lowangen, we came to a river crossing with a ferry, but
no ferryman in sight. We had options to wait for him or just operate
the ferry ourselves. I chose the latter, and there was a fun narration
as we misread the currents, couldn't control the ferry, overturned in
the river, and Toliman drowned. I promise that after we get out of
Lowangen again, I'll try to roll with character deaths and get them
resurrected, but in this case, I just reloaded and waited for the
ferryman, who charged 3 silver pieces per person and got us all to the
other side safely.
 |
| Option #3: Not a good idea for airports, not a good idea for ferries. |
- A forest gnome continues to appear every once in a while when we camp, strike one blow (usually against Gnomon), and then flee.
 |
| I feel like we're becoming friends. |
Once
we got back to Lowangen, I kept running into the orcs and had to turn
around. I couldn't remember the exact route we had used to escape the
city in the first place. Fortunately, I had a saved game from just
before we left, but it took me a while to remember that. Once I figured
out the correct route, I was able to re-enter the city using the
tunnels.
Master
Eolan was delighted that Agdan was rescued. I'm curious what happens if
you return to Lowangen with Agdan still in rantzy form. In any event,
Lyra and Lilii Borea rejoined the party, and we got the hell out of
there at last. I felt a little bad about leaving them to the mercies of
the orcs, but I don't think we were meant to solve that quest.
 |
| Get me the galloping @#&% out of here. |
We
were on our first segment out of the city when we were interrupted by a
cut scene. An evil wizard appeared in front of us: "Halt! Stay where
you are!" He went on to demand the Salamander Stone, and we had options
to give it over or refuse. The former response ("That stupid old rock!
There, take it!") was honestly tempting, but I did what I thought I was
supposed to do and refused. This brought us to a battle with six
"combat magicians" and four or five rogues. I tried my own tactics; I
tried the computer's tactics; I tried auto-combat. Nothing I did would
let me even come close to winning this battle. Most of the time, I
couldn't even act. The mages generally petrified and blinded most of my
characters in the first round.
 |
| The impossible (for me) battle. |
I'm
sure it's possible to win this fight for some players, perhaps if they
spent some time building the party to higher levels, but my impression
is that it's not meant to be won. Thus, I grudgingly reloaded and handed
over the Salamander Stone, easily the most troublesome MacGuffin in RPG
history. They also took my fake one, I later discovered.
"The
mages disappear to the west," the game said. I didn't know if we were
supposed to follow them or what. West at the time was back to Lowangen,
so I reluctantly went there and back through the tunnel. No one had any
new dialogue options about MAGICIANS or anything. I asked Dragan about
the Salamander Stone. He made me run an annoying errand only to just
give me the same hint about the Orc Death that he would have given
before we recovered the stone weeks ago. (Just to be sure, I went to the
Orc Death and found nothing.) I reloaded from outside Lowangen and took
paths to the northwest and southwest. I even ran around the Netherswamp
again. None of it was to any avail. I guess if I'm meant to find the
stone again, it will be part of a longer journey to the west.
 |
| Dragan's "errand" had us jumped by thugs—who then released us without doing anything to us. I don't really know what this was about. |
Whatever
the solution, I hope it will keep. I had already decided that after I
got out of Lowangen, I was going to go after Star Trail, the throwing
axe, for which my next move was to ask around Tiefhusen. I had also
decided I wasn't going to be in a hurry to get there. There are
supposedly valuable side-paths in this game, and I thought I'd try to
find some of them.
I
began by taking us back to Gashok, where it was fortunately market day
when we arrived. We spent some of our money on magic potions (I'm sick
of running out), extra boots (they keep wearing out), a fishing hook,
sleeping bags, and a few other sundries. I ran into encumbrance problems
here despite the Girdles of Might (the metal armor I got from Ailian
Silversprings' allies weighs a lot), and I spent a lot of time shuffling items.
 |
| Reaching Gashok again. |
Tiefhusen
is west-northwest of Gashok. The world map shows a road leading from
Gashok north to where the game began. Tiefhusen is on a parallel
northern road. On the world map, no road connects them without going
south all the way to Lowangen and the Netherswamp. I decided to see if
there was anything west of the road north of Gashok, if that makes
sense. I figured that the worst that would happen is I'd end up in
Kvirasim again, in which case I'd reload (if literally nothing had
happened on the way) or make my way back.
