tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post8276550536262762076..comments2024-03-29T02:34:55.592-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Camelot: Won! (with Summary and Rating)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12744809442531904832023-02-11T22:04:05.268-05:002023-02-11T22:04:05.268-05:00There is a youtuber named Josh Srife Hayes who pla...There is a youtuber named Josh Srife Hayes who playes MMORPGs, and he has done the thing where he plays early MMOs where someone has kept a sever running and walking around areas that obviously once had dozens or hundreds of active players and it's just him does indeed invoke that feeling. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-79715101644542241892020-01-21T22:24:33.012-05:002020-01-21T22:24:33.012-05:00I didn't know that phrase was attributed to Da...I didn't know that phrase was attributed to Da Vinci: Paul Valéry co-opted it centuries later, though I think he may have been quoting another French poet.Brandon P. Ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890809467464256151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-39455234372253457712020-01-13T16:03:01.411-05:002020-01-13T16:03:01.411-05:00Your fallacy is in thinking that each is similar i...Your fallacy is in thinking that each is similar in the reasons behind its categorical scores. The "highest score from each category" only makes sense if the game that scores the highest fully overlaps the one that scored the lowest.<br /><br />In other words, say I gave each game a 4/10 in the economy because each game had 40% of what I look for in that category. If they each had a DIFFERENT 40%, putting them together would give you an 8/10 game, not a 4/10 game. In that sense, 74% is the LOWEST score possible if you simply mashed them together. The highest score possible is the two individual ones added together, maxing of course at 10.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-8964801261267908052020-01-13T13:07:42.878-05:002020-01-13T13:07:42.878-05:00>> "But Ultima V (1988) is already a 69...>> "But Ultima V (1988) is already a 69-point game on the GIMLET. Pool of Radiance from the same year is 65 points. The two games have different strengths and weaknesses. Mash them together and you have an 85-point game, easy."<br /><br />I clearly have too much time on my hands, because this comment prompted me to compare the scores for each category between the two games. The only category in which one clearly dominates the other is Economy (5 point lead to U5). The others are all within two points of each other at most, with 3 categories tied. If you sum up the highest score from each category the total would only be 74. While that would still beat the current high score by a good margin, it's nowhere near 85.<br /><br />All of this is completely pointless and a waste of both your time and mine, of course. :P But it does make me wonder what the ideal mashup of Ultima and Gold Box looks like in your head.<br /><br />Before anyone asks, here were the scores: <br /><br /><br />(U5/PoR)<br /><br />Game World: 8/8<br />Character C&D: 4/6<br />NPC Interaction: 8/6<br />Encounters & Foes: 7/8<br />Magic & Combat: 6/8<br />Equipment: 7/5<br />Economy: 8/3<br />Quests: 7/7<br />G, S & I: 6/6<br />Gameplay: 8/8DGMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-37402393539634404472020-01-09T03:51:57.457-05:002020-01-09T03:51:57.457-05:00Mordor was based on Avatar, an earlier PLATO game....Mordor was based on Avatar, an earlier PLATO game. Chet gave it a brief overview here:<br /><br />http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2013/11/game-124-avatar-1979.htmlstepped pyramidsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-18900936913456703942020-01-08T22:05:37.251-05:002020-01-08T22:05:37.251-05:00By "technology" I had meant game design ...By "technology" I had meant game design technology, not computer technology... I also like to think of how "acting technology" has improved in the past century. I was definitely not being clear.Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-32307253483028558402020-01-08T19:58:35.788-05:002020-01-08T19:58:35.788-05:00I remember playing games on my Apple IIe in the la...I remember playing games on my Apple IIe in the late 80s, which had a monochrome green-and-black screen. (Yes, I know the IIe could do colour, but I didn't have the right screen hardware.)<br /><br />And I used to get downright scared at times playing games that weren't even horror.<br /><br />There's something about all that blackness in the screen, about system-font text coming to you from an unknown creator with unknown motivations, about that space between a bug and an unexpected behaviour that you fall into when the game doesn't behave *quite* as it should...<br /><br />It's spooky, in a way that I've very rarely felt on modern systems.GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-11387450981340108612020-01-08T19:55:24.262-05:002020-01-08T19:55:24.262-05:00I get literally zero out of the GIMLET. Chet prov...I get literally zero out of the GIMLET. Chet provides extensive, nuanced prose commentary about the game through the substantive articles, and there's nothing that an arbitrary score can do to improve on my understanding of the game. Nor do I really think anyone's coming here to look at the GIMLET scores to work out what games are good without reading the articles (although I may be wrong).<br /><br />But Chet's the kind of person who likes numbers and systems and rankings, and I get that, and no one has ever come with a flawless way of turning subjective opinions into numbers, and this one seems as good as any.GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-41289651364658952642020-01-08T17:51:40.378-05:002020-01-08T17:51:40.378-05:00Well clearly I'm in between the two of you.
