tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post6834903055509210810..comments2024-03-19T06:03:57.317-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game 87: Wilderness Campaign (1979)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67821695510332799012022-09-09T20:48:21.300-04:002022-09-09T20:48:21.300-04:00I just recently got into the Campaign-Adventure se...I just recently got into the Campaign-Adventure series. Your blog about these have really helped me out with info and context. Wilderness Campaign still holds up. Here's my playthrough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8OJJ3y9a40diefzillahttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrPNbut8TT3niFkqNGustLQnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1816310959962322092020-02-12T15:19:23.378-05:002020-02-12T15:19:23.378-05:00Welcome, Jeff. Glad to have you with us. To clarif...Welcome, Jeff. Glad to have you with us. To clarify: I don't think Clardy had anything to do with <i>Warlords</i> as you played it. I think he was saying that he himself was obsessed with the game and spent a lot of time on analysis and custom modules. Yet some of his comments are a bit confusing and I admit I'm not 100% sure in my take. He's not credited on the <i>Warlords</i> games, if that means anything.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-3563817532863201422020-02-12T14:14:29.785-05:002020-02-12T14:14:29.785-05:00This is great, I'm glad I finally stumbled ove...This is great, I'm glad I finally stumbled over here from The Digital Antiquarian. So many excellent write-ups of games I'd all but forgotten about, bringing back memories and sparking new ideas. This one is extra cool for me though. I bought a cassette of Wilderness Campaign with my hard earned chore money in the early 80's, starved for something else to play on our new Apple ][+, needing a break from Zork (the first game I bought) and the breakout game that came with it. This style of campaign game was unlike anything I'd played before, being a die-hard D&D dungeon crawler up to this point, and it opened my horizons to strategy games in general.<br /><br />In the years since I'd occasionally poke around on Moby or Wikipedia looking for some information on this, one of my earliest favorite games, but as you mentioned it's all but invisible out there, until I unexpectedly saw it's name listed on the index here and was exited. I think your review and GIMLET score are spot on and brought back many fond memories. Thanks for this.<br /><br />I shouldn't be surprised that Robert Clardy is also responsible for one of my wife and I's addictions much later in life, Warlords. When we were traveling for trade shows with Berkeley Systems we'd play that game endlessly on a PowerBook 170. I still remember some of my favorite strategies for that fixed map on the first version. When we eventually upgraded to a windows laptop the 170 sat in the living room as nothing but a Warlords console for at least a year :)<br /><br />So thank you for giving this old game some of the recognition it deserves, and if Robert Clardy ever comes back through here, thanks for all the hours of entertainment you've given us!Jeff M. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745980164836238527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-81610334219452085912015-08-24T18:50:47.772-04:002015-08-24T18:50:47.772-04:00Has anyone here played the Milton Bradley board ga...Has anyone here played the Milton Bradley board game that came out a year or two after this called Dark Tower? Orson Welles did the t.v. advertisement! I haven't played Wilderness Campaign but it seems like Dark Tower was heavily influenced. Everything from the bazaar bartering and weight restrictions and beast of burden to the encounters and halved oppositional forces and site on map form of gameplay, it all seems very similar. The game is a classic in board games but I recall it had a Ip law suit problem at some point that contributed to its rarification. If you want to see how it works there is an android app called Droid Tower that simulates the game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504954547228432031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-72947231767727604942013-04-13T10:40:56.876-04:002013-04-13T10:40:56.876-04:00I knew I should have checked the MoCAGH first. I w...I knew I should have checked the MoCAGH first. I would say that the description sounds STARTLINGLY like <i>Wilderness Campaign</i>, even down to the keyboard commands. This is particularly relevant since I'm preparing a posting on <i>Odyssey: The Compleat Apventure</i> right now. It would be interesting to get Robert Clardy's take on it.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-41302915000746219522013-04-13T08:40:56.949-04:002013-04-13T08:40:56.949-04:00I know they weren't vaporware as Aardvark adve...I know they weren't vaporware as Aardvark advertised these games for years. I believe they were mail-order only, so that might account for the obscurity. I did find two links of interest relating to the game.<br /><br />On this page someone mentions finding a screenshot, but the link is dead; later someone says they found a copy for the VIC-20: http://tinyurl.com/ctkrkel<br /><br />Here's a picture of the manual and cassette and also mentions the similarity to Wilderness Campaign: http://mocagh.org/loadpage.php?getgame=quest-alt<br /><br />Anyway, this is a digression, just found it curious. I'm really enjoying delving into your blog here, and it's bringing back a lot of memories.KenHRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613789646908929989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-86097437988198032672013-04-13T00:31:30.489-04:002013-04-13T00:31:30.489-04:00Fascinating magazine page. MobyGames has no record...Fascinating magazine page. MobyGames has no record of any of the games on that page except <i>Dungeon of Death</i>. I Googled around for "Quest" using some of the other keywords in the description (Alesia, Moorlock), but the only results are advertisements like this one from game magazines of the era. These games were either vaporware or examples of what might be hundreds of early CRPGs that sold so poorly no one remembers them or thought to preserve the files.