I
continued on for a while, getting whacked by forest gnomes, fighting
nighttime enemies (I used computer combat for a lot of them), dealing
with occasional diseases, building my herb stock. I needn't have
worried: there were plenty of western routes. I took the northernmost
route possible, exploring every spur that I found along the way.
We
crossed a muddy area in which Gnomon sank in the mud, but we rescued
him with a rope. It was a waste of time. The road ended in the "Brinask
Marshes," and we had to turn back. I later discovered Gnomon had lost
his shield and axe in the mud. Fortunately, I had spares.
 |
| We did get a warning. |
After about three weeks on the road, following a northern loop that took us past a lake, we landed in the city of Tjolmar. It was a modest-sized burg, not a menu-town, with the typical services. It had a lot of temples—Ifirn, Firun, Rahja, Ingerimm, others—an herbalist, a couple of inns, a couple of taverns, and a couple of smiths. There was no weapon/armor shop, but there was one business type that I don't think I've encountered before: a bank called At the Dreaming Mummy. Here, we could deposit and retrieve items. That could be useful, but it raises a lot of questions. Is the vault linked with other banks in the game? Are there other banks in the game? How often do I expect to be back in Tjolmar? It's not exactly in a central location. This sort of service in Gashok would make more sense.
 |
| I would pay real money to see Bangor Savings Bank rename itself "At the Dreaming Mummy." |
Talking with NPCs, I receive no news about STAR TRAIL or SALAMANDER STONE. I also asked about TJOLMAR itself, and the best I can say is something seems to be going on. "There used to be almost fifty dwarves living in Tjolmar up until a short time ago," NPCs told me more than once. "Nowadays, there are only about ten left." Others said: "Things went too far when the orcs appeared. Apparently, it was something to do with an ancient artifact of Umrazim." Yet another: "People used to be a bit nervous here, since that thing with the orcs happened." These comments resulted in no new dialogue options, and I wasn't able to find any encounters related to them. People kept telling me to see the "pileworks," but I don't even know what that was.
 |
| That's ominous. |
We visited a tavern where one dialogue option (RAHJA, a god) seemed out of place, and before we knew it, we had spent the night in a brothel.
 |
| To be fair, this kind of thing has happened to me in New Orleans. |
There was one house with a magically-locked door. None of our resources or spells would allow us to penetrate it. In fact, even attempting to cast "Foramen" drained our health.
 |
| The result of casting "Analyze" on the door. |
We reluctantly moved on, unable to figure out anything else to do. We were at the far western side of the map at this point, not too far from Tiefhusen to the southeast. I decided to head there but explore any side roads or spurs on the way. The road paralleled a river. A day into the trip, we reached Norhus, a travel stop where we could stay at an inn, switch to a ferry, or continue on foot. While talking to the owner, Endor Jorndal, he had a response to INGRAMOSCH: "That's more or less the chieftain of those Tjolmar traitors. He just went back to Tjolmar a short while ago after hiding out in Lowangen for quite some time."
What?! My random exploration pattern somehow landed me in the town where Ingramosch had gone, and I missed him? And what's this about "traitors"? I realized I hadn't asked everyone in Tjolmar about INGRAMOSCH, so I turned around and headed back to the town and started feeding the word to everyone.
 |
| One wonders how most dwarves smell. |
I didn't learn much. The owner of one inn said that Ingramosch used to hang out at the temple of Rahja and that his house was "right by the old bridge," which would have been more helpful if there were any bridge in the city. (The house with the magically-locked door is at least near a river.) The priestess of Rahja said that he hasn't been by in a couple of weeks. "I think he tried to recruit compatriots here," she added. Is that why there are no more dwarves in town? Another NPC told me that he had a quarrel with other dwarves recently, though, and that he "used to be with that female smith a lot." But the only female smith, Halrima, had nothing to say in response to his name. In response to DWARVES, she said: "All that talk about the traitors of Tjolmar is poppycock." I couldn't get out of anyone what the so-called treason was actually about.
 |
| Could you elaborate on the whole "traitors" thing? |
This may be one of those situations where you have to ask multiple times, but remember, NPCs end conversation after a few keywords they don't like, and you can't try again until the next day. Saving and reloading gets old in these situations. Anyway, I hadn't intended to pursue this part of the quest yet, so after running out of ideas a second time, I hit the road again for Tiefhusen.
