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Did I miss a winged reptilian creature at some point in the game?
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Betrayal at Krondor
United States
Dynamix, Inc. (developer and publisher)
Released 1993 for DOS on floppy disk; re-released in 1994, 1996, and 1998 on CD-ROM, each time with different features
Date Started: 23 July 2024
Date Ended: 21 January 2025
Total Hours: 72
Difficulty: Moderate (3.0/5)
Final Rating: (to come later)
Ranking at time of posting: (to come later)
Summary:
A well-written, prose-heavy sequel to Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga, Betrayal at Krondor concerns the rise of the Moredhel (dark elves) under a new leader and their war on the Kingdom of the Isles. The player takes charge of half a dozen characters, half directly out of the Riftwar pages, as different combinations of 2 or 3 try to make sense of the invasion and the mysterious powers behind it. The game is organized into nine chapters with fixed beginning and end points, but for most of those chapters, the player is free to explore a large game world with numerous battles, encounters, treasures, and side quests.
The interface is distinguished by a continuous-scrolling first-person perspective (still rare for the era), combat on a tactical grid, and an encumbrance system based on volume rather than weight. Character development occurs through the use of attributes and skills. Players have to do a lot of reading, as almost every action is narrated in paragraph form. The text is well-written but leaves little opportunity for role-playing. The plot is canon to the Riftwar franchise and was later novelized by Feist as Krondor: The Betrayal (1998).
*****
Wherever it lands on the GIMLET, Betrayal at Krondor deserves plenty of credit for offering a remarkably fresh and unusual experience. Very few things about it are individually unique, but most things about it are at least rare, and in combination they make the game unique. To list some of these factors:
- The sheer amount of text.
- The reliance on a well-established setting, and the integration of the game's story with the canon of that setting.
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Characters and plot points introduced in this game would continue to fuel novels through 2013.
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- Making the PCs named characters with fixed backgrounds drawn from that setting (half of them have already appeared in the books, and the rest will appear in future books).
- Using only three party members at a time.
- Having the PCs banter with each other during the adventure.
- Narrating each action as if it is a passage in a book.
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This is, conservatively, the 500th time that Pug has been in battle, but he still can't quite make sense of it all.
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- An open world in many of the chapters.
- Swapping the PCs between chapters.
- A 3D perspective with continuous movement in both outdoor and indoor environments.
- Use of real people for portraits and animations.
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"Unbelievably ludicrous" — Jimmy Maher.
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- Combat on an isometric grid.
- Use of that same grid for non-combat trap puzzles. (In this, I think the game is unique.)
- Inventory capacity based on the physical size of objects in the pack.
We could spend hours tracing the progenitors and descendants of just a few of these elements. It's hard to imagine that New World wasn't inspired by the inventory system for Might and Magic VI, for instance, or that the authors of Krondor didn't take inspiration from Circuit's Edge or Interplay's Lord of the Rings games for plot integration. The combat perspective recalls Amberstar and Ambermoon. I swear there was some other game that narrates everything you do as paragraphs, but I can't put my finger on it.
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The inventory screen from Betrayal at Krondor . . .
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. . . and Might and Magic VI (1998).
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Krondor unexpectedly shares some important characteristics with Star Saga, a game that I'm only wrapping up at the same time by virtue of a random roll of the dice back in December. These shared characteristics embody what I like most and least about both games. Both offer an open, nonlinear world when it comes to exploration but a tightly-scripted world when it comes to plot, including essentially no role-playing in either case. (The similarities are likely coincidental; see below.) The open world allows for great variety for the order in which players do things, or skip things, but no variety in the fundamental outcomes of the story. Krondor tells a novel-quality narrative, but it's its narrative, not the player's.
Notice that I used the term "skip" there, not "miss." To me, "miss" suggests unintentionality, perhaps even carelessness, whereas "skip" is a matter of player preference and time management. This is true even when the player doesn't know what he is skipping; if I come to a fork in the road and decide to take the left path without exploring the right path, I have "skipped" the adventures to be found down the right path, not "missed" them.
I say all of this because as we see more open worlds with side quests, optional dungeons, and skippable content, I'm going to have to make harder decisions about what I prioritize. I could have doubled the number of entries on Krondor by exhaustively exploring the world in every chapter, and I suspect some fans of the game would have preferred that. But I'm glad that I skipped some things. I'm grateful for a game that supports skipping things. I like the idea of new adventures over the horizon. I like the thought that if I ever want to come back to a game, I can enjoy a different experience. I am not a "completionist"; I reject the very term. To me, trying to experience 100% of an RPG makes as much sense as going on vacation to an unfamiliar city and insisting that I visit every street. There are too many cities that I haven't visited to spend that much time on one.
Some commenters wanted me to listen to the soundtrack. I agree that it's a superior soundtrack. I honestly could have stood to keep it going while I was playing, as it doesn't just play on an endless loop the way many games of the era do. There's a memorable title theme in 3/4 time and the cutscenes are scored with short, heavily-accented motifs. New tunes pop up during party dialogue, NPC dialogue, combat, and city title screens, but the main exploration window remains mercifully silent. The music has the appropriate tone (no hard-driving techno for
this medieval RPG), has good MIDI instrumentation, and complements the game's atmosphere well. (For more, including things I didn't get to experience first-hand, see this
excellent comment from Wild Juniper.) Credit goes to Jan Paul Moorhead, who we have not encountered before and will not encounter again, as Dynamix, despite its success with
Krondor, never developed another RPG.
We have a lot of post-GIMLET material for this one, so let's get the GIMLET out of the way:
1. Game World. I expect Krondor to do best in this category. In well-written prose, it tells a complex, nuanced, adult plot, well-integrated with Raymond Feist's existing novels, with several fun twists. I like that there's no "evil wizard" but a group of opponents, each of which has their own reasons for their actions. For a perfect score in this category, I ask that the plot respond to the player's choices in a way reflected in the world state and NPC dialogue. That mostly doesn't happen here, primarily because there are so few choices. Everything else is solid. Score: 8.
2. Character Creation and Development. And then we have one of the weakest categories, starting with the defined nature of the characters. Is there a particular reason Owyn couldn't have been more of the player's own creation? "Development" occurs in increments as you use various skills and abilities, leading to higher numbers for the attributes and higher percentages for the skills. But those percentages are only one part of a complex formula that determines success, including equipment, fatigue, and buffing items to the point that I question whether they make all that much of a difference. I guess I'd like your opinion on that. If starting Gorath tried to finish the game with ending Gorath's equipment, would he really have that difficult a time? My skepticism here is why I never really bothered to mess around with the option to "tag" certain skills, and I don't feel like I faced a significant challenge, save for a small handful of battles.
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Final statistics for Owyn.
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I'll say one positive thing, here, and add a point to the score for it: I unexpectedly liked the number of party members. I found that having three members allowed me to think of each as a unique individual and not just playing a role in a "blob." Four would have been okay, too. It makes me wonder why the typical default is six. Score: 3.
3. NPC Interaction. The NPCs in Krondor are often characters from the novels. Even the ones created for this game tend to be fleshed out, with their own personalities and goals. The keyword dialogue system means that you learn a lot about the world from these NPCs. But the lack of dialogue options and role-playing in these encounters (save a very rare "Yes" or "No") option dooms the game to a middling score in this category. Score: 5.
4. Encounters and Foes. Enemies are okay. There are maybe 12-14 different types, and they do have various strengths and weaknesses that you have to adapt to. In this category, I also have to give credit for the fairy chests, the trap puzzles, and the occasional non-combat encounters that require a little imagination and creativity. The game fails to gain a point here for allowing no random battles or grinding. Score: 5.
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Damn. We're in a tight spot.
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5. Magic and Combat. I didn't hate the combat system but I didn't love it. I would have liked a bigger field, so that crossbows could be more relevant. I don't like how easy it was to completely obviate a spellcaster. I would have liked to see more use of terrain. The spell list contains some nice variety, but a few spells are so powerful that you could get through the game with only two or three of them. On the plus side are all of the usable objects, the relative swiftness of the experience, and the auto-combat, which works well against weak enemies. I always like spell systems that let you vary spell power, too. Score: 4.
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I only tried about 20% of these spells.
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6. Equipment. I like the game's inventory mechanics and the way that stores work. I like the variety of usable items. I wish there were more options for melee weapons beyond staves and swords. Armor is even worse, with only one set of "armor" (from cap to boots) and only a couple of upgrades over the course of the game. The repair system adds a little. The clear item statistics and descriptions are a nice bonus, however, and rare for the era; again, it's hard not to imagine an influence on the later Might and Magic games. I would have liked to see some randomization; according to sources I consulted post-games, the items you find on each enemy and in each chest are scripted down to the last coin. Score: 5.
7. Economy. Decent. I played too conservatively with money. Cash is useful for equipment upgrades, usable items, healing, blessing, spells, training, and teleporting, and a player who wants to run around collecting items and selling them can make about as much as he wants. It's just too bad that owing to the nature of the chapters and how the party switches between them, you're never sure if the right party is going to have the right-sized purse. It's also too bad that there are so few places to spend money during the last three chapters. Score: 5.
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Owyn finished the game with over 5,000 sovereigns. Even checking the purse is narrated.
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8. Quests. The game features a main quest with no player input and a nice number of side-quests and side-areas. Score: 4.
9. Graphics, Sound, and Interface. This is probably going to be controversial. I admire the graphical effort of the game. There were even times that I came upon a bridge or forest and found the scene almost pretty. The cutscene graphics for some of the towns and castles look nice. Overall, however, I thought the graphics are indicative of most of the early 1990s, when it was becoming possible to show more detail, but not yet possible for actual beauty and immersion. There were times (particularly with monster graphics) in which the developers attempted more detail than was really possible to depict, leaving a lot of confusing blobs. We've talked plenty about how the character portraits are just absurd.