...Well clearly I'm in between the two of you. <br /><br />I would simply ask people to remember that I'm not rating <i>experiences</i> here--I'm not rating "fun"--I'm rating RPGs. I don't think you can make a serious argument that <i>Dungeons of Daggorath</i> is a great RPG, as memorable as it might be as an experience. A tabletop player of the day would hardly recognize it as an RPG.<br /><br />PK Thunder's comparison to films is a valid one, but it took films a few decades to reach the point at which a 2020 viewer would find them compelling entertainment. CRPGs just were not there in the early 1980s. <br /><br />However, I'd also ask you to keep in mind that modern technology is hardly a REQUIREMENT for a high rating on the GIMLET. A game that reaches into the 80s or 90s COULD be developed with mid-1980s technology. Heck, probably one could even be developed on PLATO. They just weren't. But <i>Ultima V</i> (1988) is already a 69-point game on the GIMLET. <i>Pool of Radiance</i> from the same year is 65 points. The two games have different strengths and weaknesses. Mash them together and you have an 85-point game, easy.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-37240443752478758172020-01-08T17:25:10.048-05:002020-01-08T17:25:10.048-05:00I'm not sure there's a theoretical limit t...I'm not sure there's a theoretical limit to how good an RPG can get. What is a "10?" It is kind of like a level cap. It feels artificial.<br /><br />It totally makes sense to have benchmarks. Maybe it would help to have a detailed GIMLET for, say, Baldur's Gate or Skyrim to understand the scale.<br /><br />But, you can always make something better. Oftentimes technological improvements come in jumps. Even though you've left a lot of room, someday you will wish you had even more room.<br /><br />So why make it a 100 point scale? How about it just goes as high as it needs to to represent the spectrum? And that spectrum is likely to change as more RPGs are made. So really it's just how a game compares to your benchmarks.Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-51400785879083746482020-01-08T16:36:27.252-05:002020-01-08T16:36:27.252-05:00Addict, I think all that is valid, but -- as you k...Addict, I think all that is valid, but -- as you know -- there's also a perspective that would hold RPGs (and other games) haven't "improved", they've just become more complex and aesthetically different.<br /><br />Put differently, I have more <i>fun</i> playing <i>Dungeons of Daggorath</i> than (insert modern RPG here). And I feel it has <i>superior</i> graphics and sound to many recent releases because those graphics and sounds do a better job of furthering the game's experiential and aesthetic goals in a way that rewards me. (I might even say that and <i>only</i> that is what graphics and sound are for.)<br /><br />So were I doing a project like this, my rankings would always be rigged so that my subjective enjoyment of the game -- or more accurately, the gratification and satisfaction I get from playing it -- is paramount, and my rankings of things like graphics and sound would explicitly rate them relative to the effectiveness with which they further the goals of that particular experience.<br /><br />That said, of course the GIMLET is, and should be, what <b>you</b> want it to be. But I think this discussion is always going to come up because, to a lot of people, the idea of "room to grow" doesn't at all seem like an intrinsic part of the RPG narrative (from an evaluative point of view), any more than it's part of the narrative of music or cinema.<br /><br />Once an art form develops to the point of offering what might describe as an essentially complete, self-contained experience, later aesthetic and technical developments aren't necessarily experienced as "progress" by all consumers. Otherwise the best jazz recordings of all time would be coming out right now, from musicians who can play every lick of their forebears forwards and backwards, and yet they're not; otherwise we would have contrapuntists who exceed Bach, and yet we don't (certainly not within that idiom).PK Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416777230563913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-54685210182684111012020-01-08T15:58:16.887-05:002020-01-08T15:58:16.887-05:00What most people don't understand about the re...What most people don't understand about the review system is that it's meant to rank every RPG that has ever existed, so naturally it needs a lot of room to grow. If a 1982 game were able to achieve an 80 or 90 IN 2020, that would hardly leave enough room for the much more detailed stories, the greater depth of NPCs, the myriad options in character advancement and combat, the vastly improved inventories and bestiaries, the dozens of side quests, and of course the graphics and sound of modern games.