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-51999559682884952672013-04-12T13:26:54.986-04:002013-04-12T13:26:54.986-04:00Just found this blog last night and have been read...Just found this blog last night and have been reading entries at random here.<br /><br />This game sounds interesting, very similar to a game I really wanted based on its description in ads that used to run in Compute! magazine: Quest by Aardvark Games (see http://c64walkabout.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=115:aardvark-software-for-the-c64-and-vic-20-lost-or-found). I never did get it, and have never found a copy hanging out anywhere. This looks like a more developed game, though.<br /><br />Did this influence SSI's Sword of Aragon, I wonder...? I loved that one as a kid. KenHRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613789646908929989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-82363816199456844312013-02-26T12:27:42.322-05:002013-02-26T12:27:42.322-05:00Take a look at TheLegacy.de.
I did add quite some ...Take a look at TheLegacy.de.<br />I did add quite some early CRPG's there, some time ago, including Apventure to Atlantis.Thoriumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24790303789415846612013-02-13T15:04:51.448-05:002013-02-13T15:04:51.448-05:00I know I could have fun with rogue if I was doing ...I know I could have fun with rogue if I was doing my own chronological walkabout, not sure about beneath apple manor and the like. Telengard is one I missed, so I am not sure about it. I like to think I would still have fun with wizardry/bt but I think I would get bored of grinding.UbAhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447678457902055799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9431566607728964172013-02-13T12:26:48.083-05:002013-02-13T12:26:48.083-05:00I missed the Warlords games when I was a kid, but ...I missed the Warlords games when I was a kid, but when I recently tried the first one, I though it looked very good for its age, with nice and crisp graphics. But the huge number of individual units got boring real soon for me. It actually reminded me of the old Empire game.<br />Playing chronologically I'll give the Warlords series another try maybe next year when I reach Warlords 2 Deluxe.<br /><br />As for the Wilderness Campaign, it looks like the oldest game I could see myself playing. Not being a great fan of Adventure games and Rogue-likes, I think WC would have been a natural start for me if I were to start my own chronological project from scratch.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-59377962106522310332013-02-13T10:20:59.594-05:002013-02-13T10:20:59.594-05:00I had great fun with friends playing Warlords I ba...I had great fun with friends playing Warlords I back in high school, but it is a style that has not held up well when I revisited it. My guess is HOMM and MOM spoiled it for me by giving the added tactical screen and city options so I expect to be able to do more than you are able to with the engine. I never tried the Warlords II deluxe but I have tried some of the remakes like LordsAWar!.<br /><br />I do agree that I miss turn based strategy games due to the pacing allowing for careful plotting, planning, and the joy of a 20 turn long plan coming together. My problem with the real time options tend to be that those are really a who clicks faster game, and they have an entirely different feel, more frantic than thoughtful. <br /><br />What my friends and I would do is play hot seat games while listening to music, drinking, and general hanging out. This way no one was bored while waiting for their turn as we had other entertainment going on. Now that we are grown with careers, wives and children such things are no longer as possible.<br /><br />In short, here is to those simpler younger days, and may we all find a way to retire early to recapture that freedom.UbAhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447678457902055799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29147000230177552172013-02-12T20:28:14.401-05:002013-02-12T20:28:14.401-05:00Robert, I appreciate the depth of your analysis he...Robert, I appreciate the depth of your analysis here. There is doubtless much crossover between strategy games and CRPGs. What makes <i>Wilderness Campaign</i> incontestably a CRPG (in my opinion) is the character development and inventory. Even though both are done at the party level instead of the individual level, they both accomplish the CRPG purpose of making your party stronger.<br /><br />I've never played <i>Warlords II</i>, and your posting really makes me want to try it. I have played I and III. III featured persistent heroes that leveled up and could obtain useful weapons and powers, so I felt that it was CRPG "enough" to include on my list--and I loved the game so much I didn't want to pass up a chance to play it again when I got to the era. (I'm curious what it added that you didn't like.) WLI didn't have these things, so I think it's less defensibly even a hybrid CRPG. I also remember that the map in that game was unvarying and thus a little boring after a few sessions.<br /><br />Anyway, as I said, your posting makes me want to try II, so I'm going to add it to my list to check out in 1993.<br /><br />Before you go, could you verify what I said above about the "evil spell"? I'm guessing you included it to introduce some element of randomness so that a party couldn't become too overpowered and cocky.