There are other issues with the outdoor graphics that I didn't talk much about because I had trouble defining exactly what was wrong. There were lots of times that distances or proportions or something got screwed up, so I'd be right next to a building and not be able to see it, or there would be three chests in a cluster, but I'd only see two of them unless I left and came back from a different direction.
Sound is another matter. Not only do we get some nice sound effects, but we hear some of the only background noises of the era, with birds chirping outdoors and dripping stalactites in caves. I'll talk about music, which isn't part of the GIMLET, later.
Finally, the interface: I had no problems with the commands. The game balances the mouse and keyboard well and uses the best tool for the best job. I liked the automap and inventory screen. My only criticism comes from difficulty moving in the outdoor screens, where the corner of every mountain and river seemed to project well beyond its visible boundaries and cause the party to get hung up. Score: 5.
10. Gameplay. I still need a better name for this category. Remember, I'm looking for four things here: nonlinearity, replayability, an appropriate challenge, and good pacing. I find the nonlinearity good. It doesn't last for the whole game, but the chapters that don't feature it have good reasons. I find it only slightly replayable, owing to the things you might have skipped in the open world. The challenge was okay. The game as a whole tended towards the easy side, but some individual battles were tough. A greater part of the challenge were the quasi-survival elements such as hunger, the slow rate of healing, poison, and "near-death," all of which I liked, although in some ways the game made it a bit too easy with abundant resources.
As for pacing, I did like the variety of lengths and scopes for the chapters. No game divided into chapters should become overly predictable. At the same time, I think it was a bit too long for its content and a few of the chapters dragged a bit. Score: 6.
That gives us a final score of 50. That's in the early 90s for percentile, suggesting an A- rating. I think that works. I liked it about as much as Amberstar and Bloodstone and other games that got the same rating. I liked the story more but the mechanics less.
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One wonders how they came up with this calculation.
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Krondor was widely reviewed, so we'll just take a sample. We start first with Computer Gaming World, where I am immediately irked to see a review by Jay Kee, who I've never heard of. I wanted to see Scorpia's take on this one. I guess I've become a Scorpia fan, as often as I disagree with her. Even the title annoys me: "My, But You're a Feisty One!" Ho, ho. It's a play on "Feist." But it otherwise doesn't work, since there's nothing "feisty" about the game or any of its characters. (Yes, I know, my subtitles don't always hit a home run, either. I'm not a commercial magazine with paid professional editors and 300,000 readers.) Then we have the first paragraph:
On the surface, fantasy role-playing games seem to have come a long way since the early days of text-based gaming; the days when dungeon mazes were created by bored programmers on mainframe computers. Today, the graphics, sound effects, music, and animations produced on increasingly sophisticated computers make those early efforts look like cave drawings.
Has Jay Kee ever played any of those "mainframe" games he's deriding? Because I guarantee that their programmers weren't "bored," and their outputs were anything but rudimentary. It's the earliest commercial games that look like cave drawings, not the mainframe ones. Incidentally, did an editor look at this? Because the first thing an editor does is strike "on the surface" and "seem to," and then he turns that semicolon into a dash.
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Orthanc from 1975. Or, as Jay Kee sees it, "cave drawings."
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Anyway, his point is to draw a contrast with the roll-your-character mechanics that have dominated CRPGs since the beginning. "Anyone expecting anything like a standard CRPG is in for a lot of surprises." And then he talks about all the things that I talked about at the beginning of this entry, except that he's convinced that Krondor heralds a new era in CRPG design, whereas I see it as a welcome variation, but not something I want to see replicated in every major RPG from now on.
I don't disagree with him on everything. He loves the open world but not the graphics. He praises the audio, the interface, and the map. But he sees the simplicity of inventory and character development as positives, which I don't, since I'm looking for an RPG rather than an adventure game. And his statement on the character portraits ("some people will not like the look of the characters or their costumes") fails to describe the depth of their inanity. Computer Gaming World would later give the game "Role-Playing Game of the Year" and name it one of the 150 best games of all time in their November 1996 issue. In August 1994, the U.S. PC Gamer ranked it 31 out of the best 40 games of all time, a rather brash article given that it was only their third issue.
I don't know why I keep going back to Dragon, which never had a good approach to reviewing computer games, but here I am reading Sandy Peterson's brief "Eye of the Monitor" column. (He starts each review with a quote from classical literature, the pretentious git, although the quote he chose, Claude Adrien Helvétius's "What makes men happy is liking what they are forced to do," is apt for this blog.) He had never read Feist, and he had trouble booting the game, so it was never destined to be a good review. He gave it 2 out of 5 stars. This paragraph is worth analyzing:
The designers, in a hare-brained attempt to make the game more realistic, have made the game hardly fun at all. You must constantly be polishing your armor, keeping your swords sharp, inspecting any food you find to make sure it's not spoiled or poisoned, replacing your crossbow's bowstrings, and continually engaging in other such dull maintenance activities.
I don't agree with him, and yet it's hard to explain why I don't agree with him. It's hard to explain why I prefer "survival" mode in games that offer it. Simply saying that I "like the challenge" doesn't seem enough. I like a variety of challenges, from the meta-challenge of finishing the game to micro-challenges like keeping my characters alive with sufficient rations. I love it when those micro-challenges sometimes come to the forefront, derailing your plans and sending you on a half-hour quest for a drink of water or a warm fire. But I suppose that's a subject for a longer entry where it's more relevant.
MobyGames's round up of reviews shows them ranging from 56% in the June 1993 German Power Play to 97% in Electronic Games. The median is about 85%, which surprises me. Overall, the various characteristics I listed at the start of this entry are present in many of the reviews, with some reviewers (incorrectly) thinking they are unique to this game, some suggesting (incorrectly) that they are heralds for CRPGs to come, and many unable to get past relatively minor parts of the game like the janky movement, the survival mechanics, and not being able to create your characters.
Given the popularity of the game, there is plenty of material to reconstruct its history. Primary sources include
Neal Hallford's web site (thank you, Bronzon) and interviews with Hallford, director John Cutter, and Dynamix CEO and founder Jeff Tunnell, and Raymond Feist. The game's history was
also covered thoroughly (as usual) in 2019 by the Digital Antiquarian. The original idea for
Krondor was Tunnell's, who read and enjoyed the
Riftwar novels. Tunnell gave the project to Cutter, who had been hired by Dynamix but was a bit adrift for his next project. (Cutter had coincidentally come from Cinemaware, which acquired the rights to
Star Saga in 1990, but Cutter told me by email that he personally didn't have much to do with
Star Saga and that its approach did not influence
Krondor.) After securing the rights to the Midkemia setting from Feist, Cutter hired Neal Hallford, who he had met at New World, to do most of the writing. Feist had refused that role, saying, "You couldn't afford me."
Hallford had previously written the manual and in-game text for Tunnels & Trolls; Crusaders of Khazan (1990) and Planet's Edge (1991), both of which had issues but certainly gave Hallford the requisite experience. I have to agree that he really stepped up his game for Krondor. Jimmy Maher at the Digital Antiquarian says: "Hallford wrote [the game] with Feist's fans constantly in mind. He immersed himself in Feist's works to the point that he was almost able to become the novelist. The prose he created, vivid and effective within his domain, really is virtually indistinguishable from that of its inspiration," a fact no doubt responsible for persistent rumors that Feist himself wrote the game's text.
The original plan was to make a literal adaptation of Silverthorn (1985) which I agree is the most adaptable of the original novels, as it tells a relatively self-contained story in which a classing adventuring party goes through wilds and dungeons seeking a quest item. Maher's research credits Hallford for pushing for an original story instead, set during the 20-year gap in between A Darkness at Sethanon (1986) and Prince of the Blood (1989).
As we've previously discussed, the interface was adapted from a flight simulator (a genre for which Dynamix was almost exclusively known) called Aces of the Pacific (1992). It technically pre-dates, or is at least contemporaneous to, Ultima Underworld (1992) and Wolfenstein 3D (1992), although the lack of interactivity of the Krondor engine, the graphics problems, and the inability to look up and down, keeps me from taking any accolades away from those titles.
Krondor got good reviews but wasn't a smash hit financially. Maher suggests several reasons: it was over-budget and well beyond its deadline in the first place; non-Feist fans were a bit lost in the narrative; and Dynamix had the misfortune of releasing it at the beginning of a general slump in CRPG sales. Planned sequels were canceled, Cutter was fired, and Hallford quit. Nonetheless, Sierra (Dynamix's parent company since 1990) ultimately did well with CD-ROM re-releases and with interest gained by Feist's 1997 canonization of the game in novel form:
Krondor: The Betrayal. (Incidentally, one of the CD versions featured
this interview with Feist, where I first learned the world is pronounced "Mid-KEE-me-uh" and not "Mid-KAY-me-uh.") Although Sierra had lost the
Riftwar license by then, they capitalized on the novel's release by publishing
Betrayal at Antara, set in another world but using the
Krondor engine, the same year. None of
Krondor's principals worked on
Antara.
In the meantime, a Dallas-based developer called 7th Level, Inc., purchased the rights to adapt the Riftwar setting. 7th Level commissioned a sequel, Return to Krondor, from PyroTechnix, a Cincinnati-based studio that it had acquired in 1996. In the middle of the game's development, 7th Level sold PyroTechnix—to Sierra. The game came out in 1998 and was novelized by Feist as Krondor: Tears of the Gods (2000). The literal game novelizations make up 50% of the Riftwar Legacy quartet. The other two books—Krondor: The Assassins (1999) and Jimmy and the Crawler (2013)—conclude some of the plotlines started in Betrayal at Krondor.
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Feist's canon novelization of the game.