<br /><br />A 36-point game can be addicting and fun, but come on, it was 1982. The genre had a long way to go. And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that in 1982, it wasn't more than a third of the way there.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1460414921266822352020-01-08T14:50:52.054-05:002020-01-08T14:50:52.054-05:00I think reviews in general are really interesting ...I think reviews in general are really interesting as a concept. A critic has to walk some kind of line where they have to please their peers, their audience, and the industry, or they can get themselves essentially blackballed. There's too much money in games for honest reviewing.<br /><br />So, now, decades after these games originally came out, and with the companies that made them largely gone or absorbed into nothingness, and with many of the people who made them out of the industry, or even dead, they can really be honestly reviewed.<br /><br />But who is going to do it? And who is consistent and methodical enough for the reviews to actually be meaningful? Pretty much just Chet, for his own addiction-riddled purposes.<br /><br />And, as with every review system, you have to modulate based on what you like. The GIMLET actually breaks this out in pretty fine detail. You could take the category scores and apply a factor to each one based on your importance.<br /><br />I've been trying to figure out wine scores lately. It's pretty tough. Some raters just have a skewed scale, usually higher. The whole scale is basically compressed up to the 88-100 range, anyway. And then once you are up in the high 90's... it's going to be a good (and expensive) wine. Below that there's too much noise to really tell. And, of course, too much money in it for ratings to be truly honest.Iffy Bonzooliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519858732154180575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-51646285038294740052020-01-08T08:32:58.287-05:002020-01-08T08:32:58.287-05:00OK, I looked at CRPG Addict's spreadsheet and ...OK, I looked at CRPG Addict's spreadsheet and found that the original Wizardry I was scored a 37. So perhaps I spoke rather rashly (or arbitrarily to use my own words).<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-20655722267253767932020-01-08T07:52:24.994-05:002020-01-08T07:52:24.994-05:00I like the scoring sytem here, it is clear what pa...I like the scoring sytem here, it is clear what parts are apriciated and it is by the autors highly personal taste in rpgs but it still gives an indication on what to expect if you would play the game yourself and what parts and games that are recomend. and i like that its not an inflated number sytem that is so common on other reviewpagesstmpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-81051898986301376772020-01-08T07:10:45.691-05:002020-01-08T07:10:45.691-05:00I enjoy reading this review, as I enjoy reading mo...I enjoy reading this review, as I enjoy reading most of CRPG Addict's reviews. But I always found the review scores of his to be rather low and arbitrary--the fact that he was captivated by the gameplay to finish the game all the way through would surely deserve a score that is higher than 36.<br /><br />As a CRPG creator myself (where one of my games is on his list to be reviewed--I am quite certain he will savage it to shreds when he gets around to it;) ), I think what should be considered is that creating such games is incredibly hard work. Consider the differences between Wizardry and Ultima. The former places an emphasis on rules and game mechanics while the latter just uses a simple hit points counter while giving you a world to explore with NPCs to interact with. I am admittedly an autistic rules munchkin, so I am more of a Wizardry fan.<br /><br />But anyway, those are my two cents. The CRPG genre does need its fans and critics who are not familiar with the technical aspects (this is not a backhanded comment--without an audience that provide some feedback, whether financial or critical, then there is no motivation to actually create). I think that the creation of Camelot is quite the achievement and I should finally get myself a pterm account so that I can play those legendary PLATO games after reading about them after all these years.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12989169756886103262020-01-08T06:55:09.999-05:002020-01-08T06:55:09.999-05:00"Good artists copy, great artists steal"..."Good artists copy, great artists steal" - PicassoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68787737381765815362020-01-08T06:41:59.189-05:002020-01-08T06:41:59.189-05:00"Works of art are never completed, only aband..."Works of art are never completed, only abandoned" - Da Vinci.