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73489295487381213022013-02-12T12:59:51.440-05:002013-02-12T12:59:51.440-05:00But, turn-based strategy does not make CRPG. For t...But, turn-based strategy does not make CRPG. For that, we had to wait for Warlords II Deluxe. That edition included a bunch of editors that allowed the "player" to make new maps (big woop), new army sets (that's better), add new art (way harder to do now days), change every place and person name in the game (model the game after favorite stories), create new items with different abilities and bonuses, and finally, change the rules. Now, that last one was not really in the editors they provided, but rather on the fact that a Warlords game ended when all other human players were dead. Now that particular play goal has never been my fave as all but one has to lose and if they lose early enough, the game becomes a real drag to live through while the others continue to have fun. The best games for me are the ones where all play, all have fun, and nobody knows the winner until it is over and you count points up. So, the win conditions have to be easy to measure, but hard to see in advance. Warlords provided that possiblity with various dialogs that showed you and you only just how many kills you had of each other force in the game. So, with the first simple rule change of "no attacking other human forces", the game could become many other things. The simplest and longest lasting was the NPC extermination with twists. 3 human players permitted 5 NPC forces. Our games would end when all NPCs were gone. Then, we could tally up which of us killed the most heroes and most troops of each enemy type and award points based on that. We also tried points based on gold accumulated, quests completed, total forces amassed, or whatever. Another variant was having final city count provide negative points, so you had to build cities early on, get forces from them, then lose them during the end game, keeping just enough to keep forces alive to finish the final NPC extermination. That was tricky enough to add another year of game play.<br /><br />Over a period of 10 years, I built dozens of scenarios, army sets, game rule variations, characters, and storylines using this elegant game engine. Play by email, great game editors, flexible win conditions - this was not just a good game, it was the best game a game designer could want to play with. And, I do believe it met the definition of CRPG as well. I could be wrong....Robert Clardynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-80013316370323805302013-02-12T12:43:48.640-05:002013-02-12T12:43:48.640-05:00At its core, Warlords was a turn-based strategy ga...At its core, Warlords was a turn-based strategy game. Not many of those now days. Real time strategy games are exciting and immersive and a ton of fun. But, turn based games can permit the thoughtful analysis of possibilties, optimization of strategy, and mobilization of resources that might not be needed until some time in the future. To win in chess, you have to not only position your forces for strategic advantage, you have to be able to analyze and overcome all the possible moves of your opponent, looking turns ahead for what they might do and how you would conter it.<br /><br />Warlords did that, but in Warlords, you had many more pieces, multiple armies, possibly 7 opponents, and it was possible to devise strategies that would take 20 turns or more to complete and still pull them off. But, to do that, you had to sit and think a bit. Stare at the board. Guess what your opponents were up to. Count the time it would take to muster your forces, move them, avoid defeat while launching an attack, and mix and match the elements of your armies so that each included all of the bunuses needed to accomplish its intended mission. Some were to take cities. Some were to kill troops. And, some stacks were for hunting heroes. Each stack needed the right mix of attributes to accomplish that mission and figuring them out took time. That time was an irritant to co-players that had to sit and wait on you to get on with it. <br /><br />Which brings up the first key feature that made Warlords work so well. It included play by email. I could take an hour to do my turn and nobody bugged me about hurrying up. I played. I emailed it. I went and did other things. Later in the day, if a game was back, I got another turn. I spent months playing email games with distant friends, never sitting at the computer at the same time, but thoroughly enjoying the long distance contest, played at my own preferred pace.<br /><br />Robert Clardynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24026310097120149242013-02-12T12:35:15.064-05:002013-02-12T12:35:15.064-05:00There is a preumption that Warlords was either a w...There is a preumption that Warlords was either a war game or a strategy game, and Warlords I was certainly both of those. Warlords II added more scenarios and depth of play. Warlords III added a bunch of extraneous stuff that complicated what had been a clean and elegant system into something I did not like as much.<br /><br />It was Warlords II Deluxe, though, that was the best game ever written. At least for me. It included several nearly unique elements that I have never seen together in any other game. Of course, the first question is about whether or not it can be discussed in a CRPG forum. Oops. My bad....<br /><br />I checked with Wiki about the proper definition of CRPG and got this line to support my violation here: "games involve developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion." The one bit of this that my own CRPG efforts always violated was the definition of character development. Rather than single characters, I always went for groups. To beat the game I write, you have to assemble an ideal group that includes all of the latent skill possibilities needed to solve the quest. Then, you needed to equip and train your group to develop the skills and resources needed. Really, that's CRPG, isn't it?