tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post6818630397576719577..comments2024-03-29T02:34:55.592-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game 290: Talisman (1988)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7730081612474476162023-10-26T13:23:15.512-04:002023-10-26T13:23:15.512-04:00Way late, but for anyone who just read Yoshida'...Way late, but for anyone who just read Yoshida's comment, Wizardry also used the WAD keys for forward, left and right. Probably one of the first games that led to the WASD/WAXD cluster.Ken Brubakerhttps://kejabrsoftware.wixsite.com/kejabr-softwarenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29448283647751228312019-12-22T21:00:39.606-05:002019-12-22T21:00:39.606-05:00I wonder what emacs users of the time thought of t...I wonder what emacs users of the time thought of those keys, and what they used instead?Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-50280629607392231672018-07-23T08:49:18.224-04:002018-07-23T08:49:18.224-04:00The effect of the multi-screen setup is interestin...The effect of the multi-screen setup is interesting. In Unix rogue, each dungeon level consists of a rigid 3-by-3 "tic-tac-toe" grid, where each cell contains either a room, a connection between neighboring cells or a dead end. Since you can see the entire level, it's immediately obvious which cell you are in when you enter a level.<br /><br />I assume this game uses the same technique to build dungeon levels, as it seems to be a very faithful port. But if you can only see the current room, you have to do a lot more work to figure out where you are in the level. It seems like it ought to make the game a bit more interesting.<br /><br />Regarding food, Unix rogue guarantees you a food drop at least once every 3 levels. So if you keep running out of food, it's a hint that you should descend a bit more aggressively. Never played this version of course, so I'm not sure if it sticks to this rule.<br /><br />As a little curiosity, I guess you might have never seen the manual for Unix Rogue, and there probably won't be a future post where it might be relevant: https://docs.freebsd.org/44doc/usd/30.rogue/paper.pdf<br /><br />(And like everybody else, I'm baffled that you managed to play all classic rogue-likes without ever encountering the vi-keys...)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Peternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-6360948560070812132018-06-16T21:37:27.020-04:002018-06-16T21:37:27.020-04:00The original '82 version of Wizardry had the m...The original '82 version of Wizardry had the most nonsensical control scheme ever. You pressed F to go forward, L to turn left, and R to turn right. Now look at where these are on your keyboard... yeah.<br /><br />The PC-88/98 versions (from '85) used W, A, and D, respectively, which makes much more sense. Not quite WASD, since S showed or hid the status window.Yoshidanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58765377592805584502018-06-07T00:26:27.352-04:002018-06-07T00:26:27.352-04:00Right. The point is that the keys originated in a ...Right. The point is that the keys originated in a text editor, where WPM are actually important. They got translated to games because the keyboards the game was originally on didn't have arrows and the arrows weren't eight-directional anyway. vi-keys are very ergonomic if you're used to them, even for gaming -- I find games that try to set up a 3x3 grid on the keyboard more difficult to use, because I'm used to another input scheme. Just like WASD might be weird for someone used to an old game that used WAXD or the like.stepped pyramidsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-38887382616523076352018-06-06T22:47:35.934-04:002018-06-06T22:47:35.934-04:00Well... why not write about the game that *didn...Well... why not write about the game that *didn't* force Talisman to change its name? Eh? Eh?Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-55891565659312125822018-06-05T04:05:00.262-04:002018-06-05T04:05:00.262-04:00Back in the days, one can easily identify a fellow...Back in the days, one can easily identify a fellow Rogue player on the street, when we need to get out of the house, just by looking at our clawed misshapen and arthritic hands.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-72425861516714781672018-06-02T01:47:04.780-04:002018-06-02T01:47:04.780-04:00Originally on Unix systems there were a couple way...Originally on Unix systems there were a couple ways to edit files ed and then later ex. Ex had some visual editing options, but was really built to editing things in a stream. <br /><br />One of the first visual text editors was called "vi" (visual editor) written by Bill Joy. It could also call the ex editor functions. The convention for doing things used modes, one mode for inputing text, the other for doing things like movement or substitution or all kinds of things that are now usually done with a mouse (or sometimes not done). Well unix systems often had different keyboards and ex already had some conventions, so to guarantee ability to move and edit and replace and so on, and to be able to use ex commands pretty much the conventional keys were used. And there was a certain thought to what you would do commonly and where those keys were on the keyboard- so home row. <br /><br />I can't say it is wholly logical, but it has been a convention since... um I'm going guess 76,77 or 1978. Not sure exactly when it was released, but somewhere in there.