I guess I've gotten to the point that I don't mind travel as much as before. There's always a sense of possibility, and the little things that happen on the road can be fun. But commenters have talked about side-dungeons and stuff, and if these exist, I've been spectacularly unlucky in finding them.
Time so far: 37 hours
"Agdan kept getting diseased from walking barefoot, so we stopped in Gashok to buy him some boots and pants before continuing on."
ReplyDeleteIs anyone else reminded of the scene in the first two Terminator movies where Arnie arrives from the future?
You've certainly chosen an interesting point to sequence-break. Normally, you're supposed to follow the mages immediately, and there are a few encounters that lead you on the right path (not sure how much Tracking skill is involved in it). It's possible to find it again without doing this, but IIRC there are no direct clues as to where you need to go. There are indirect clues, though, which you already have.
ReplyDeleteThe battle with the mages is indeed not supposed to be won. It's technically possible to win it (an imported party, or a party that has done more traveling around, would have more success), but that might lead to a very nasty walking dead scenario. There's a bit of disagreement in different sources as to whether defeating the mages in itself completely screws the game, or only in combination with one other (avoidable) encounter. So it's better to roll with the punches.
Ailian in Lowangen has already told you to seek Ingramosch in Tjolmar - it's right in your first Lowangen post. So I'm surprised to see you surprised by that. People in Lowangen have also told you where to look for him if he's not in Tjolmar.
If you think of it, all of the Lowangen and Swamp quests are side quests - nothing you do in the city that is plot-critical; you just get the clues as to where to look for Ingramosch next. It's perfectly possible to finish the game without ever visiting Lowangen or the Swamp, or to visit them before going to Finsterkoppen. The latter would not only save you the Gavron quest, but also the encounter with the mages and thus make the next dungeon you'll have to do optional. Gashok is fundamentally a side quests too - while Artherion does direct you to Finsterkoppen, you can also just find the city on your own, exploring the overworld map. But you're very close to discovering another side quest, this one in the very proper sense of the word, so soldier on.
I need to do a better job looking over my old notes. I had it in my head that Ingramosch was somewhere in the Blood Peaks.
DeleteAssorted stuff:
Delete"I had to repeat the Netherswamp three times" -- I'm not sure why. If you had a save before you returned to Lowangen and lost the rantzy, you could have just gone to the chest without redoing the level.
"Defenders of the game will find a way to justify this, but I don't think it's generally good game design" -- I don't think any of us think that it's good or acceptable design - or even design per se rather than a bug or oversight. Just that it's not that much of a big deal and can be figured out without spoilers.
"was there a clue I missed somewhere that #18 was the answer?" - nope, the rantzy's reaction to it is the clue. The swamp is not the best or most logical dungeon in the game, to put it mildly, no argument there.
"While we're on the subject of skills, what does "Orientation" actually do?" -- allegedly, reduces travel times.
Blood Peaks isn't wrong either. The exact info is "if Ingramosch has left the Blood Peaks already, it will probably be for the city of Tjolmar."
DeleteAnd one final thing:
Delete"NPCs end conversation after a few keywords they don't like, and you can't try again until the next day" -- which is how the game is supposed to be played. There's plenty of stuff to do at the inn (recover from the road, do stuff rituals, brew potions - once you have the alchemy set). So you settle into this rhythm of investigating, then doing inn stuff or foraging in the vicinity of the town, then investigating again. I had the impression that the party leader's Charisma and/or social skills have some effect on how many things you can ask, but don't quote me on that.
NPCs ending conversation like that is another thing that I'd say works well in tabletop, but not so much in a CRPG.
DeleteAgreed. Even if there's stuff to do in the Inn and stats to give you more options, it's just not a fun game mechanic because ultimately, it doesn't add any flavor or challenge but just simply tedium.
DeleteIt does its job in the sense that it forces the player to carefully weigh their dialog choices rather than just mindlessly clicking through everything. And it's not like the cost of "failure" is something drastic - you just spend a few coins for a night at the inn and then are ready to continue. It's more the case of a 1994 game trying to do something experimental with its dialog system approached from the perspective of 2026, decades after dialog trees became so ubiquitous that it's hard even to imagine something different.
