tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post8305873870477665488..comments2024-03-28T12:11:15.628-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game 243: The Wizard of Tallyron (1986)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-16258720787582088382021-10-02T23:38:12.621-04:002021-10-02T23:38:12.621-04:00I just spent some time comparing the codes, and th...I just spent some time comparing the codes, and the weird thing is that the lines are quite different while still producing substantially the same game. CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35953786952582230952021-10-02T23:24:47.550-04:002021-10-02T23:24:47.550-04:00That's interesting. That appears to be the sam...That's interesting. That appears to be the same game that appeared in the April 1982 <i>Computing Today</i> as <i>The Valley</i>, which I covered here:<br /><br />http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2014/03/game-142-valley-1982.html<br /><br />So Lloyd either plagiarized it or (perhaps more likely) is the original uncredited author. CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-40596514780824436912021-10-02T18:44:19.095-04:002021-10-02T18:44:19.095-04:00> We haven't had many type-in games on this...> We haven't had many type-in games on this blog<br /><br />Should you ever wish to play another one, the 1983 book “The Dragon Trainer” by Brian Lloyd ( https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Books/Dragon/The%20Dragon%20Trainer%20(Brian%20Lloyd).pdf ) features a CRPG named “The Valley of Death”. <br /><br />The game seems really obscure, it's not listed on any of the typical reference sites. I couldn't find any videos nor copies of the game as binary or source code, so I guess you may safely ignore it. A pair of screenshots of an earlier version of the game appear here: https://www.retromagazine.net/valley-of-death-dragon-32-64-basic/ Vaubannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73478729388169503512017-03-15T09:53:11.781-04:002017-03-15T09:53:11.781-04:00I think that's what the Usborne text adventure...I think that's what the Usborne text adventures I mentioned above did, effectively. I think there's a bit of a problem, though, in that it's still a bit awkward to input apparently-arbitrary strings of characters; when you're transcribing something into the UI from paper, being able to work with explicit *words* is a huge boon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13654418045518506706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-91701077896561415362017-03-09T01:38:50.611-05:002017-03-09T01:38:50.611-05:00Wouldn't the simple way to obscure text be to ...Wouldn't the simple way to obscure text be to have the player type it in ROT13ed, then run a decoder on it before displaying to the screen? That would only add a line or two of code but keep you from having to type in numeric data.Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-18031045872964483312017-02-27T19:45:56.800-05:002017-02-27T19:45:56.800-05:00It depends a lot on the program. Simple games and...It depends a lot on the program. Simple games and utility programs, sure, they'll probably just work, or take minimal adjustments for syntax variations. <br /><br />If you see PEEK and POKE in the code, then it's directly looking at and manipulating things in the computer's memory. Probably BIOS routines and other things not written by the program you're trying to port. Adjusting those requires not only that you're familiar with the two different dialects of BASIC, but also that you know both platforms well enough to translate things like how the hardware interfaces with its keyboard and screen. When you consider how many games made use of "hacks" by finding bits of BIOS code that could be used to perform operations other than their documented purposes, trying to port them can quickly become a nightmare. In some cases it would be easier to just write an entire emulator for the original system than to attempt to port the code. Or to write a clone of the program that does the same things, but entirely from scratch.tlhonmeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256644187305759072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-13121199682979317202017-02-27T09:30:21.011-05:002017-02-27T09:30:21.011-05:00I can recall a few type-ins from Spectrum magazine...I can recall a few type-ins from Spectrum magazines and books that might possibly fall within the Addict's remit (to such extent that they could in those days, at least!).<br /><br />One that I don't think *quite* would, but is still, I think, somewhat interesting, would be Assault of the Ogroids from Sinclair User's May '87 issue - being effectively a solo boardgame with (very) light RPG elements with the CPU handling the mathematical admin side of things - so encounters were largely 'use the computer to generate a value, then look it up in the table in the magazine'. Character progression is - if I remember rightly - limited to accumulating certain tools to make encounters easier, so wouldn't really fall under the remit of the Addict. I'd still regard it as an interesting quirk of the era. I'm sure SU had a second, similar boardgamey experiment, too, starring their mascot cartoon character, but I'm really struggling to find it, and suspect it's no closer to being within the remit anyway.<br /><br />There's a second potential-RPG from Sinclair User, thinking about it - one appeared on a covertape at one point and I've got a nagging feeling it may have been a type-in at one point.