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-71036611856436228232020-01-07T18:17:04.449-05:002020-01-07T18:17:04.449-05:00Seeing "Excalibur" in rainbow letters in...Seeing "Excalibur" in rainbow letters in your inventory list is pretty neat, I have to admit. On a system that has basically no capacity for visual flair, little touches like that can mean a lot.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14025511634630902101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31184943305764388642020-01-07T17:48:24.001-05:002020-01-07T17:48:24.001-05:00I hear you, but I don't think you suspicions b...I hear you, but I don't think you suspicions based on the timing of reviews is enough to override the game's own documentation. If something more concrete comes up, I'll be glad to change it.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-79547239679411058002020-01-07T17:43:46.728-05:002020-01-07T17:43:46.728-05:00It's something that got added recently. Until ...It's something that got added recently. Until the final session, I was using a version of Pterm (the terminal emulator) that didn't even support the colors, but Tabin insisted that the ending would be ruined without them.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-3896819359816068582020-01-07T16:39:47.061-05:002020-01-07T16:39:47.061-05:00Congratulations and thanks for documenting this ga...Congratulations and thanks for documenting this game!<br /><br />This is the first time I see screenshots of a PLATO game with more colors than orange and black. Is this a PLATO feature that was added years after most of the games you've covered here were developed? <br /><br />In some screenshots, the "res" in "Cha: 21 res" is green, in others it's all orange. How come?Bitmapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-41053674704197676332020-01-07T15:14:29.034-05:002020-01-07T15:14:29.034-05:00One of my many dreams that I love to fantasize abo...One of my many dreams that I love to fantasize about, but will probably never realize, is to create bootleg servers for AOL Neverwinter Nights.<br /><br />There's an open-source C# port of Curse of the Azure Bonds which might be used as a starting point, but I couldn't get it to work in Visual Studio. While I know enough to code crappy little Unity games and Python convenience scripts, I don't have the tools or know-how necessary to reverse engineer a game from scratch.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14025511634630902101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-27069939742264016742020-01-07T06:19:54.694-05:002020-01-07T06:19:54.694-05:00Ehm... I'm totally on board with Harland?Ehm... I'm totally on board with Harland? Risingson Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915480026187953569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-34625457855560716732020-01-07T04:10:00.668-05:002020-01-07T04:10:00.668-05:00Eh, I'm over it. I went on to a life that had...Eh, I'm over it. I went on to a life that had nothing to do with computers, and I'm better for it. Got out of the industry after the dotcom crash and never looked back. Following this blog is one of the only remaining vestiges of my old computer techie life. It's a great way to see someone play games that I'd never have the patience for today, and it was just a big surprise to find out - again and again - that all these people back then always had an ace in the hole. Always a parent who had some amazing access to incredibly expensive computers while all I had was 3583 bytes free and no modem. <br /><br /><i> Is it possible that someone who bails at the 60% mark has actually had a more representative experience of the game than the person who finishes it?</i><br /><br />That's the point I was trying to make, yes. Today it seems most people finish games because there are always FAQs, walkthroughs, let's plays, etc. Back then? Either you figured it out on your own or nothing. That's one way victories meant so much more.<br /><br />I remember Scott Adams Pirate Adventure, a game I could never finish. I had a claw hammer and there was this rug that was nailed to the floor; clearly something was supposed to happen there and I racked my brains over years, loading the game up once in a while, getting to that point, and then putting away the VIC-20 again. Later, when USENET and FAQs came about I found out the correct command was GET NAILS. How was I ever friggen supposed to know that. <br /><br />I think that most people played games like that back then. A win was something special. You'd play one game for a while, not win, put it away, and then 6-12 months later take it back out and see if you could make any more progress. It took me a long time to win my first game of Civilization (1). <br /><br /><br />That on-again, off-again method is how I used to play nethack, learning more and more with every pass, until I finally ascended (v3.1.3) after about ten years of play. I would never have won without massive help. I studied every FAQ and guide I could find, and even still I felt a legitimate achievement when I finally wrested the Amulet of Yendor from the Wizard's corpse for the first time. Harlandnoreply@blogger.com