DeleteIt's not a perfect system, of course. It would have been better if patience was a meter (like in a later German mess of an RPG Arcatera) so that you knew how many interactions you have left. It would have been better if you could influence patience directly. It would have been better if it were more consequential (again, in Arcatera it's tied to a time limit and events happening on specific days). But it's not as bad as it sounds - if you approach it as what it's meant to be: a gameplay system to be played with.
Yeah, definitely a tabletop holdover. Some designers just can't get over the fact that they can't force a player to play exactly the way they want them to in a game and resort to hacky mechanics like this one. It's a videogame - sometimes people just want to move forward!
Delete""I had to repeat the Netherswamp three times" -- I'm not sure why." First time: didn't bring enough resources to deal with the totality of combats; couldn't easily get back to Lowangen. Second time: met and killed Agdan in rantzy form before I realized it was him.
DeleteI would be happy enough if keywords whose dialogue had been exhausted with that NPC dimmed or disappeared. No player is going to spend the night, then return and ask the NPCs the same things that caused them to shut down conversation in the first place.
DeleteAccording to this dump of character dialog, you can tell Eolan that Agdan is dead and he accepts the fact: https://dev.arkania.online/load/star_trail/master_eolan/2-1-0-383
DeleteIt's unclear, though, if that only applies if he dies after you remove the curse.
This has nothing to do with 2026 standards; by 1994 standards, this kind of "dialog fatigue" is also annoying. Yes, they were trying something new, and no it didn't work too well (and analyzing such new innovations is one of the reasons this blog is here).
DeleteIt's not like dialog trees were NEW in 1994; adventure games started using them five years earlier.
They weren't new, but they weren't as dominant as they are now. I struggle to think of a single RPG from the past 20 years that would use a different dialog system - provided they have interactive dialogs at all. This kind of domination is bound to shape one's expectations and perception, even if one started gaming before that.
DeleteIn 1994, conversely, there wasn't such a standard of what and RPG dialog should do or look like. RPG designers were still experimenting and trying out different things. Not all of them were successful - I'm not saying that Star Trail's was - but it does offer a different vision of social interactions in a CRPGs that could have evolved into something interesting in a few iterations. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), Attic themselves abandoned it in Shadows over Riva in favour of a more straightforward keywords/trees hybrid.
There's one point I'd like to clarify, Chet. You've clearly replayed a lot of content specifically to blog, but separate to that..
DeleteYou've stated a dislike of rapid save scumming in the past, preferring to save at the beginning of an area to maintain a little risk.
Now obviously buggy accidental sequence breaking goe beyond that. But you're clearly replaying some content when you die on a blobber level and have to replay it. I get the time commitment might be shorter.
I'm not sure what my actual question is here. What makes you feel like you're playing for sufficient difficulty vs something more frustration causing. The first swamp reset because your party didn't have the skills and equipment is something foreknowledge helps immensely with
(One of my previous comments holds up, that if you're apprised of some of the bs parts of this game it seems to hold up a little better)
I actually like the sound of the dialogue system, but I recognise I'm in the minority that likes when it's actually possible to fail in a game (I mean something with more substance than a game over/something you can immediately retry).
DeleteMore specifically I like when my actions/choices have consequences, and consequently I'm pushed to consider my options carefully. Without the potential for failure and consequences thereof - even in this case where it's just time and a little money - there's nothing mentally stimulating about that facet of the game. I believe if a game lets you choose every option in something (anything, not just conversation) and there's no cost or downside to choosing any of the options it should offer the choice to just summarize the results of choosing everything - give me "NPC tells you about x, y and z, and gives you i" if that's invariably going to be the outcome anyway.
That text dump reminds me, you can actually insist that you came to sweep the yard to Eolan and do so. I thought that was funny.
DeleteAfter that, my dwarf interrupted him asking for payment. I assume it's actually just the character with the highest avarice.
> I actually like the sound of the dialogue system, but I recognise I'm in the minority that likes when it's actually possible to fail in a game
DeleteYep I like playing through failures too, but it's good to know when you've failed. In this case, not knowing when you've exhausted someone's dialogue becomes a guide dangit situation
@VK, "orientation" affects your behaviour in a dungeon, particularly if one of the characters is separated and without a light source. If he/she has low orientation, they will not be able to use automap, and will start panicking regarding their location, I think, up to fainting. It's one of the things you notice when you don't have it.