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I bought The Betrayal even though I knew I wouldn't have (and haven't had) time to read it in full. I was curious how you go about adapting a game into novel form when the game already has full paragraphs of prose and basically presents itself as a novel. The results are not what I expected. Feist adheres far more closely to the plot, order of events, and even dialogue than I would have expected. He re-writes most of the prose but not in a way that makes any significant changes to facts.
The Betrayal's prologue starts a bit before the game, with Locklear hanging around Tyr-Sog, hiding from the fallout of an unwise tryst in Krondor. By Page 5, his patrol encounters Gorath fleeing a group of Moredhel eager to capture him. Locklear's party drives off the pursuers. Gorath says he has a message for Prince Arutha and refuses to give it to anyone else. The soldiers from Tyr-Sog haul him away in chains.
Chapter 1 picks up from Owyn's perspective, as he sits around a campfire and broods about what he's going to do with his life. He hears a noise, and then Locklear and Gorath come staggering into camp, Gorath having been wounded by a recent encounter with assassins. Owyn offers to help dress the Moredhel's wounds, and by Page 13, we've joined the opening moments of the game. Feist curiously uses almost none of Hallford's prose but does use a lot of his dialogue from this point. For instance, when he sees the assassin in the game, Gorath yells, "Get out from underfoot, Owyn! Assassin in the camp!" In the book, the two sentences are reversed but otherwise the same. When he gets hold of the assassin, in the game, Gorath says, "Do not struggle so, Haseth. I wish to keep you alive. But be glad I do not. The goddess of death will show you greater mercy." In the book, he says, "Do not struggle so, Haseth. For old times' sake, I will make this quick . . . May the Goddess of Darkness show you mercy."
Side quests are mostly cut. For instance, the characters hear about the Brak-Nurr in Chapter 1 but do not venture into the dwarven mines to deal with it. (They never enter the mines at all, in fact. Owyn and Gorath's journey from Krondor to Elvandar happens off-screen.) There are no rusalki in the text, no hand of glory, no Guarda Revanche. There is a mention of one "lock chest," but otherwise those fairy chests play no role in the book, nor do the copious traps, nor any NPCs who provide training in the game.
I was otherwise surprised at how closely Feist followed the plot, even when the original didn't make a lot of sense. For instance, Feist still sends the characters through the sewers on their first visit to Krondor on the silly excuse that the castle gates have been sabotaged. Owyn and Gorath's escape from Sar-Sargoth is still a bit unbelievable, although Feist does a better job justifying it by not having them engage in all kinds of noise and slaughter on the way. Perhaps most important, the characters still cover a huge amount of territory in unrealistically short time frames.
Feist does cut, expand, and recontextualize a few notable things. In the leadup to Northwarden, he skips having James and Locklear run random errands. He cuts the scene in which Arutha presides over the torture of a Moredhel captive. He introduces Makala much earlier (he's with Arutha when Locklear and company originally arrive at Krondor). [Ed. Makala is mentioned in the cutscene between Chapters 1 and 2 of the game, too. I just didn't remember.] When Gorath meets Aglaranna, he puts his hand on his sword so he can draw it and present it to her as part of the Return ritual.
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This scene does not exist in the book.
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Perhaps most surprising are the ways that the game seemed to change Feist's approach to the magic system of Midkemia. In the pre-Betrayal books, magic is a nebulous thing with few hard rules and not really organized into discrete, named "spells." That changes in the novelization, as in this passage where Owyn, Gorath, and Pug consider a party of Panath-Tiandn:
Gorath said, "This will be difficult, especially those two on the end with staves like yours."
Owyn said, "A moredhel spellcaster named Nago tried to freeze me with a spell; I've made it work once."
Pug closed his eyes and said, "I . . . I know which one you mean. The magic fetters that inflict damage. I . . . think I can cast that."
Owyn said, "If we can immobilize those two, then cast a ball of fire at the rest, maybe that will cause enough panic we can get inside and find your daughter."
Feist avoids the specific spell names, but this scene otherwise feels exactly like a player planning combat tactics.
Those of you who have fully read the book, please feel free to comment with your analysis or any mistakes in my summary; again, I skimmed most of it.
This integration of a computer game with the canon of a larger franchise is groundbreaking. We've had novels based on games and games based on novels, but with Krondor we have a depth of mutual interaction that we haven't seen before, at least in the west. As such, the games paved the way for mixed-media franchises like Star Wars, The Witcher, and Fallout. Krondor isn't the highest-rated game of 1993, but for those reasons, it's a strong contender for "Game of the Year" and a worthy entry to my "Must Play" list.
OK, I'll ding you on "quests" here, since I think you underappreciate it in your playthrough: early chapters offer multiple ways of finishing them. You can get the seals for Romney in two different places; you can get to Assassin's Guild (or whatever it was) in multiple ways; you can have multiple ways of crossing the bridge back from Moredhel; and I think I missed some, but I think you missed more. Pretty much, apart from the very end, there is a lot more variability in quests than you seem to acknowledge; perhaps you just missed it. I personally would add another point for rather open-end-ed-ness of the quests, which require some thinking on the player's part.
ReplyDeleteI also would say that you spent a lot longer with the game than I expected.
Fully agree with you on this one the game is definitely a 51 game not a 50, I of course would have disagreed with something as ridiculous as a 52 or 49 rating which would have been to extreme for the game.
DeleteNah, I'll die on that hill (can't connect from work).
DeleteGenerally, I believe the consensus about what makes RPG good is:
1. There is a main quest which has a more or less explained internal logic
2. There are side quests
3. Quests vary in their goals beyond the standard trifecta of "kill X", "find Y", and "go to B after meeting A"
4. There are alternate solutions for the quests, perhaps reflecting different role-playing choices (whom to support in a conflict)
5. Alternate solutions implement role-playing "alternative path checks" (kill vs. steal vs. bullshit)
6. Alternate outcomes of quests have long term consequences (i.e. choices of quest A have long term effect on quest B)
7. There are major alternative outcomes (not solutions) on the main quest
If I compare BaK to Enchantasy (which also had 4), I'll notice that BaK has outright more open-ended quests; and has alternate solutions (but not outcomes) in every early chapter, which are well written enough to have whole chain of quests, not just one event. In terms of quest-writing, it is well ahead of the most; what it lacks are alternative long-term outcomes (but these are impossible given plot restrictions imposed by external series) and serious role-playing choices (against, meaningless given the fixed structure of the party).
I would also argue that lack of grinding on random encounters is a feature, not a bug, and I don't understand how it can be a negative; is 72 hours not enough? What's more, it's factually incorrect, since there are several spots in game where you *can* grind, most notably - the guards around the house where the head of the temple with assassins live; but there are a few other options as well.
Grinding is one of the cases where the GIMLET being based on Chet's preferences really shows. I think you could say that he's soft pro-grinding. He's objected to extensive, tedious, required grinding before (Dragon Warrior) but this is of a piece with his objection to easily reachable level caps and to milestone-based character progression.
Delete@stepped pyramids, Chet clearly plays all these games in a funny way; I parallel played two of them, and I swear I have no idea why Chet had the outcomes he ended up having, in case of BaK - why he found the battles to be so hard at times.
DeleteRegarding grinding and random battles - it's not annoying that it is marked down, but it is annoying when the game has something, and then the review proceeds to state it doesn't.
RandomGamer
The grinding examples you cite are exploits, not part of the intended gameplay. Most players wouldn't know they were possible.
Delete"Grinding" is the wrong way to convey things. I like random encounters. The possibility of grinding, should grinding be necessary, is only one of the reasons that I like random encounters.
Anyway, I concede that your points on side quests might make it worthy of 1 extra point, but the fact that you can get a quest item in two different locations isn't really what I mean by "choices," particularly since the player doesn't really know that he's making a choice. He's just naturally led to one or the other. Unless I missed something during both gameplay and looking at spoiler sites later, BaK doesn't offer a single side quest in which the player can make a choice about the outcome. That's what most of the reserved points are for.
I know that the cases where I "like" grinding, it's less "Now you must grind for X time to have any chance at making it further" a la Dragon Warrior and more "You may proceed at this point, but if you put in some grind work you will unlock some extra content in the form of optional spells/abilities/weapons" or when it's "You have a choice here of fighting harder battles to progress, or doing some busy work now that will make those progress battles easier".
DeleteInteresting that you like random encounters so much to feel they're worth a full point on the GIMLET. In U5, the top GIMLET scored game, encounters are random in the overworld and dungeon corridors, but fixed in dungeon rooms. In BAK, encounters are fixed but they are tied to chapter - certain combats only appear in certain chapters (this applies for chapters 1-3, and 5-7, the other chapters are effectively one-shot adventures). Not sure why if an encounter "spawns" or "despawns" because of a deterministic change in chapter, it's worth less as a GIMLET than an encounter "spawning" because of a die roll.
Delete> Anyway, I concede that your points on side quests might make it worthy of 1 extra point, but the fact that you can get a quest item in two different locations isn't really what I mean by "choices," particularly since the player doesn't really know that he's making a choice.
DeleteWell, firstly, it's not just separate locations for quest items: it is completely different chain of events (I think broken by oversight in case of guild seals, as there were hints leading up to that branch). This is particularly noticeably in the event of evil idol.
Secondly, I didn't give out that evil idol precisely for role-playing reasons: why would I want to give a deadly artifact to a person I just met in a sewers? So that she could potentially wipe the royal court? No, not me.
Thirdly, while I agree that the game doesn't have alternative outcomes in the quest, it at least does meaningfully acknowledge the choice of doing the quests: shops open, tolls are lifted, and towns repopulate.
Finally, I think that the fact that the quest gives you some choice doesn't necessarily make it meaningful. Look at Darklands with its options of fight/flee/buy out/throw a potion/pray to saint: yes, it is a choice, and it is nice to have it, but is it necessarily meaningful?