<br /><br />(After doing research to remind myself): Right, there's an author named Martin Page who made a number of RPG-esque titles; the first - Forest of Long Shadows - was a type-in, as was Goblin's Mountain, the next. Portals of P'thaal, the one I can actually recall, was a covermount. I've a nagging feeling I *may* have mentioned Portals before with Chet deciding it didn't fall under his remit, but I'm not sure and searching comments is nontrivial!<br /><br />There is another type-in that springs to mind, but this one is offset by the fact that I've often had difficulty recalling the source - I took a book out from the library that was something like "Five type-in adventures for your ZX Spectrum!", but it used the term 'adventure' loosely - IIRC, two were straight text adventures, one (pegged as a 'tribe adventure', if I recall) was a loose strategy game in the vein of various simple town management sims ("How many people do you want working the fields/guarding the town/resting" sort of thing), and I'm sure one - possibly two - was a very loose RPG - I remember a line drawing of a sabre-toothed tiger as an enemy encounter. Again, they'd be somewhat limited based on just how much people could realistically be coaxed into typing in! <br /><br />I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there weren't more out there (and on other platforms, too; I did a lot of stuff with BBC Basic too and I'm somewhat surprised I'm not recalling any content on that front), but I think all of it will be inherently a *bit* limited simply due to a question of scale.<br /><br />There's another mention somewhere up there about how some type-ins would have to obscure the text somehow - shifting focus to text adventures for a moment, I do recall a few type-ins doing that, with simple text encryption of any key strings. One notable pair would be a couple of Usborne books, which included listings (and a whole bunch of theming and storyline content) for one reasonably-sized text adventure each; I've just looked on Usborne's site, and the two in the series - Mystery of Silver Mountain and Island of Secrets - have been put up for download. I now need to resist the urge to set up a BBC Basic environment when I've got a free weekend!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13654418045518506706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-4215890252089774542017-02-27T08:58:58.278-05:002017-02-27T08:58:58.278-05:00And here I was thinking it somehow aided the wield...And here I was thinking it somehow aided the wielder's digestion.Raifieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08478524519453417677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60278669764161949152017-02-27T06:03:35.231-05:002017-02-27T06:03:35.231-05:00What would the hermit need the gold for? If he'...What would the hermit need the gold for? If he's going to use it to buy stuff, it would defeat the purpose of going into hermitage, won't it?Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24882263297880816532017-02-27T06:00:44.466-05:002017-02-27T06:00:44.466-05:00Thing is, you can beat it under 30 minutes.Thing is, you can beat it under 30 minutes.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-48599835938593756402017-02-27T05:31:13.972-05:002017-02-27T05:31:13.972-05:00A quest for a buried hare reminds me of Kit Willia...A quest for a buried hare reminds me of Kit Williams' Masquerade...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-3358224845097501232017-02-27T04:37:03.999-05:002017-02-27T04:37:03.999-05:00What do hares have to do with bells? The only thin...What do hares have to do with bells? The only thing I can think of is the Harebell flower, which is quite common here in the UK. Admittedly, a slightly obscure connection...Binkbenchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03947673688012262911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-44629023075073223602017-02-27T02:38:59.531-05:002017-02-27T02:38:59.531-05:00At least I recall most listing in the mid 1980ies ...At least I recall most listing in the mid 1980ies to have been of the DATA statement variety. In those cases the more reasonable comparison metric is the filesize. The listings I recall are a lot closer to this wikipedia example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type-in_program#/media/File:ComputesGazetteProgramPage.jpg<br /><br />A rough lower limit estimation would give use 20 bytes per line, 50 lines per column and 3 columns per page, so ~ 3k per column. To file a C64 floppy side (165kB), you'd need 55 pages. I don't think I ever saw anything like that, but I do recall most massive type-ins to have been over 10 pages long.<br /><br />Still, Iffy's point stands. The top of the line RPGs were rather data intensive compared to action games, and I doubt there were many notable ones amongst the type-in games.unimuralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06987909304909067445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67863493203588691712017-02-27T01:18:35.982-05:002017-02-27T01:18:35.982-05:00I remember being drafted by my brother to read lin...I remember being drafted by my brother to read line after line of code using Compute! magazine's machine language compiler. Just line after line of numbers...at least it used a checksum to detect errors as they happened...god, that was torture, and killed my budding interest in programming.KenHRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613789646908929989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-87604381248489257272017-02-26T22:24:54.301-05:002017-02-26T22:24:54.301-05:00I'd expect one who is savvy enough could edit ...I'd expect one who is savvy enough could edit the game to expand and improve it.