tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post8152441000064802639..comments2024-03-28T07:13:19.910-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Moria: Older and Fouler Things than OrcsCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26452470442439692252015-02-18T03:56:18.487-05:002015-02-18T03:56:18.487-05:00Zangband was my favorite variant also. It's wo...Zangband was my favorite variant also. It's worth playing Angband first to see how it improved on Moria, but then Zangband takes everything to the next level.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-89481047456738207832015-02-18T03:54:18.684-05:002015-02-18T03:54:18.684-05:00Yeah. Overall, Angband is a much more rewarding ga...Yeah. Overall, Angband is a much more rewarding game. Experiencing Moria does give you a good baseline for seeing how that branch developed over time.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-46175933855527719022015-02-17T14:05:03.948-05:002015-02-17T14:05:03.948-05:00My earliest exposure to Moria (and to roguelike ga...My earliest exposure to Moria (and to roguelike games period) was a DOS version that had several classes that weren't in the standard versions, including Sages, Ninjas, Wizards (I forget how they differed from Mages) and Jesters. It seems this version may have been called "pmoria",but I can't find any information about it now other than a single Usenet post (one asking about the Sage/Ninja spell books, which I remember also being unable to figure out and reluctantly concluding that those classes were simply unfinished and unplayable in the version I had)<br /><br />I can't even remember how I discovered the game. It may have been on a shareware CD with other games, or I may have downloaded it from Compuserve (remember that?) Does anyone else remember this version of Moria?AWJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-4281269157207100052015-02-15T12:03:51.337-05:002015-02-15T12:03:51.337-05:00:-D
I'll keep my mouth shut. But then again, a...:-D<br />I'll keep my mouth shut. But then again, archive.org only have the binary distribution, so it will take quite a while to decompile and check :-)Håkon Gautnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88139400034019275092015-02-14T20:22:41.540-05:002015-02-14T20:22:41.540-05:00I downloaded it from here:
https://archive.org/de...I downloaded it from here:<br /><br />https://archive.org/details/TheDungeonsOfMoria<br /><br />While I suppose it's worth correcting my assumptions if they're wrong, for the sake of future generations reading these posts, you will absolutely NOT be doing me any favors by telling me that these special items DO exist and I just need to keep playing and have patience. I would much rather believe that this version is unwinnable and move on.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-14894101853842985662015-02-14T18:54:07.034-05:002015-02-14T18:54:07.034-05:00I'm really getting curious here. Your version ...I'm really getting curious here. Your version seems to be rather strange, and the .3 at the end indicates a higher version than the final official version from Koeneke before Grabiner took over development and started the 5.-versions.<br /><br />Where did you find your version? I would be happy to take a look and see what I can find in the source :-)Håkon Gautnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-53921702510058799242015-02-14T18:43:20.913-05:002015-02-14T18:43:20.913-05:00Well, you got me curious enough to dig up the 4.8....Well, you got me curious enough to dig up the 4.8.7 source code :-)<br /><br />Both speed items and EGO-weapons are in there (unless the one who compiled your executables took it out to be funny - ha ha...). But they are exceedingly rare (and has always been, really). I don't know how many hours you have spent, but I have vivid memories of playing all the way up to level 36, 37 and 38 with none or only a useless EGO-weapon and no speed items.<br /><br />And then just as vivid memories of finding Boots of Speed [+1] on 250 feet (and once killing singing, happy drunks in town for all evenings a full week to buy a ring of speed from the shop...). In both cases I got over confident and died around level 20...Håkon Gautnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-48092362238950610932015-02-14T17:06:41.781-05:002015-02-14T17:06:41.781-05:00I'll take your advice in Angband if it has the...I'll take your advice in <i>Angband</i> if it has the same rules. As I said below, I'm not convinced speed items or artifact weapons actually exist in this version. If they do, they're so rare that almost three dozen visits to levels below 50 have failed to turn any up.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-75359831449141650742015-02-14T17:03:36.416-05:002015-02-14T17:03:36.416-05:00This version doesn't allow you to put numbers ...This version doesn't allow you to put numbers in front of commands to execute them multiple times. Not unless there's some trick that I'm not seeing.