I think it's interesting to compare this to Curse of the Azure Bonds. BaK is a full fledged, canonical sequel, whereas Curse is a bit of a side-story (but also a sequel to the Pool of Radiance game). That gives BaK much more depth, but also makes it hard for people that aren't familiar with the Books, whereas Curse is able to function much more on its own, but IMHO doesn't reach the potential that the setting and original book would allow (then again, it was a 1989 game that still targeted 8-Bit machines as well). I never really got along with BaK because I just couldn't get into the plot. The music is absolutely amazing though.
ReplyDeleteIt feels that BaK _could_ have been the start of a new Gold Box-ish era of games, where we have a tight adaption with a literary source and many stories set in the same universe, but (despite Antara and Return) never got there.
To do something similar to Gold Box you need technology stable enough to allow you to reuse the same engine for over half a decade, and it just wasn't the case in the 90es.
DeleteI think the infinity games prove You wrong in that
DeleteInfinity Engine happened when Microsoft finally got their shit together and rolled out a reasonably fast and reliable DirectX.
DeleteMid-90es were a cluster**** with regards to graphics because things were changing so fast, yet at the same time the x86 as a platform was moving from direct hardware standard access for graphics to a more abstract architecture.
Doom Engine comes to mind. I dont mean to be a contrarian but I think your claim Doesnt hold water.
DeleteThe Doom engine’s commercial viability IMO lasted from December 1993 (release of the original game) though October 1995 (release of Hexen) - there were various expansion packs and the oddity that was Strife that came out in the six months after that, but even as of Hexen people were bemoaning that the engine was feeling long in the tooth. At any rate Quake came out in June of 1996 so the best case scenario for how long the Doom engine - a cutting-edge marvel when it launched - remained a going concern was 2.5 years, so this doesn’t feel like much of a rebuttal.
Delete"I swear there was some other game that narrates everything you do as paragraphs, but I can't put my finger on it."
ReplyDeleteJourney, maybe? Although it's really 99% an adventure game I think you played it.
As for the ridiculous character portraits, maybe they just reflect the fashion in Midemia at the time. Didn't fashion conscious men use to wear wigs in parts of the world a few hundred years ago, for example?
I was thinking of Quest for Glory, especially the later titles. It doesn't narrate absolutely everything the way Krondor does, but plenty of things nevertheless.
DeleteIn the way the game narrates player actions instead of giving you real role playing choices it reminded me of Tunnels & Trolls: Crusaders of Khazan.
Delete> maybe they just reflect the fashion in Midemia at the time.
DeleteI like this idea! Social mores are just so different there that what looks ridiculous to us is quotidian to the characters in their world. Or maybe Pug gets his kicks by looking silly. There's no reason they should all look like well-coiffed movie stars.
Journey did it, too, but no, I was thinking of a game where each action appeared in narrative form line-by-line in the exploration window.
DeleteBard's Tale, perhaps?
DeleteNeither the old Bard's Tale I-III nor the (relatively) new Bard's Tale IV really do that. Maybe the 2004 action game does. I haven't played it.
DeleteFaery Tale Adventure is closer. It narrates events in the third person ("'They're all dead!' he cried." and "Julian returned to the village of Tambry.", for example) but much, much more sparsely than BaK does.
That the typical party size is six, is probably because of tabletop D&D. While individual groups of course vary wildly, the default for conventions and organized play has, for a long time, been six (not counting the DM).
ReplyDeleteThat's technically true, but good luck bringing six (plus one) adults around a table even once per month, speaking from experience.
DeleteAn advantage of a 6-person group is that if one or two can't make it, you can still play.
DeleteIf the group wants everybody present for every session, then yes, six is too many.
I think it depends on where you are coming from. For me, 4 is the normal party standard, as I am closest to the blobber lineage going from Dungeon Master to Eye of the Beholder up to Grimrock. Early MMs were 6 as they were coming from the Wizardry/Bard's Tale model, but MM VI+ were 4 party members. So for me. recent games like Solasta or BG3 are very natural at 4.
DeletePersonally I think 4 is better from a design point of view as it forces choices, you cannot have all talents covered, and it encourages replayability with different combinations. At 6 you can pretty easily have a tank fighter, an offensive wizard, a healing/defensive spell caster, a ranged combat one, a thief/rogue, and even a second one of those or some bard-type utility class. I prefer when you can't have it all, or rely or hybrid classes that do some of both but not perfectly, it makes nice gameplay compromises.
Georges,
DeleteI feel basically the complete opposite of you! If a game only gives four slots for characters, I feel obligated to fill them with the archetypal fighter/wizard/cleric/thief so I know I have all of my bases covered. Having one or two extra slots allows me to experiment with party makeup or character builds without accidentally hobbling myself.
I have the same feeling as Georges - there was a progression to a smaller party, very noticeable in Might and Magic. But it wasn't universal by any means - Wizardry 8 had up to eight, I think.
DeleteI remember bouncing off Crystal Dragon on Amiga in part because there were only two party members, which I felt wasn't enough, partly due to unfamiliarity. And also the early monster variety didn't seem enough. I think I was probably unfair to the game, which was well-received overall.
Three has been used in a number of good roguelite deckbuilders.
I liked the approach Eye of the Beholder took with having the starting party that you create consist of 4 characters, but with 2 additional slots available for NPCs.
DeleteAgreed. It's always fun to find interesting NPCs and add them to the characters you created.
DeleteI’ve loved this series Chet, and want to thank you so much for covering it in such style and depth!
ReplyDeleteI’ve been a long-time Feist-ian, and read all the Riftwar (and beyond) books. However, I always thought the plot of the game – which good for a game at the time – couldn’t hold a flame compared to Feist’s books that preceded Betrayal.
The premise itself plays way too much as a rehash of Silverthorn and A Darkness at Sethanon, with a bit of a Tsurani twist. But otherwise, it just feels like a very similar premise – and so I never was super satisfied with the plot. I thought it was a misstep for Feist to novelise the game.
I did love the gameplay (at the time) – particularly Chapter Three. Like you have noted in your series (and many othert commenters), the chapters do get progressively weaker as we near the end.
Still – I’ve loved the recap! It’s made me feel very nostalgic.
Sadly this was pretty much the last CRPG I played as a kid until the emergence of games like Skyrim. I took many years off them after I played Krondor (with the perhaps exception of Ultima 8).
Anyway, glad Betrayal made the must play list, I still think it’s a pretty good game overall.
Thanks for your comments, Daz. I'm glad you were satisfied by my coverage.
DeleteAnd with that, we come to a close on one of my favorite games of all time. Thanks for this journey, Chet (and especially thanks for the shout-out to my music comment!). I had a good time following your playthrough. I've said before that BaK has always held a special place in my heart and I'm always happy to see it pop up in various places even these many decades later, even contributing to that sometimes (I hold the dubious distinction, for example, of creating the BaK TVTropes page, though it was under a different username at the time). When I found your blog a few years back I read through a lot of older entries, but never felt like I had much to say until you got to this game, which I had been waiting for, and I'm glad you enjoyed it!
ReplyDeleteA couple of minor things: Makala actually does show up in the game at the end of Chapter 1/beginning of Chapter 2, but it's a real "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" moment, especially since you don't know he's important at all until Chapter 6. Also I think you meant "Locklear and Gorath come staggering into camp" instead of "Arutha and Gorath".
And finally, you should fully read the book at some point when you get more time. I do like the things that Feist focuses on more that the game skimps on, such as the battle for Northwarden, or the confrontation with Navon du Sandau, which involves a chess game devolving into a swordfight. I also wonder if Neal Hallford himself knows about this blog, as he's still pretty active online and seems to enjoy it and chime in when people talk about BaK.
Welp, I'll go back into lurker mode now. Thanks for a good series!
I re-watched the cut scene between Chapters 1 and 2, and Makala has a greater role than I had remembered, definitely more than "blink and you miss it," so you were being a bit charitable there.
DeleteThanks for comments throughout my entries.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCongratulation on finishing this one [I didn't]. I am relieved you don't plan to 100% all the upcoming open worlds. I expected the game to land at around 60, but of course and for obvious reasons you justified the ratings with special attention.
ReplyDeleteSome context on the world of Midkemia, from my own article on Midkemia Press' first computer game: Star Explorer.
"In 1975, Stephen Abrams, Joe Everson and Conan Lamot were three students at University of California – San Diego (UCSD) and regulars of the Triton Wargaming Club. One day, Lamot introduced the two others to a new game he had purchased in Los Angeles: Dungeons & Dragons (D&D). This was back when D&D was an expansion on the miniatures wargame Chainmail, which Lamot did not have, but he had copied all the relevant rules and information in a guide he called “The Tome of Mid-Kimia” – Lamot just liked how that sounded. D&D immediately conquered not only the three friends, but the whole Triton Wargaming Club.
Alas, the Triton Wargaming Club favoured the kind of power gaming that forces game masters to rely on the Deities and Demigods book as their monster manual. Instead of joining munchkinesque adventurer parties, the trio went their own way, with Everson and Abrams soon (1976) designing a ruleset and then a world which, while still “fantasy”, was also more grounded in medieval realism: Midkemia. The new RPG proved popular after all, and the Everson/Abrams duo reckoned that having done the legwork, they could just run the extra mile and start a role-playing game company: the creatively-named Abrams & Everson, est. 1979.
The first product of Abrams & Everson was the popular Cities, a rule-agnostic gamebook for running urban campaigns. It received four editions and unanimous praise, including from far-away UK (White Dwarf, Games International) and France (Casus Belli). Shortly after City, Abrams & Everson became Midkemia Press (1980) and enlarged the team, adding in particular to the roster Raymond Feist, a veteran of the 1976 campaigns who would, only a couple of years down the line, use the world of Midkemia as a background for his famous Riftwar Cycle. Under its new name, Midkemia Press published 8 more titles, until 1983… and then it hibernated. It would occasionally awaken, not least of course with the computer game Betrayal at Krondor in 1993".