Delete"One wonders how most dwarves smell."
ReplyDeleteIf you don't let out the water in the Finsterkoppen, your dwarf would have refused to enter the water in the flooded area, complaining that washing once a month was already a silly habit that he was talked into. That should give you an idea.
(I'm not sure if that is canon or just the game - never played a Dwarf in tabletop)
The dwarves of Tjolmar played an important part in the Orcish invasion of the Svelt valley. I'm not sure if the game explains it in more detail, and if this was canon worked into the game, or this part of the game became canon - so I'll refrain from posting a link until later.
The idea that dwarves are unclean is a widespread rumor in this game world.
DeleteThe betrayal of the Tjolmar dwarves, who facilitated the orcs' passage (and equipped them with siege weapons) in exchange for an artifact and sparing the town of Tjolmar, was canon about 3 years before Star Trail came out.
I honestly can't say how much of that can be found in Star Trail.
It's hinted at, at least. I'm not sure anymore if I read about the fulls story of the betrayal of the dwarves in Tjolmar in game or in one of the online sources.
DeleteI'd guess with their nose
DeleteThe way you frame it, the game *does* feel like an exercise in masochism. Strange, because I wasn't remembering it that way...
ReplyDeleteMe neither, but experiences can vary and it was quite some time ago for me. Maybe I was more forgiving because justified or not I liked it more then the first. When I played it I thought it to be more straightforward than the first one which felt like even more wandering somewhat aim- and cluelessly all over the map most of the time. Strange thing is it sounds like this one isn't that much of a difference after all.
DeleteMy experience with Star Trail 30 years ago was similar to Chet’s here. After joyous experiences with SSI gold box, Jrpgs, MUDs, and Betrayal at Krondor, I eagerly bought Star Trail on limited budget. I trudged along with seemingly random clues, waiting for the big rewarding feeling of playing a “complex” crpg. But it never came, and I got stuck and quit. Contributed strongly to me losing interest in crpgs for a long time. Woe is me, for then I missed Diablo, Fallout, Baldurs Gate, etc back then. I curse Star Trail.
ReplyDelete"Defenders of the game will find a way to justify this, but I don't think it's generally good game design to offer two movement modes and then penalize the player for choosing one of them."
ReplyDeleteI agree, this is not a design at all, but or oversight! How would that make sense as a design?
Gladly, to my knowledge, this only occurs on objects in the Netherswamp.
Why did your party leave the swamp in the northwest and then take a wide detour? There are many exits all around. Overall, orientation on the world map seems to cause minor problems here. What is the reason for this?
I fully expected you to pursue the magicians immediately (and with "rush march"-setting (or however it is called in English)).
There would've been some clues to the pursuit along the way, including in dialogues. However, it's no problem to take completely different routes and orders.
"At the Dreaming Mummy" is not a bank, but a kind of pawnbroker or warehouse.
You can store items there. There are 3 of these houses in the game: in Lowangen, Tjolmar and Tiefhusen. They are not connected to each other.
An important word of advice for Tiefhusen:
If you have an appointment, you must be on time!
Addendum: The "stupid design" I've mentioned earlier referred to what happens if you bump into the chest before Master Eolan's quest.
DeleteYeah, I'm in two minds about Chet sequence-breaking here. On the one hand, the pursuit of the mages is one of my favourite sequences in the game because of how it gives you the feeling of desperately chasing someone through largely untamed wilderness. On the other hand, he probably doesn't need more desperation than he already got.
Delete["At the Dreaming Mummy" is not a bank, but a kind of pawnbroker or warehouse.
DeleteYou can store items there. There are 3 of these houses in the game: in Lowangen, Tjolmar and Tiefhusen. They are not connected to each other.]
This is good advice since, if I'm not mistaken (and as someone who has won parts 1 & 3 but not 2) there's another point in the game where you can lose part of your inventory as it happened outside Lowangen.
There is, but it's avoidable. Also, unlike in Lowangen, you get it back eventually.
DeleteYea all the dwarves disappeared, we know that one already.
ReplyDeleteWait, this is Star Trail, not The Elder Scrolls
Didn't that also happen in Ambermoon?