<br /><br />You're correct about "s" and "r" of course, but keep in mind that I'm save-scumming, so the prospect of death isn't as terrifying as in a regular game. I've yet to be attacked holding down "s." Monsters don't respawn in your active area that often.<br /><br />I'm not convinced that items "of Speed" exist in this version. I haven't found any, the manual doesn't say anything about speed, and the download came with some very high-level sample characters, none of whom have anything involving speed.<br /><br />I simply can't spend that much time on a single character, regardless of the creators' intent. I can spend that much time on the TOTALITY of the game, as I did in <i>NetHack</i>, understanding that winning will be a real victory and I'll lose dozens of characters along the way, but months on one character is just nuts.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88955156994123690372015-02-14T16:57:44.365-05:002015-02-14T16:57:44.365-05:00I think I would like that. Breaks the monotony a b...I think I would like that. Breaks the monotony a bit and presents the main quest in stages.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-39159200712910399212015-02-14T14:06:20.619-05:002015-02-14T14:06:20.619-05:00Definitely agree there, Addict. Winning at Moria t...Definitely agree there, Addict. Winning at Moria takes lots and lots of hours even if you save scum and read spoilers. I don't think I saw more than 2 others ever winning at the university server with centralized save games during my 5 years there...<br /><br />The main reason is that it is (for most) much more fun diving fast and taking risks in the game. To win you need to stay careful, conservative and basically boring. The skill most needed is probably patience. <br /><br />I'm a bit surprised that the "fast" didn't appear on screen (approximatly in the middle, 2 lines from the bottom of a standard terminal window.) I know I won on the same version you use, and can't remember that I didn't get that. It could be a sloppily compiled (or intentionally modified) binary, or just my rusty memory from 25 years back. <br /><br />You really need permanent speed items (and all stats at max; 18/00) before going that deep. It usually took one weekend (20-30 hours) to get a character ready to start searching for speed items: I stayed at 1250 feet (+/- 1 level) looking for stat increase potions (which are most plentiful around there) until all stats were maxed out.<br />Then the next step (after 20-30 hours) was going down to 2400 feet to get at least one permanent speed item. They are supposedly most plentiful from 2500 feet down, but at 2400 I won't meet Big B and I have 1 level of security in case of a trap-door dropping me one level down.<br /><br />Ancient Dragons are fast. To kill them you preferably need a SD (Slay Dragon) weapon, more speed than them, which requires a permanent item and a spell/staff/potion), protection from their element _and_ potions of resist their element (one potion/mushroom and one ring or other item stacks for double resistance 1/9 damage instead of 1/3, I think). And even with that they hit _hard_ so you should have good armour as well. And remember to teleport away to heal. I think the Balrog is the only monster to heal at all, and even if others do they do it much slower than you.<br /><br />Since you're even playing before version 5 you probably should use the "Grape Jelly Trick" as well to win. It's an exploit that came in two versions. One is (imo) pure cheating the other simply a way to patch an error that was fixed in version 5: Grape Jellies drain your XP, but does (almost?) no damage. The trick is to let it drain you down to level 1 (or 3 if you don't save scum, it's not fun to die from the trick). In the "cheater versions" you would then get Mana and HP (increasing you max with the gain from your new, improved stats) re-applied when you used a scroll or mushroom of restoration (giving a possibility for infinite HP and Mana). <br />In the "fix a bug" versions it would just give you the difference between what you got when you first levelled up and what you would get with you current stats (which is automatically done in versions after 5).<br /><br />Anyway I'm looking forward to the conclusion.Håkon Gautnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73264941538302091542015-02-14T12:57:13.444-05:002015-02-14T12:57:13.444-05:00There's another aspect to consider Chet, which...There's another aspect to consider Chet, which is one of joint experience:<br /><br />When two players play a game with arbitrary saving, they will have a similar experience of the game only if they take a similar approach to saving games. When you have a game with permadeath or restricted saving (dark souls?) the fact that people are more likely to be playing by similar rules means greater communal experience.<br /><br />It's not just restricted to RPGs either. There is far more passionate conversation about the gameplay in Goldeneye (no saves, 2 to 20 minute missions) than there is in BioShock (defaults to respawn on death with enemies that are still damaged).Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-72972742838882490022015-02-14T12:31:46.022-05:002015-02-14T12:31:46.022-05:00I had to hex-edit my character from the 120,000 ex...I had to hex-edit my character from the 120,000 experience points that I had to the 350,000 I needed to reach Level 33 and thus acquire "Haste." I cast it. The word "fast" did not appear at the bottom of the screen. It did seem to affect my speed in combat, but even at that level, I was unable to defeat an Ancient Red Dragon despite having a Ring of Fire Resistance and 5 potions of cure critical wounds.<br /><br />I've made more than 2 dozen trips to levels below 50 and have yet to encounter the Balrog or any items with permanent haste or speed on them.<br /><br />At this point, I don't think I'm going to continue with the game. I've clearly played enough to get the gist of it.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-242222638246087482015-02-14T05:04:45.553-05:002015-02-14T05:04:45.553-05:00Yeah, I think people are giving advice based on An...Yeah, I think people are giving advice based on Angband and the last version of Moria. It might be good to specify which version you're playing in the title, it might cut down on some irrelevant comments.Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-14069192229610832792015-02-13T18:54:45.383-05:002015-02-13T18:54:45.383-05:00There are oodles of Moria derivatives, all with th...There are oodles of Moria derivatives, all with their own quirks (I used to play Zangband but also played a DOS version of Moria with colours), but generally they all hew to the rule that you can take it slow and grind up stats and gear to the max before diving.<br /><br />Though a late version of Zangband had 'quests' which would put a number of tough monsters at specified levels, which you could not pass by without killing them all. Mini-bosses, basically.Gerry Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04078394659680797175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-79935347117579687932015-02-13T05:46:43.019-05:002015-02-13T05:46:43.019-05:00Speed shows with the text at the bottom of the scr...Speed shows with the text at the bottom of the screen: Slow - nothing - Fast - Very Fast. Higher isn't displayed, but you can get up to 3 permanent speed increases and one temporary (several temporary speed increases doesn't stack).<br /><br />Try casting "Haste" and see the "Fast" displayed on the bottom of the screen. (Or just load up on very heavy equipment or drink a potion of slowness (at a safe place) to see "Slowed" appear.)<br /><br />And as for diving deep, it shouldn't be needed to go below 2550, just go up and down between 2500 and 2550. They regnereate ;-)<br /><br />I won on version 4.8.7 the first time back in winter of 89/90, so I don't think there is a version difference. I'm surprised you haven't seen the Big D, though. I hope your version isn't bugged.<br /><br />I think the Evil Iggy was introduced a version or two later. Then you would always get either Evil Iggy or Balrog at any level below 50. Now you'll just have to find the Balrog by walking stairs and casting Detect Monster.<br /><br />BTW, there is no real point in finding Mr. Capital B unless you have at least one permanent speed item, temporary speed spell/staff, Potions of Invulnerability (not needed with 2 or 3 speed items, but still very useful), good weapon (preferably a HA) and fire resistance (preferably temporary in addition to permanent). He is rather nasty...Håkon Gautnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-77256404104355362102015-02-13T05:04:02.428-05:002015-02-13T05:04:02.428-05:00Also, a Moria/Angband game is usually played over ...Also, a Moria/Angband game is usually played over the course of many sessions often spanning months. I believe that when you get a sense of it, the idea of a 40-50 hour game will seem impossible. But there is such a sense of progression over the course of the hundreds of hours which most people invest in each character that the time doesn't seem wasted. Each session brings upgrades and/or enhances the stockpile of powerful potions/scrolls needed for the final battle.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-48983426654720982542015-02-13T03:35:53.947-05:002015-02-13T03:35:53.947-05:00On further reflection, two things:
1) R followed b...On further reflection, two things:<br />1) R followed by & will rest until a status change. So for example, it can rest until you are no longer blinded. Still not sure if this was implemented in Moria.<br />2) I'm becoming less certain of the depths I mentioned. I think Ring of Speed farming was optimal closer to 2800' so I don't want to lead you astray.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-76907532191214146992015-02-13T03:16:29.510-05:002015-02-13T03:16:29.510-05:00In response to a few things you mentioned in this ...In response to a few things you mentioned in this post:<br /><br />- Pure warriors can win Moria through reliance on scrolls and potions. In fact, the final battle will require an immense stockpile of healing even for caster classes.