Finishing BaK feels like a milestone for this blog. This is the last major game in what I think was the DOS CRPG golden age. From here on it's mostly weird shareware, forgettable stuff like SSI's Menzoberranzan and memorable disasters like Ultima VIII until you hit Fallout and Baldur's Gate at the other side of the CD-ROM era slump.
ReplyDeleteBut now we can look forward to good indie games instead of the usual Ultima clones. Nahlakh, Natuk, Aethra Chronicles, Aleshar: World of Ice. Hell, even Jeff "I remake remakes" Vogel's games should be more interesting than most AAA CRPGs in this era.
DeleteI liked Ultima VIII, but you need to have the "jumping" patch and you need to forget it is an Ultima.
DeleteOn the 1994 list, I see Al Qadim (which I'd call decent but unmemorable); ADOM (one of THE major roguelikes, and one of the bigger ones in terms of time investment); and the start of three major franchises in The Elder Scrolls Arena; System Shock; and UFO: Enemy Unknown. And there's Ultima 8, of course.
DeleteJeff Vogel started in 1995 so that'll have to wait.
Never played Al Qadim but heard good things about the settings, so I am curious to see what it looks like.
DeleteSystem Shock 1 is just a FPS (no character progression, no equipment beyond the typical FPS acquisition of weapons). As good as it is, UFO:EU is also NOT a RPG, and I think the Addict will not like it it.
UFO:EU has enough RPG features to meet Mr. Addict's criteria, I believe.
DeleteAt a minimum, there are TES: Arena and RoA: Star Trail coming up in 1994. Daggerfall is 1996, but it's still a DOS game, which arguably makes it the last major title on "this" side.
DeleteI'm with the OP. U8 and Arena aren't really good games in my opinion. Heck I still 100% believe that U8 was an insult to any real Ultima fan back then.
DeleteBefore you call out Jehova, of course I recognize Arena's big achievement, still I don't really think it's a good game. I think they didn't get it right until Morrowind.
DeleteThe difference is Ultima 8 was almost universally panned at the time of its release, while both Arena and Daggerfall were huge hits. It's not suprising that modern gamers would view them less favorably, given the overall trend in RPGs (and video games in general) in the past 30 years towards more narrative and less interactivity. But lots of people at the time of Morrowind's release had the opposite opinion - that it was a huge step down from Daggerfall.
Delete'Al-Qadim' has an exotic setting, but otherwise plays like 'Mystic Quest' on the Game Boy.
Delete@PO: UFO-EU has the "bullet point" criteria (character development that is chosen, equipment development) but everyone knows it is not a cRPG, and indeed, to quote the Addict's definition: "character development is NOT [in UFO] the driving mechanic of gameplay".
DeleteI feel something that a key-difference between not-RPG and Tactical RPG is that in the former your soldiers/characters replaceable and their occasional death in combat [NOT in event] is expected, whereas in a CRPG a death is either game over, reload, or drag their body to the temple.
In any case, given UFO is sci-fi and given the Addict's feedback on ranged tactical combats (eg in Galactic Adventures - granted this was a long time ago), I believe he won't love it.
UFO: Enemy Unknown was 1993 game. I'm not much into DOS gaming, but there are UFO sequels (TFTD and Apocalypse), Jagged Alliance 1 (THAT was from 1994), System Shock 1, Realms of Arcania sequels, Arena and Daggerfall.
DeleteAnd it's unclear what you think of DOS/Windows games released for both platforms: Fallout, Lands of Lore 2 etc.
In many party-based RPGs all characters are technically fully replaceable though - early Wizardries come to mind, or Ishar. I'm not 100% certain, but I think that applies to Bard's Tale and early M&Ms as well.
DeleteI think, if games like Warlords or King's Bounty were covered on this blog, UFO deserves a brief at least.
I'd say the key reason everyone "knows" UFO-EU isn't an RPG is because it's just combat or combat preparation. To get a true RPG vibe that stuff needs to alternate with periods of narrative, exploration, or puzzle solving, etc.
DeleteI don't think any amount of tinkering with character development or consequences of character death would make UFO-EU feel like an RPG without introducing those non-combat elements. An RPG is an adventure through a world sprinkled with combats, not conveyer belt of combats.
Bard's Tale and M&M fall in the "drag their bodies to the temple" category - even in case of a party wipe. Wizardry is granted an exception with how it manages party wipes and the dead/ashes/lost status. As far as I know, it is pretty unique in that case.
DeleteStill, "character development is the driving mechanic of gameplay" in Wizardry [if the whole team is lost, it is effectively a game over], not in UFO [your base/tech progress is still there, and you can start a new team with the best equipment your engineers can buid]
It would be like if you showed up for your tabletop game and the DM said everyone seemed to just like the combat so let's get rid of the gameworld, story, and NPCs. Let's get rid of the dugeon map as well. Instead I have planned a series of five combats for us to play through with a break to level up and re-equip in between.
DeleteThat might be fun for the group, but it's not really RPG night anymore.
Yeah, much as I love X-COM/UFO and its derivatives, IMO they’re more a distinct strategy subgenre with RPG elements rather than RPGs as such. The difference maybe has more to do with the glue between fights than the combat scenarios themselves, though - base and financial management are much more strategy-game fare than anything you’d find in an RPG. But I’m not sure whether that applies to everything and I’m not sure how edifying it would be to have Chet have to investigate the overall campaign structures of things like Incubation or Soldiers at War to judge their qualifications, when a cursory look would show half the Gimlet categories wouldn’t apply. Playing X-COM as an exemplar of the type then dropping the subgenre, perhaps with occasional excursions into standout titles along the lines of the approach to console RPGs, makes the most sense to me.
Delete(If ever we get to the era of open-world action games with RPG elements, the criteria might also need to be revisited on their account).
Oh, and as I remember 2002 “this sure is a step down from Daggerfall” was at best an *incredibly niche* response to Morrowind; many folks noted the loss of vampirism and the eventually-added lycanthropy, sure, but the overall improved quality, and the logic of dropping many of Daggerfall’s cool-sounding but wonky features, was pretty obvious at the time. That kind of discourse was very strong around *Oblivion*, though.
Incubation is closer to a regular RPG, since individual characters are (partially) named and always fixed.
DeleteBut, generally, I'm curious as to where he will draw the lines with hybrids, which start pop up all over the place around this time.
I think that '94-95 would end up being very interesting on this blog, because in this period CRPG's tried a lot of things, but couldn't quite get the sales; but, in this era, FPS and RTS became such a major force on PC's that I wonder if it was because the games were bad, or because the gamers were distracted.
DeleteI guess the very definition of RPG is hazy at best. XCOM and JA are not RPG of the same kind as Fallout or Baldur's Gate, but they have some mechanics that are present in so-called "true" RPG - expecially Jagged Alliance. You can name your soldiers, "upgrade" them (with psionics in XCOM), or they gain levels in system similar to TES series (Jagged Alliance). You can speak to another people in open-world in JA. Modern XCOM games made huge impact on modern RPGs with their "tactical combat". Therefore possible decision to skip those would be a bit… weird.
DeleteSure, as I said, playing some of the highlights of the subgenre could be interesting. I’m just questioning the wisdom of slogging through dozens of non-RPGs which have no quests or choices to speak of, no character creation, and “economies” that are often tied to sophisticated strategy-game systems that the Gimlet is ill-equipped to evaluate. Like, arguably Panzer General satisfies Chet’s criteria for what makes something an RPG, and it might be interesting to get his perspective on it - but would it be a good use of his time to do completionist playthroughs of Panzer General 2, Allied General, Fantasy General, Star General, Pacific General, People’s General, Panzer General 3D Assault, and Warhammer 40k: Rites of War in the same way he did all the Gold Box games?
Delete@Anonymous, I'm with Tetrapod on this one. And, as far as combat goes, "Modern XCOM" borrowed more from Asian tactical RPG's than it did from the original XCom.
DeleteI agree with various commenters that UFO:EU is not a pure CRPG, but we are moving into an era where IMO the best AAA CRPGs are not the pure ones, but hybrids like the X-COM (UFO) games, Jagged Alliance and Heroes of Might and Magic. But of course my opinion is coloured by the fact that my last reason for playing a CRPG is "for the story".
DeleteI do think our host's definition may need a bit of tweaking as more games start to borrow RPG mechanics. It'd be like if I defined adventures for All the Adventures by just using the Steam tag "adventure" which includes Palworld, Space Marine II, and Forza Horizon 5.
DeleteJagged Alliance I could see plausibly making an RPG argument. I think any definition that shoe-horns in X-COM is fundamentally broken (despite the fact it is one of my favorite games from the 1990s).
X-COM is definitely not a CRPG. A game can be CRPG-like in certain ways without actually being a CRPG. Saying that X-COM is a CRPG just because soldiers gain experience over time is like saying that every fantasy-themed game must be a CRPG just because most CRPGs are fantasy-themed. X-COM is very clearly a strategy game. It's got a very different focus and a very different gameplay loop than a CRPG would.
DeleteNo, it's not very very clearly a strategy game. Strategy is just one part of it. It also has character development, items, tactical combat. It's a hybrid.
DeleteGoing back to the upcoming years, I think those will be a lot more interesting than the stuff like this. I think with the bigger games, there's a tendancy for people to put pressure on Chet to feel certain ways about it and for him to have the "best" experience that we don't really get with the more obscure titles. Plus, the years after this were arguably the strongest in some genres. By the same token, some of the upcoming C64 and Amiga titles have the claim to best RPGs on those systems.
DeleteAnyway, going back to the continuing argument, which feels very Codexian in how...rigid...some people feel about it. It feels like people take all or nothing ideas towards it rather than asking how many elements would be in place or out of place in one genre. Is it possible to take out elements that feel essential to a genre and still have it be a part of that genre? The accepted genre doesn't necessarily contain many elements of the game either, it's quite unique to begin with.