DeleteIt did, and was IMHO one of the things that messed up the pacing of Ambermoon. In a perfect world, the Dwarven disappearance plot would have been the core of the third Amber game (that was never made) rather than making the already-long Ambermoon even longer.
DeleteAgain, what a hostile game, and how I am constantly surprised at the very dry defensive posts of its fans. Like discussing Star Trail is a minefield on itself, way more than Betrayal at Krondor, Lands of Lore or Ultima VII.
ReplyDeleteThe movement bug hiding a treasure chest (and this is clearly a bug, not an intentional design decision, right?) seems like a good litmus test - if you're defending that, you must like this game so much that you've lost your common sense.
DeleteIsn't it against common sense to expect the chest bug to be a design decision?
DeleteSorry, I am confused. What is wrong here?
Is anyone defending this bug?
If this is an intended feature, then every game crash or the children's picture effect in some versions of Star Trail or the never-ending servant strike in Ultima Underworld II or the Minus World in Super Mario Bros would also be intentional.
@Risington, why do you jump to conclusion that the posts about Star Trail are from the game FANS as opposed to just people who happened played it? I don't remember any concentrated fandom of Star Trail anywhere in comments on this blog, or declaring it next big thing since Shin Megami Tensei. Why don't you assume that the discussion is driven by experienced players (of which you can count me out), who just seem numerous because Star Trail was pretty popular in Germany, and this blog has a big reader base there, as the recent survey showed?
DeleteI mean, count my opinion on Star Trail itself out, I don't care, but you seem to invent a pretty big and involved fandom where there simply isn't one.
Here's the thing: many of the official adventures of "Realms of Arcadia" at the time were railroading players *VERY* hard, and sometimes to a frustrating degree. Losing all your items? Happened regularly. Unable to continue? You probably missed talking to the ONE NPC or failed to mention a particular keyword to them. Missed a particular skill check? Sorry, the adventure doesn't advance if you don't make the roll.
ReplyDeleteStuff like that happened constantly in the official modules. Now, a seasoned DM knows how to deal with such situations, hand wave something here, add an alternate solution there. But on the whole, it was not an unusual DSA experience to have.
"Star Trail" was known to be *VERY* faithful to the Pen & Paper experience... unfortunately, that also includes the aforementioned situations.
For a player of the tabletop game, this felt like part of the experience.
For those who weren't fans, well...they tended to feel about as frustrated as you do...
It seems more like 50/50 to me - in some cases that's true, while in other cases Star Trail goes to far greater length than most RPGs of the era to cushion failures and offer alternative solutions (the back entrance to the mines, two ways of finding out that Ailian has the Stone, that Eolan's quest can still be completed if you failed to keep Agdan alive etc.). Not to mention the open world approach, which allows skipping large parts of the game or doing them out of order - with the plot still making as much sense (unlike, say, in Black Gate).
DeleteThis is bad design, but surely the opposite of railroading. Failing the adventure due to a botched skill check seems more like an extreme OSR approach of favouring consequences to me.
DeleteIt's railroading in the sense that the train can stop entirely but it cannot go off the tracks.
DeleteThere's a school of thought within tabletop D&D that all skill checks must be doable by the weakest character, so that if the adventure (e.g.) requires "the PCs must make a swim check to cross the river" then it's guaranteed that every PC can make that check by rolling often enough.
(yes, that is bad adventure design; but it is also less work; turns out it's easier to change the rules so that all skill checks can be passed by everyone, than it is to write better adventures)
@Anonymous, I think Age of Decadence successfully demonstrated that even if there are multiple choices based on different skill checks, it is possible to paint yourself into a corner by making such choices in the past that any forward progress needs passing checks that are beyond your skill level - and that it can be a GOOD game design.
DeleteThis being said, Age of Decadence is quite explicit about the fact that a skill was checked - something that Star Trail is not. Having the benefit of hindsight, Star Trail would have benefitted a lot if it alerted the player to the fact it checked something; but even the way it actually worked is still way better than either having no meaningful skill checks at all, or doing them so infrequently as to be irrelevant.
Also, in the 90es there was a school of thought that having hidden skill checks (and hidden skill VALUES, for that matter) is a GOOD game design, because it is supposedly "more realistic" (see Ultima 9). While it might be more realistic, it was definitely less fun in practice and went the way of "try to guess what the weapon does by looking at how it behaves".