<br /><br />- Items are assigned to specific depths in the code. They become exponentially more likely as you get closer to those depths. If I remember correctly, farming is optimal between 1800-2400 feet. Beyond that the monsters get harder without many additional drops. But take those depths with a grain of salt because it's been a LONG time since I saw the code.<br /><br />- Resting by holding down the 's' key is eventually suicidal; inevitably a monster will come kill you before you can let go of the key at some point. One reader suggested R followed by * and I think that works in Moria. Another modifier that was added at some point is R followed by &, which will rest until EITHER your hit points or your mana is capped, but I don't recall whether that is in Moria or just Angband.<br /><br />Numbers can also precede things like tunneling to speed that up.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-23266194635865541762015-02-12T18:53:17.429-05:002015-02-12T18:53:17.429-05:00"There can't be many people who have legi..."There can't be many people who have legitimately won Moria."<br /><br />You can say that again. I played this game, back in the day when there were no spoilers available. I played extensively and got pretty good, as did one of my mage characters. High level, speed equipment, ready for anything! Except the Balrog. I found the beast and got killed in no time at all. I was left dumbstruck.<br /><br />My next succesfull character was a ranger. He got there prepared even better. After enormous battle that exhausted all his equipment he still lost, no questions asked.<br /><br />I haven't played Moria again for 20 years.Joonas Kekkonenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01557865693507503770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-13929197696262816222015-02-12T18:45:16.435-05:002015-02-12T18:45:16.435-05:00There's a funny legend about the quylthulg nam...There's a funny legend about the quylthulg name. Apparently, the dev of Moria came up with name while drunk coding, and it just stuck.JPublicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-72494762831014508012015-02-12T15:49:41.367-05:002015-02-12T15:49:41.367-05:00I've done it a couple of times just to see the...I've done it a couple of times just to see the winning screen, but only a couple of times, and only when a depiction of the endgame wasn't available online. <br /><br />I think at that point, you're no longer playing the game at all, and I wouldn't call winning any kind of achievement at all. It wouldn't even be fun to play anymore once you opened up that window. If save-scumming is nominally against my rules, editing save files is WAY against my rules.<br /><br />See this post for my general feelings:<br /><br />http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2013/06/cheats-and-liars.html<br />CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-66842326081515173402015-02-12T15:30:18.726-05:002015-02-12T15:30:18.726-05:00Hey CRPG Addict - Love your Blog so thanks - quick...Hey CRPG Addict - Love your Blog so thanks - quick question - what is your stance on plain old cheating?<br /><br />Seems you have relaxed your stance somewhat to allow exploits like save scumming etc. for certain games so why not just cheat? For example you comment about their cant be many people that have won Moria legitimately so in the interests of finishing the game (and not spending 40+ hours as you commented) would you consider just cheating like editing the save?<br /><br />Just curious because after many years of casually playing rogue on the odd occasion (and never getting that deep) reading your Blog posts on Moria have prompted me to fire it up again but this time I have just cheated by editing the save (still messing around but have given myself a whack of hit points and can edit quantities of food and scrolls etc.) and TBH I don't feel that bad about doing it LOL<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-69188070890178300182015-02-12T15:02:25.481-05:002015-02-12T15:02:25.481-05:00Is Valeria Starshine a tribute to the Order of the...Is Valeria Starshine a tribute to the Order of the Stick?<br /><br />http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.htmlLaerteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03189425293036224646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-63795467087570206942015-02-12T14:49:30.428-05:002015-02-12T14:49:30.428-05:00Is the speed something that exists behind the scen...Is the speed something that exists behind the scenes, or should I be able to see it somewhere? Nothing in my character sheet shows anything to do with speed.<br /><br />I wonder if there might be version differences here. Despite having explored down to level 62 (my playing is ahead of my blogging), I've yet to find a single item that has anything to do with speed--no boots, no rings, no potions--though there is a "Haste" spell in my spellbook, so clearly it has some effect.<br /><br />I also haven't encountered the "Ancient, Multi-Hued Dragon" that everyone talks about, nor have I encountered the balrog on any of the >50 levels. I suspect the DOS version I'm playing is different from what most people are talking about.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.com