...but enough about Disco Elysium and back to X-COM. The argument tends to come because X-COM does a lot of different things in a way that neither genre really does unless they're consciously imitating X-COM. X-COM also tends to be quite different depending on whether or not you're good or not and whether or not you're playing a port that fixes the 80 item limit. I suspect for some their skill or not influences their opinion. That said, while I haven't played it in a while, I did play XPiratez somewhat recently, which felt like it ramped up the RPG aspects, since there was more actual choices in how to approach a fight, and some soldiers dying was something that would set you back as much as a character in Wizardry permanently dying.
That said, applying a blanket observation either way seems quite premature. Jagged Alliance is firmly on the RPG side of things, since there's no argument you could make against it that wouldn't similarly exclude legitimate RPGs, whereas Laser Squad is clearly on the strategy side, since it has no elements you could consider RPG.
My first impulse is "of course X-COM is not an RPG". But then, what do you make of Wildermyth? It has the same random generated tactical mission maps, and a large world-level strategy/story layer, and somewhat interchangeable crew members. The story part might be more developed, but X-COM do have a story as well that unfolds as you do research and progress through missions. Maybe it's the balance, as some commenters said above, what is the "primary" focus. But then you enter an eminently subjective territory.
DeleteRegarding good games still being there at the same time/after BaK, one cannot forget Uncharted Waters 2: New Horizons. This one is pure gem IMHO, having transitioned from "Pirates!-like" naval trade/piratry/adventure title into a full-fledged PC JRPG, with 6 different stories of 6 different people conjuncting into intertwined narrative, this game holds a big spot in my heart at least (and the music there - oh, it's fantastic, too...). Regarding X-COM - I, for one, struggle to fit X-COM into pure CRPG category, but have no trouble fitting "Jagged Alliance" there, maybe because characters are NOT replaceable, like, at all, in JA - you can hire a new X-COM operative with an unimportant name that you will pragmatically change into something like "Acy 60 TU 55 St 31", but you can NOT hire an OTHER Ivan, Fidel, or Lynx, and then there are no "temples" either...!
DeleteNew Horizons may be the last time I experienced "this is like the things I have liked and yet is also a new and different thing and I love it".
Delete@MorpheusKitami A valid point. While personally for me and others that lived through the time until Fallout/M&M 6 remember the years as dark in regard to CRPGs (it didn't help that series like Wizardry and M&M made a rather big pause either while Ultima went down the drain), this might be the period were the more unnoticed or indie games make the more interesting contributions to this blog.
DeleteI am not going to beat the UFO horse further. I believe that there is a wide consensus to calm JA2 a hybrid - its soldiers have more personality than 80% of « pure » RPG characters and it also has a character representing you that you can « build ».
DeleteJA1 is a bit more on the crestline, by my definition it is a hybrid RPG as characters are not replaceable - plus they have more personality than 70% of pure RPGs :).
Wildermyth is certainly much more CRPG-ish than X-COM, I'll give it that. X-COM's soldiers are mute, disposable stat blocks. Wildermyth's characters are actual characters. They've got personalities. They talk to each other. They make actual role-playing type decisions about things like whether or not to trust one another and whether or not turning into a freakish man-crow hybrid is a good idea. In X-COM you are an invisible strategy game leader person. In Wildermyth you play as the party. I don't know if I'd call Wildermyth a CRPG but I can at least understand why someone might, whereas the impulse to call X-COM a CRPG is alien and baffling to me.
DeletePS: Sorry I reread my last sentence and it wasn't clear, what I meant is:
Delete"A role-playing game is one in which the development of the character you are role-playing is the driving mechanic of gameplay."
Officially in Dungeon Master you are a guiding spirit of sorts (named Theron, I think), rather than one or more of the characters! Of course in reality it's played no different from other games; it's a little bit of fourth-wall breakage in the story in the manual.
DeleteAnyway, with regard to genre, I think CRPGs are an extensive enough rabbit hole that Chet probably doesn't need to stray into CRPG-adjacent games - except maybe occasionally as a palate-cleanser, with no intention to exhaust them! It's true that cross-genre games started to get more important with time. Every big game added mechanisms from others, and CRPG-style character development for example was one that appeared in everything from Populous II to No-one Lives Forever. You can't decide based purely on whether certain elements are present, IMO - they have to be somewhat central to the game rather than add-ons as we move into the modern era.
Dungeon Master's approach would seem to align with the conceit in many of the very oldest Text Adventure games to characterize the protagonist of the game as some kind of puppet or automaton being commanded remotely by the player.
DeleteGeorges makes a good point.
DeleteIn many CRPGs I feel that I'm more like a football manager than any of the characters. A Gold Box or old Wizardry or M&M character is just as a set of stats to me; the only difference from X-Com or UFO:EU is that they are far less replaceable.
Actually, "role-playing" can have two very distinct meanings: 1)a game where you are a thespian of sorts, playing a role 2)a game where every character has some "mechanistic" role. In this, second, sense football (or any -ball game for that matter) is a role-playing game, because every participant plays a role. As for tabletop games - at least for old style/OSR games, which are much more gamist tnen narrativist, there is a whole lot of this "playing a role" (tank, damager, healer, support, cute face for talking with contractors...). But the thing is - in a tabletop roleplaying game each role is played by someone, and in "computer roleplaying game" in which you have a whole party - well, you're really delegated to a role of manager, yes. I first understood this when there was a "football-like" game inserted into Final Fantasy 10, lol, because I'm not all that into sports. But this made the point clear. Much later, also, I learned that battle system of the very first Final Fantasy (for Famicom/Nes) was actually based a lot on sports, like when in rugby two teams stand opposed each other and their manager tells his team what to do and then they clash...!!!
DeleteVery few CRPGs fit the first of those two meanings. The first game I felt I could actually role play a single character in a more or less meaningful way was Fallout.
DeleteIt's mostly roll playing. But I'm not complaining. For true role playing (and choices&consequences) you need to play table top RPG with a good GM.
Well, yes, as they transferred to computers, RPGs mutated from the initial meaning to something like "experience-gaining/level-upping/skill-raising" games, so much so that experience-gaining/skill-raising in other genres have a moniker "RPG elements". What I meant was, rather, that first meaning is often associated with RPGs, but second meaning is there also, what with different roles of "attacker, defender, half-defender (?), goalkeeper" in football, or "tank, healer, dps" in RPGs, I guess...? What with the first sense - it may sound strange, but interactive movies (especially branching ones), Telltale-like games, and some kinds of interactive novels get actually closer to that than many CRPGs, at least in the "stepping in the shoes of the character" department if not in any other...?
DeleteFrom interesting RPGs coming there is also ADOM.
Delete"Considering the widespread popularity of Diablo (1997), I think it's much more likely that the inventory system of Might & Magic VI was inspired by the one from the former rather than the one presented in the lesser-known Betrayal at Krondor. In fact, after 1997, many role-playing games and other genres began to use a grid-based puzzle-like item management system. I don't think it's a coincidence."
ReplyDeleteI hope there comes an RPG with an inventory system inspired by Tetris, if you fill up a row it disappears. It would lead to new dimensions in equipment management.
DeleteMaybe that's the only way you can sell junk.
DeleteWell, for one, X-Com had a grid based inventory system with weight to boot. It wasn't unique to RPG's.
Delete@Anonymous: that sounds a lot like the inventory system in Ultima VII to me - fill you bag too full and you'll never find the single key you need.
DeleteYeah, all right. I had forgotten what Diablo's screen looked like. Maybe I'll have a chance to explore that later with the authors.
DeleteSlight correction on the novelization, it came out in late 1998 to be timed with Return to Krondor. It was actually the packaging of the game with the book which spurred me to get it and subsequently read some of Feist's other novels. Oddly enough, the one that stuck with me the most was Faerie Tale, his only non-Midkemia novel.
ReplyDeleteI remember thinking that Faerie Tale was pretty good, though I read it when I was in high-school and my judgement was a little suspect. I'd definitely rather re-read it than any of the Midkemia books at this point though.
DeleteOne thing about Faerie Tale that I really only properly appreciate in retrospect is that it tells a complete story in a single novel. That's far, far too rare in the fantasy genre. For another one-and-done fairy themed fantasy novel, I recommend Tad William's War of the Flowers. It's not actually all that much like Faerie Tale, but it's a nice distillation of William's tendencies into a single, complete book.
Funny you should mention Tad Williams. The opening of "Dragonbone Chair" is virtually identical to that of Feist's "Magician".
DeleteI've always thought high fantasy novels were a bit limited in how far they could vary compared to sci fi. That being said... I haven't read that much fantasy in years. I loved Dragonbone Chair and loved the Riftwar Trilogy. Not sure I could handle William's sequel to chair and after reading half of Feist's works I moved on.
DeleteA fair and enjoyable review of a flawed but clearly ambitious and fascinating game.
ReplyDeleteRegarding "Gameplay" - the way you summarize the topics here makes complete sense. Old video game magazines would probably treat this as "Fun Factor" or the like, which I think does indicate that no matter what, this is an effort to quantify something ineffable and unquantifiable, so it's unlikely any one word will completely wrap up the bundle. But I wonder if something like "Game Design" (in the sense that a board game designer might use it) gets at the kind of macro-scale pacing and replayability questions you're probing. Or maybe it's something a little more lyrical, like "The Journey"?
> Did I miss a winged reptilian creature at
ReplyDelete> some point in the game?
The BaK fandom-wiki page begins, "Wyverns are reptilian flying creatures..."
According to Neal Hallford, one of the artists for the game was a real diva and would not take input without throwing tantrums and being difficult to work with. When he drew the cover art, he gave Gorath a beard and refused to change it, no matter how many times Neal told him that moredhel don't canonically *have* beards, and I guess it was easier to then throw a beard onto the "actor" playing Gorath in-game than get him to change his mind. Presumably he also drew those flying gargoyle things on the cover despite them not being in the game at all, and adding them would've been more work than "put a beard on a guy" so they're just...on the cover for no good reason.