<br /><br />All assume you agree or at least will put up with my thesis here and get back to why Warlords did it better than any other game I have seen....Robert Clardynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-63110512735544140472013-02-12T12:26:48.862-05:002013-02-12T12:26:48.862-05:00Thanks for the invite, Josh. I do enjoy revisting ...Thanks for the invite, Josh. I do enjoy revisting these early games where game play was all you had to work on because art, sound, music, and embedded movies just were not possible. It did not mean that they were any better than games with higher production values, just that the game play stood out because that was all there was.<br /><br />Wilderness Campaign was an early example of what I always tried to do with my own game design efforts - break genres. The earliest games that I liked the best were adventures, war games, strategy games, and role-playing games. I always wanted to merge all of those into elements into every game I worked on. With the limits of memory, resolution, sound, and controls, the game playing experience never lived up to my hopes, but it was a blast to try. Especially since I still found game design and development to be the most entertaining part of gaming. The early Apple was so easy to develop on. You write a few lines of code and run it and the game has changed. No need to spend months developing the proper 3-D animations and maps to render the vision and see if it would come to life. An afternoon of coding and the game had changed. That was the best gaming experience of my life.<br /><br />Which, leads me to a digression regarding the best game I never wrote. There were many great games I did not write, but only one that I spent months and years working with, developing scenarios, maps, characters, story-lines, plots, rule-systems, and experimenting with playability elements over and over again, all without ever publishing any of it. Did someone mention Warlords?Robert Clardynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-51550795999967053362013-02-12T01:00:20.770-05:002013-02-12T01:00:20.770-05:00Although there was one very good map in the origin...Although there was one very good map in the original HoMM 3 that had a Greek Mythology theme.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-4465290068997710182013-02-11T22:46:12.310-05:002013-02-11T22:46:12.310-05:00For HoMM 2 and 3 the best individual scenarios are...For HoMM 2 and 3 the best individual scenarios are use made ones. Some of them feel more like CRPGs than Strategy.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19397306448411714182013-02-11T20:37:06.558-05:002013-02-11T20:37:06.558-05:00I was completely addicted to HoMM 2 and 3 when the...I was completely addicted to HoMM 2 and 3 when they came out - frequently played until 4 a.m. When you play them, definitely choose one of the Campaigns rather than the individual scenarios. They are generally well balanced, and the modest amount of story text really adds to the game IMO.<br /><br />I'm currently working with Todd Hendrix, one of the programmers on HoMM and some of the M&M games. According to Todd, HoMM1 is a "sort of sequel" to King's Bounty. KB is moderately fun, but has bad game balance compared to HoMM 1.Corey Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16772474266362396768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-61391096670842378722013-02-11T19:38:33.171-05:002013-02-11T19:38:33.171-05:00That's another one that MobyGames doesn't ...That's another one that MobyGames doesn't have. There really isn't a single comprehensive source out there, is there?CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-87750949813090368662013-02-11T18:54:49.323-05:002013-02-11T18:54:49.323-05:00I remember playing Wilderness Campaign a bit on my...I remember playing Wilderness Campaign a bit on my Apple II.<br /><br />I played (and almost finished) an RPG/adventure that Robert Clardy published in 1982 for the Apple II - Apventure to Atlantis (yes that is the correct spelling). This game mixes some adventure game type screens and graphics with quite a few RPG elements:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvflkPPzvA<br /><br />You move from island to island during the game, and the last island is Atlantis. I remember getting stuck almost at the end of the game on Atlantis. I'm not sure if it was due to a bug in the store bought version of the game I had or whether I just couldn't figure out a puzzle.MalcolmMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03180337520725862377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-74967543629750694382013-02-11T18:02:01.726-05:002013-02-11T18:02:01.726-05:00If it makes you feel better, it didn't occur t...If it makes you feel better, it didn't occur to me to think of Warlords until mentioned. I always played Battlecry more. I enjoyed Disciples and Heroes for my TBS games of this sort.Tanuveinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12397078211341079561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-70102901737685798822013-02-11T18:01:04.540-05:002013-02-11T18:01:04.540-05:00If my schedule permits, I'd definitely be will...If my schedule permits, I'd definitely be willing to throw down as well. I'm not terribly good at multiplayer, but its more about having fun for me.Tanuveinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12397078211341079561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-41574269185645090802013-02-11T17:39:59.502-05:002013-02-11T17:39:59.502-05:00Put me down for a game with you and Canageek if yo...Put me down for a game with you and Canageek if you want to see the multiplayer in action. Fair warning though big games on big maps can take a long time.UbAhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13447678457902055799noreply@blogger.com