@RG, I think they key distinction here is tabletop vs CRPG.
DeleteIs the post title a reference to Together Again from Muppets Take Manhattan? I don’t think I’ve seen you quote the muppets before on this blog. I saw that movie when I was 6 or 7 in the theaters, and from what my parents tell me, I was convinced that Kermit was dead after the taxi hit him… I’m told I wouldn’t stop crying.
ReplyDeleteYes. I’m surprised I haven’t quoted the Muppets before. I love the Muppets. Whenever I meet a new person, I give them the “mahna-mahna” test. Only about 20% pass.
DeleteDoot DOOT dododo.
DeleteAt least you guys associate something positive with this melody. As a child, I found it unbearable; I had to turn the sound off. And yet it was so catchy.
DeleteI'm already looking forward to the quote in the title of the next post; and whether I'll be able to figure it out.
Here's a little tip on where to hire an optional helpful, quite combat-ready NPC companion:
ReplyDelete(ROT 13-coded)
Ba gur jbeyq znc, ebhtuyl unysjnl orgjrra Gvrsuhfra naq Tnfubx, gurer'f n pebffebnqf; sebz gurer n yvggyr shegure abegu.
Never heard of that one…
Delete(Rot 13) Guvf fheryl ersref gb gur srznyr jneevbe Xbevzn bs Nggvpn, jubz bar rapbhagref ba gur ebnq; sbe 1 fvyire cvrpr/qnl fur nppbzcnavrf gur tebhc nyzbfg rireljurer. Fur ehaf njnl jura ragrevat gur Arirefjnzc naq n pregnva bgure qhatrba, be (nf nyjnlf) jura nabgure ACP wbvaf ure.
DeleteShe can certainly be helpful to a weak party.
I played this game past year, enjoyed it even if it's not great. I messed with the fake salamander stone, was really annoying. Had to use a guide for the ratzi quest and had to repeat a lot of parts. Annoying and tiring game but still I enjoyed it. I am also enjoying your coverage, as usual.
ReplyDeleteSome hints about inventory management:
ReplyDeleteSleeping bags are the improved version of blankets, you don't need both.
You can see the condition of the boots by moving them to the eye symbol. If you check and replace those in bad shape each time you get near a shop you don't need to carry around many extra pairs.
Generally speaking, information about many objects (weapons, shoes, etc.) and their status can be obtained by dragging them onto the eye icon. (Dragging them onto the mouth icon allows you to "try out" poisons...)
DeleteIn the summer heat:
Deletesleeping bags are actually a disadvantage for recovery. Wearing winter coats over armor while traveling then is also unhealthy. (This, in my opinion, somewhat cumbersome micromanagement was reduced in "Shadows over Riva".)
Further current information (besides punctuality) -without serious spoilers - to ensure everything runs smoothly:
Some tougher battles are coming up; contrary to rumors, magic in the game is never absolutely necessary, only often helpful.
At least a message pops up that the character is suffering under the winter coat.
DeleteI strongly doubt that having sleeping bags in your inventory is disadvantageous (except for the encumbrance).
DeleteThe tool "BrightEyes" confirmed the disadvantages of sleeping bags in rare situations — but contrary to what some tips suggest!
DeleteThe advantages far outweigh the disadvantages:
Better protection against illnesses/chilblades than with a blanket or without any covering at all.
BTW: Robes (of any kind) or winter cloaks (armor +1!) worn over clothing and headwears also reduce the likelihood of contracting weather-related illnesses.
Here is an explanation (in German): https://www.crystals-dsa-foren.de/showthread.php?tid=4689
So I have to admit I was a somewhat wrong about the effect of sleeping bags in the height of summer. So much for the quirky level of detail in Star Trail.
DeleteI suspect the problems you're having (and more) are what kept me from ever finishing these three games when they first came out, since we were lacking the fullness of the Internet in which I could find solutions. You're currently ahead of me in the game because I've been distracted, but thanks to your posts, I'm well-warned now to keep a guide handy (I don't have the patience or time anymore to regularly replay hours of a game because I missed some vital clue or picked a wrong option)!