DeleteI've been working with a couple of guys like him, it's exhausting.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGiven how hard and expensive it was for them to remove henry cavill's mustache during the most recent superman movie, i guess adding a beard onto the actor made the most sense.
Delete> When he drew the cover art, he gave Gorath a beard and refused to change it
DeleteThat's *Gorath*?
Wow. I would have never guessed.
To me that figure on the cover looks like your cliché Santa Claus has suited up for battle with an armour and sword and not much like the in-game representation of Gorath.
DeleteThat screenshot is from Might and Magic VII not VI, i think VI screenshot would be more appropriate here since it has real people portraits like BaK, which imo is far better than Might and Magic VII and VIII pre-rendered portraits. I like the realistic backgrounds when you enter buildings as well.
ReplyDelete224 million square feet probably sounded bigger than 8 square miles.
ReplyDeleteWhich would explain the "cover a huge amount of territory in unrealistically short time frames". On the other hand, I don't think you can cram more than about four villages in a 8-square-mile region...
DeleteProbably have to wait for Minecraft for a game with 224 million square feet. At least it seems plausible that they've had 112 million characters online at once.
DeleteGame space tends to be small. World of Warcraft (at release) was said to have something like 80 square miles. But everything was unfeasibly close together - settlements of enemies that utterly hated each other could be a few hundred yards apart.
DeleteThis is why world maps with each square being a few miles across, like in the first five Ultimas, need to make a comeback.
DeleteBut then you have to have multiple play modes, because the player will not stand for overland walks that take hours in real time. The ideal in a lot of games is for a continuous experience, where the player seamlessly fights a monster in the wilderness, walks into town and into a shop etc. [Of course, nobody has figured out how to do this with the inventory screen , but otherwise they mostly try.]
Delete> He introduces Makala much earlier (he's with Arutha when Locklear and company originally arrive at Krondor).
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, I believe Makala was in the cutscene, but was not introduced in the text. I'll need to double check.
You can see the scene here:
Deletehttps://youtu.be/67iUgYQnTfE?feature=shared&t=209
You are correct that Makala is there, and he is mentioned in the text. I'll make an edit.
That screenshot is from Might and Magic VII (1999), but the style is the same between VI and VII, so the point stands :)
ReplyDeleteI could have sword MM7 had 5 characters. It's great that I'm starting to forget those games. But yes, the inventory system is the same.
DeleteMM8 had 5 characters, though the mechanics were mostly identical to 7 (with "traditionally evil" creatureslike Vampires and Dark Elves as options instead of most of the classic Might and Magic classes; only Cleric and Knight remained). 6 and 7 were 4, with 2 NPC hirelings that offered passive bonuses or a spell per day. Though to be fair, I think I haven't played OG 6 or 7 since I discovered the Merge mod, which puts all three into 8's engine and lets you jump between them, so that might be what you're thinking of.
DeleteBlogger has broken the log in thing, which is preventing me from actually logging in to comment.
Draw your sword!
Delete...and then he turns that semicolon into a dash.
ReplyDeleteIn many Continental-European countries, you are taught that the dash is just a "punctuation placeholder" and the semicolon is the correct punctuation mark there.
Actually, reading more and more English, I realized that English-speakers use punctuation differently from the rest of the European languages.
Examples:
- Where English writers use a dash, Continental-European writers would instead use a colon, or brackets, or a comma or an ellipsis, but never a "punctuation placeholder".
- Where Continental-Europeans use a colon, English writers would instead use a "dash", or a comma, or a semicolon, or even a colon.
- Where English writers use a semicolon, European ones use a colon.
- Where Europeans use a semicolon, English writers use a period (when Europeans use a period, English writers use a period, too).
I remember my primary school teacher the day we read a text translated from an American journalist, and we saw a printed dash for the first time ever. She explained that the dash was something that Americans use when they are not sure which punctuation mark goes there. Indeed, I also remember that my grammar book from junior high had a chapter detailing all the grammar rules about every punctuation mark. The dash was not even mentioned.
One or two years ago I asked a French language teacher I know about the dash. She confirmed that it is not taught in school, because it is not a punctuation mark in French. My wife is Hungarian, she said the same for her language.
IN SUMMARY: there are (at least) two separate rulesets for punctuation marks: the English one and the Continental-European one.
Delete(Previous anonymous comment by me, Abacos)
DeletePunctuation rules generally are language-specific, so there's no one "continental European" punctuation either. Most obvious case in point being the way question and exclamation marks are used at both ends of the sentence in Spanish.
DeleteI think the rules for punctuation in English are not super hard and fast; when i was doing some magazine writing my editor scolded me for using too many semicolons because it read like I was an academic (which of course I am). But now that my attention has been drawn to it, the semicolon in that passage is driving me nuts. It could be a dash but it really should be a comma, preferably with the redundant "the days" crossed out: "Fantasy role-playing games have come a long way since the early days of text-based gaming, when dungeon mazes were created by bored programmers on mainframe computers."
DeleteThe thing is that semicolons really have to coordinate the same kind of thing, so you can't stick a semicolon between a sentence and a "when" clause.
Yeah, Mat's edit is even better. Either way, it's horrid editing. He might as well have just tacked a "When you think about it," on at the beginning.
DeleteAlthough it may be off the topic by a lot, I still have to ask this: are there some well known - as if "set in stone", so to speak - rules for when NOT to use bits like "when you think about it", "on the surface" or "seem to" and when do use them? Is it a question of "good taste", something not easy to verbalize and and formulate with precision, or is there some precise logic behind this (for example, STARTING a text with "When you think about it" makes one feel that they missed a parapgraph or two since it works much better as a continuation or an aside, but not as a beginning or an introduction)...? As a non-native English speaker, this makes me wonder - I mean, in my native tongue there are a lot of rules that are a kind of "good taste", and a lot of rules that are believed to be "a good taste" but are actually traditions that no one breaks for little reason, and also some rules of thumb that DO have some logic behind them. even if not self-evident one.
DeleteI've heard editors call these phrases "unnecessary qualifiers" or "throat-clearing phrases." The general rule of editing is that you avoid unnecessary wordiness and you particularly avoid words that make the sentence less resolute. Are you trying to make a point or not?
DeleteLorigulf asks an interesting question.
DeleteIn my country, we are taught rules "set in stone" about punctuation and grammar (there is also a national institute that decides which words belong to the language and which ones are foreign loans), but almost nothing about writing style. It seems that the United States do almost the opposite. Is that correct ?
@Abacos: I would not say that we have set in stone rules about writing style--even Chet's rules about unnecessary quantifiers aren't set in stone, though I can't think of any exceptions right now. And just about nobody is going to agree on the stylistic rules. (For instance, someone is probably mad now that I started the last sentence with "And.") There are several guides that lay down principles though. Some linguists get angry at those guides but I think they're missing the point, something like ""Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs" isn't a ukase meant to be followed mechanically, it's a guideline meant to prompt you to think about whether you could stand to cut those nouns and adjectives down. At least, I think that's the best way to take them.
DeleteWe definitely don't have a national institute to set the rules for punctuation and grammar, though. Everyone argues about those too.
Also if your job requires to read a lot of student writing, you quickly find some things that drive you crazy. Mine is failure to use paragraph breaks properly. Also overuse of "also."
Delete> I've heard editors call these phrases "unnecessary qualifiers" or "throat-clearing phrases." The general rule of editing is that you avoid unnecessary wordiness and you particularly avoid words that make the sentence less resolute.
DeleteI think that a lot of "general rules of editing" were written at a time when things were published on paper and wordiness came with a very real dollar cost. In oral speech, these "unnecessary qualifiers" are used to glue sentences together as to make a train of argument, since in oral speech paragraphs are impossible. I feel that people use them these days because they want their written text sound like an oral argument, and not an academic article.
Which brings me to the next point: these days most "unnecessary qualifiers" are absolutely necessary, since the individual contributors like me, who can't invoke institutional authority, need to clearly identify what they think, what they know from reading, what they only believe they know, what they experienced, and so on, and so forth. Old fashioned newspaper style editing often erred on the side of over-stating the factualness of many things; "fact checking" was borne, in large part, by a response to Republicans pulling some sound bite out of a paid think tank (typically, Cato institute) paper and treating it as self-evident truth in oral arguments.
PS. If I look at my enterprise documentation writing guide, the key requirements are not "brevity" and "impact", but "clarity" and "lack of ambiguity".
DeleteMagazine pages don't fill themselves, you know! I suspect there may have been an element of padding involved. Also, these magazines were always written in a chatty, demotic style; I'm not convinced the sins described were entirely the result of uncaring Philistinism!
DeleteI feel sometimes that the anglophone discourse could actually do with being rather less resolute. Including the discourse on style. The amount of fervor invested in arguing over minuscule things like, say, Oxford comma is far too often far too much.
DeleteSame as Anonymous above, I think such qualifiers are actually useful and recommendable in certain instances. "Seem to" is an expression I for once use quite a bit (among others when commenting here), specifically to "make the sentence less resolute".
DeleteE.g. when I mention an information I've read about, but can't be sure my research on whether it's actually correct has been exhaustive, or when replying to a statement by our host or another commenter and interpreting what I understand they are saying without wanting to imply I'm 100% sure there is no misunderstanding.
I think* you folks are right about qualifiers in general. They can also be used as markers of evidentiality, like for Busca's example of something you've read about but not experienced.
DeleteBut it doesn't seem** like Jay Kee is trying to do something like that. He's professing to know RPGs have come a long way since the mainframes. Usually when I read a sentence with that kind of qualifier, I'm waiting for the writer to say "But this is all wrong!" Sometimes when I'm teaching philosophy students I say that devices like this are ways of putting a red shirt on a view--you know it's going to die by the end of the paper.