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-84212893723660400862017-02-26T22:07:01.717-05:002017-02-26T22:07:01.717-05:00When I was a kid I would type in games on my C64 t...When I was a kid I would type in games on my C64 that were written for other computers. There was a lack of C64 books at the library and it was pretty simple to replace the unknown lines and symbols with ones teh C64 could understand. The real problem was the character limit. You could only have 3 screen lines worth of text before it was too long. I had to learn all the shortcut characters (like using $ instead of PRINT) and even then sometimes the lines were too long. I learned a lot about programming basic. Good times.ima420rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07889119176460931015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-86094114369703991992017-02-26T20:33:44.815-05:002017-02-26T20:33:44.815-05:00I agree with Iffy Bonzoolie that 'lines of cod...I agree with Iffy Bonzoolie that 'lines of code' is not a very meaningful measure. Though it's interesting that you picked Wizardry: somebody reconstructed the source code of the Apple II version of Wizardry I (it's on the Asimov archive), so we can give a pretty good answer. It has 15000 lines of code. Printed at 50 lines per page, that would be a 300 page book. Note that that does not include maps and graphics and such.<br /><br />There will of course be a lot of variation from game to game, but "one book" would be a good general estimate for an early 80s game, and "a couple of books" for a 1990 game.Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-23419424645847459092017-02-26T18:59:59.515-05:002017-02-26T18:59:59.515-05:00It's pretty hard to say -- as you might expect...It's pretty hard to say -- as you might expect, two programmers with different talent levels, education, and/or life experiences might approach any program very differently. So both thinking time and lines of code could vary significantly for the exact same program requirements.<br /><br />What I think is most antithetical between type-ins and RPGs is the fact that any text or information that shows up in the game has to be entered somewhere. Type-in programs are unique in that the intended end-user is the one typing in the code. So a) any secrets have to be obfuscated in some way, perhaps in the binary DATA sections, and b) each letter of any plot text has to be typed in in some form, even if obfuscated or compressed. These listings were printed in magazines. I bet any given entire type-in programs were shorter than just the text from just one Wizardry game.Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-85372212529016284252017-02-26T16:52:39.377-05:002017-02-26T16:52:39.377-05:00It is a reference to the PS3 game Genji: Days of t...It is a reference to the PS3 game Genji: Days of the Blade, more specifically to the E3 preview presentation. The developer went on a long spiel about how the game was based, after extensive research, on actual battles of feudal Japan - two minutes before showing a boss fight introduced with "so, there's this giant enemy crab". Much touted features of the game were the "real time weapon switching" (you change weapons without going into a menu) and the ability to attack enemies in their weak points for MASSIVE DAMAGE. This went memetic not only for the obvious contrast between the claimed historical accuracy and fighting giant monsters, but for the fact that both "real time weapon change" and "attacking the weak point" have been part of video games for literally decades, dating back to very early NES games.Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-28677310353320612812017-02-26T13:34:27.470-05:002017-02-26T13:34:27.470-05:00You can read about it here: http://fallout.wikia.c...You can read about it here: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Grognak_%26_the_Ruby_Ruins<br /><br />It's a turn-based, party-based RPG that plays a lot like Bard's Tale with Ultima-style top-down exploration. It's simpler than those games, of course, but way more complex than the other holotape games.sorpigalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-25966374289781538342017-02-26T12:37:39.161-05:002017-02-26T12:37:39.161-05:00You don't have to apologize. My goal is to be ...You don't have to apologize. My goal is to be as comprehensive as possible. I had forgotten that you were the one who e-mailed me about it.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8095566170276367892017-02-26T12:36:48.295-05:002017-02-26T12:36:48.295-05:00Your question raises an issue that I didn't de...Your question raises an issue that I didn't deal with well. I just assume that any program small enough to fit into a few pages in a magazine can't possibly be sophisticated as an RPG. But how would the size of this program compare to, say, <i>Wizardry</i>? I honestly don't know.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-32465195401754400432017-02-26T12:35:40.531-05:002017-02-26T12:35:40.531-05:00This is a reference that's going over my head....This is a reference that's going over my head.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-79594521745588839682017-02-26T12:35:30.710-05:002017-02-26T12:35:30.710-05:00This is a reference that's going over my head....This is a reference that's going over my head.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-36777810983643361002017-02-26T12:35:03.750-05:002017-02-26T12:35:03.750-05:00It was the third part to the key, so it's pret...It was the third part to the key, so it's pretty crucial. 100 gold pieces would be a lot in the early game, but I didn't explore that forest square until late.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.com