ReplyDeleteCompared to Star Trail, Shadows over Riva is very straightforward. It has some puzzles but they're all logical, and its gameworld is very small so where to go next is rarely a question. I played it ca. 1997-1998 with no internet and didn't have any problems. Though on the other hand, I didn't have that many problems with Star Trail either...
DeleteInteresting. Personally, I find the third game very accessible, also compared to other CRPGs.
DeleteThe only (but too much) unnecessary hurdles in the first game are the very beginning (without reading the manual carefully I could've struggled), the two ways to reach the final battle and nasty bugs in the floppy disk version.
I may say, the award-winning second game always is indeed a bit incomplete. This playthrough on the blog has also so far repeatedly provided strange (and unfortunately some disappointing) surprises. But all major obstacles should now have been resolved in the playtrough or adressed in the comments.
If "the first game" is Blade of Destiny, then it has a redeeming quality of being played as Pirates! in Arcania (or Darklands), where exploration itself is rewarding enough to justify playing, even if you don't end up winning.
Delete@RandomGamer, yes, I meant "Blade of Destiny". I didn't feel like writing out the names of the games earlier - I should've done.
DeleteI agree "Blade of Destiny" is wonderfully suited for exploring the lands at your leisure, freely scouring many of the 15 dungeons (16 if you count a certain city) in the game, turning back when you are overloaded or too battered and coming back again sometime, and acquiring the sought-after map pieces along the way. The set time limit is very generous.
And the game's music sounds sonorous, medieval and archaic.
So funny storry: I've been playing Warhammer: Rogue Trader over the past month, and generally having a blast. It was somehow giving me a very Star Trail-esque vibe, despite it being a very different game in most aspects. Something about the way it structures its scenarios, and the space travel system seems remarkably similar.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, today I reached Act 3 [nervous laugh emoji]. Rot13 from now on for those who want to avoid mild spoilers: Juvpu vf jura gur tnzr qbrf n erznexnoyl fvzvyne eht chyy gb Ybjnatra - bayl jbefr, nf lbh'er abg bayl fgenaqrq naq fgevccrq bs lbhe trne, ohg nyfb fgevccrq bs lbhe pbzcnavbaf naq uvg jvgu fbzr anfgl veerzbinoyr fgnghf rssrpgf.
I guess that vibe wasn't wrong at all.
This is quite celebrated hostility towards the player! If Star Trail is described as a "hostile game", what about Rogue Trader?
DeleteI think different players will have different definitions of “hostile” and some will enjoy the challenge and rolling with the punches.
DeleteProbably a lot of people would define many modern successful Soulslikes and Roguelikes as “hostile”, “unfair” and “unrespectful of the player’s time”, to which others will just answer “get good”.
I would appreciate a light hint on this one: Is there any way to defeat the basilisk on the far west side of the map? I've tried purchasing mirrors and holding them in both hands. I've tried various spells (but I can only cast them before sleep the previous night, and I don't think they last).
ReplyDeleteReally hard to only give a light hint, so here is a full on spoiler: Lbh pnaabg qrsrng gur Onfvyvfx. Lbh pna va gur UQ erznxr, ohg abg va gur bevtvany.
DeleteMenhirMike Mike is right (and was faster...).
DeleteHowever, vg zhfg or cbffvoyr gb pnfg fcryyf juvyr geniryvat. For example, vs gur cnegl vf orvat sbyybjrq. Unfortunately, I can no longer remember how to do it. It might help someone who has the game on hand.
I wasn't aware of there being a basilisk in Star Trail. My guess would be that it's an event that blocks off further travel to the west. There's an encounter like that to the far east of the map, although that one has at least one winnable fight. I think this goes back to Spirit of Adventure, where these encounters were hooks for further expansions which were never developed.
DeleteIf I recall correctly (!), the basilisk can be approached from two south and north. And beforehand, there are some warning signs (a strange little man dissolves into thin air, scorched, dead land etc.) that something is wrong...
DeleteI'm not sure whether the invincible threat, which is vaguely warned against, is the better design, or the chance to defeat it (with prior knowledge(?) and preparation). What do you think?
In the very early days of DSA, defeating a basilisk was considered the clichéd ultimate heroic deed.
I didn't find a northern route, but I must have missed something. Anyway, thanks, MM and Titus. I might have wasted a lot of time.
Delete