*there's another one of those qualifiers
**there's another! because I haven't read the entire review
@matt w: So today's average philosophy student you teach knows what a 'red shirt' is? I'm surprised.
Delete@Busca: I don't know that they get my jokes.
DeleteI can report that they do get references to Wayne's World (about sticking a "NOT" symbol in front of a sentence to negate it ) and Missy Elliott (the rule of contraposition is "flip it and reverse it"). They do not get Simpsons references. They have stopped getting the reference to Catdog that I was introduced to by a student back in 2005. SpongeBob references are eternal. They of course get "Livvy Dunne rizzed up Baby Gronk," which IIRC I had mentioned as part of an illustration about how my digressive style of telling stories was not a good model to emulate in their writing. When one student mentioned alternative win conditions in Magic: The Gathering (this was relevant to the course) and I said "You assemble the five pieces of the Exodia," they got that, or pretended to.
The Winged things are supposed to be the Wind Elementals.
ReplyDeleteThere is a combination of buttons you can click (Alt, Right Shift, *) that will bring up a lock chest in each chapter. These lock chests all have numerical solutions and function as cheats for each chapter, sometimes just giving money, restoratives, and rations, others giving quest items (an emerald for the chest solution for example). One way to frontload is to use the chest in chapter 1, then use the practice lute it gives you to level up enough to make money by the time you hit Lamut.
Incidentally the music that plays when you level up playing the lute getting better as you do was a really cool touch.
I've said it before, but again the Prima Strategy guide was outstanding for its era (for any era really). I still have my copy, pulled it out to reference a few things for this post.
The novelization adds a lot more to Gorath, which is good, since he was the best original character in it. It condenses some stuff, omits other, and focuses on some weird choices. I wouldn't rank it anywhere near Feist's best work, but it is interesting to read after playing the game and see the different aspects that hey and Neal Halford focuses on. Krondor: The Assassins was ok, The Tear of the Gods sucked almost as bad as the sequel game, and Jimmy and the Crawler was a letdown for being the culmination of his writing in Midkemia as well as the aspects from this game that never got touched upon in his other mainline books.
I own Betrayal at Antara but never really played it much. Maybe I will do a run alongside you when you get there.
I purchased Return to Krondor while I was home from my second deployment to Iraq, on emergency Red Cross leave for my grandfather's funeral. It gave me something to do while my parents were at work during the 2 weeks I was there. Graphically it is significantly better, but in every other way I believe it falls short of BaK.
Your rating is of course, yours, but I would agree with several other commenters that 4 for quests is low. You "skipped" a great deal of them in the later chapters, especially 4 and 6. Otherwise, I have to agree with you on almost everything. It is really nice to hear you appreciate music for once.
My first pc game was Secret of the Silver Blades (rpg-wise), and 1993 was about the time that my preference for the genre on pc began to match up with your playing schedule. I was looking forward to both Dark Sun and this and am really interested in seeing how the year turns out when you finally finish it up.
Thanks for all the work you do!
Perhaps nothing better demonstrates the dedication that BaK has to narrating every single detail than the fact that, if you use that Alt-Shift-* cheat code to access the cheat chest, it has specific in-game character narration for dealing with it. Check it out at "https://dimwood.net/misc.html#cheat"
DeleteI tried to play Return to Krondor, but fixed (and usually bad) camera perspective for each scene was unbearable, and lack of subtitles with a lot of spoken text was a final nail in its coffin, I think I only played for an hour or two before dropping it forever.
DeleteI'm not sure the Plato games are the best example. While the terms are not used consistently, usually there is a distinction made between a mainframe and a supercomputer, and the hardware PLATO ran on fell on the supercomputer side. A much weaker machine like the PDP-10 (which I think only had printer output) would also be called a mainframe, and would fit the description in the review much better. Not that I think the reviewer had any clue or that these mainframe games were written by "bored programmers".
ReplyDeleteWhen I think about it, that tells you how unlikely these PLATO games were to exist in the first place.
Suddenly contemplating the extent to which the PLATO games may have technically constituted felony misappropriation of educational grant money.
DeleteMakes one glad for the time when money was not so tightly controlled and investment of money was not so optimized, and it allowed genuinely good things to happen that bring joy to people decades later! I mean, we see this "money investment should be optimized for bringing more money" in gaming nowadays - and, since any system can really be optimized only for one parameter, quality, awesomeness, ethicality gets thrown out of the window. Even though optimization in education is not for money return but for some other parameter, still, really good outcomes more often than not happen from unoptimized investments. They, sure, are a scoruge for those who invest, but sometimes they bring happiness to people for years to come. After all, creating something that will bring joy to future generation IS, in a sense, "misappropriation" of money for someone who could not care less...!
Delete@Chet, I look at your screens in somewhat a confusion: did you ever bless anything at the temple? Particularly, did you ever do the best blessing?
ReplyDeleteThe bonuses it confers are very, very helpful.
I had weapons blessed when there was a temple available. Doesn't the sword in my one inventory screenshot show a blessing?
DeleteI don't know what a "best blessing" is. It's not a term that appears in the manual, and I don't remember encountering it in game dialogue.
And please choose a user name in the future.
DeleteI think this is where your colour-blindness played a trick on you. The colours of a blessing icon vary from, I believe, yellow, to violet, to dark purple; the last is the strongest one, and it corresponds to blessings from some of the gods. This information is definitely given in a temple when you try to bless an already blessed items. The difference is quite significant.
Deletehttps://dimwood.net/bless.html
Ah. I thought the blessings just did different things. I didn't realize they built on each other.
DeleteThey are not built upon each other; there are some gods who give you better blessing, as they are more militant ones.
DeleteGiven what you've expressed about your CRPG addiction in the past, "What makes men happy is liking what they are forced to do" indeed sounds like it could apply to your undertaking, maybe by changing "forced" to "compelled" or so.
ReplyDeleteDon't know if it's covered elsewhere, but this German magazine reproduces some excerpts of what Feist was asked and had to say about BaK after completion (/ release?) during a Compuserve conference: he could (have) envisage(d) the possibility of a whole series of games and, asked what he would change looking back, mentioned more interactions at inns, being pointed more clearly to your next task, but less to its solution, and small lore corrections like the (non-canon) cannons at Northwarden.
For anyone interested to see another blogger's thoughts on BaK, Waltorious wrote about it in 2013 as one of his (video game) 'history lessons', starting here.
A totally fair score to give this game. I played through it recently, mostly using a guide because I had got about 90% through it back in the mid 2000s, and felt it was a great game. Yet it isn't a fantastic CRPG.
ReplyDeleteThank you for taking us through this journey. I was excited and regularly checked for updates which when they were available I anxiously read right on my mobile. This says a lot about how awesome your review has been.
ReplyDeleteHowever, please do consider tossing the gimlet. Either that or going through all the older ones and re-evaluating them.
At this point it all doesn’t really make sense (and it probably is impossible to do this consistently over more than a decade).
But comparing BaK to some older milestones the gimlet simply doesn’t work anymore. I‘d suggest you either toss the numbers and just give a written statement (or something like +/0/-) or you take at least the milestones of the blog and compare them to each other to create something like a benchmark system.
Anyway, just because it’s always a little downer for me to see excellent games rate lower than M&M1 or something similar, doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy this ride. I‘d just suggest now is the time to re-think the Gimlet.
I don't see why; the GIMLET has never pretended to be anything it's not, it's simply a rating of how Chet specifically ranks games in these specific categories. Of course that means that, for example, a brilliant game that has no economy at all is going to suffer for it, but that's by design. And as I recall, right from the start the system has been ranking games against a theoretical perfection in each category, so older games can still be compared with newer ones. (No "this gets a 10 because it was good for its time").
DeleteWhat is the concrete argument why the GIMLET supposedly doesn't work anymore?
DeleteYou can see the ratings of the games that the CRPGAddict considers milestones and which games had the highest ratings in each category -- see the side bar (in desktop view).
You felt down because of your comparison with the rating of Might and Magic 1 -- but did you actually play M&M 1 and find it less than excellent, or are you disappointed that BaK rates lower than a game you haven't played?
In any case, I think assigning concrete numbers fosters more precise appraisals.
I would personally be somewhat more inclined to replay Might & Magic 1 than Betrayal at Krondor, so I don't see the relative GIMLETs to be a big problem.
DeleteI do think M&M 1 is overrated on the GIMLET. In particular, its record-high 8 for Quests is not justifiable in retrospect; I think it probably also received a higher score for Equipment and Game World than it would now. But I think even with a pretty aggressive correction it'd still edge out BaK.
The GIMLET is always going to be subjective and odd, because no human over the course of a multi-decade journey can completely factually and perfectly hew to it even if you did agree with his priorities on what makes a great CRPG. It's better to just read the actual words Chet writes and think about how he enjoyed it (or where he didn't) than worry about how some final numerical score edges out.
DeleteI do agree the GIMLET doesn't really work to/for me but also I don't care because I'm here for the analysis not the numbers.
I read CGW article about BaK, and I think you misread it. The "standard CRPG" paragraph spoke specifically how it won't be a standard 6-person party of predefined characters (it wasn't). Most of other criticisms dealt with the need for better image in CRPG's (I agree), less obviously redundant equipment, and more streamlined stats.
ReplyDeleteI think that 4 stats + 12 skills are quite enough for an RPG, and BaK's transparency with hit chances and the like is how things were done going forward, as opposed to DM-style "players should figure it out". I also think that the author argues indirectly with MUD's/DM clones/Ultima clones more than anything, since that's what a typical casual player would have experience with. Plus, despite the drawbacks, BaK's combat is better than 2/3rd of RPG's at that point, if we look at "major titles", and not "titles from 1993".