<br /><br />So when people made games on Unix after 78 or so, the convention for moving around in a visual but character environment was the vi keys (as you published them). Games adopting that helped me use vi much later as I'd played enough Rogue on Unix systems that moving around in vi was second nature. Kind of like mine sweeper helped people learn to use the mouse (and double click) in early windows era.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-37131768864433627442018-06-01T20:47:11.176-04:002018-06-01T20:47:11.176-04:00Fie on such readers!Fie on such readers!CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19987355839506381642018-06-01T20:46:21.415-04:002018-06-01T20:46:21.415-04:00I guess I don't understand why anyone would &q...I guess I don't understand why anyone would "want all the movement keys to be on the home row." A roguelike isn't meant to be played at 80WPM. I can't believe most players wouldn't prefer a more natural arrangement of keys to a more easily-accessible arrangement of keys. Then again, Unix people are another species entirely.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-83612370017845747812018-06-01T18:28:47.906-04:002018-06-01T18:28:47.906-04:00In vi it's just hjkl, which makes sense based ...In vi it's just hjkl, which makes sense based on the constraint that you want all the movement keys to be on the home row. yubn is a reasonable expansion of that into diagonals. It makes sense if you're used to it, just like inverted Y-axis on joysticks. There isn't any square arrangement of keys on the keyboard outside the tenkey, so they're all kind of wonky from a purely spatial perspective.stepped pyramidsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-37513490719831657512018-06-01T17:39:00.269-04:002018-06-01T17:39:00.269-04:00HeroQuest WASN'T really a CRPG. I played it be...<i>HeroQuest</i> WASN'T really a CRPG. I played it because I wanted to write about the game that forced <i>Hero's Quest</i> to change its name.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-23454107310874181182018-06-01T17:36:03.725-04:002018-06-01T17:36:03.725-04:00I think the fact that I finished the game shows th...I think the fact that I finished the game shows that I never felt the particular cluster was "impossible."<br /><br />I made an edit above to reflect that clearly Mr. Newman didn't invent this particular key cluster. I otherwise still don't understand why it would have originally been chosen or why it ever made sense on any keyboard.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19265447632695947972018-06-01T13:28:57.288-04:002018-06-01T13:28:57.288-04:00Apparently vi keys were an option in the original ...Apparently vi keys were an option in the original Rogue's PC and PCjr versions but only forced in the PCjr version due to the lack of arrow keys, as per the manual found here: http://www.roguelikedevelopment.org/archive/files/misc/EpyxRogueDOSManual/manual.htm<br /><br />They're still quite unusual to see in modern things, though, because the population of vi users is much, much smaller than the population of gamers.Imbannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-26168183385148539622018-06-01T13:02:40.218-04:002018-06-01T13:02:40.218-04:00I play several roguelikes using the VI keys when I...I play several roguelikes using the VI keys when I play on my laptop, which doesn't have a numpad. It takes some getting used to but is certainly not impossible.Charleshttp://adventurematerials.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-89258017242062922742018-06-01T00:04:25.578-04:002018-06-01T00:04:25.578-04:00Speaking of RPGs with the same name, I seem to rec...Speaking of RPGs with the same name, I seem to recall a CGA first-person dungeon crawler for DOS by the name of "Talisman" that I played back in the mid-90's. I didn't see on your list, and I imagine that you'd rather not unearth too many "new" RPGs from years you've finished already... but I'm curious as to whether anyone else knows what I'm talking about. I couldn't turn up anything about it online, given how generic the name is...<br /><br />If it's any consolation, though, I don't remember it being particularly difficult.Super Boy Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-45101190884734539342018-05-31T17:06:02.571-04:002018-05-31T17:06:02.571-04:00It's hard to see you discussing a Rogue port w...It's hard to see you discussing a Rogue port without a faint memory triggering that your beating Rogue was the inception of this blog. Might be worth mentioning for the benefit of readers who haven't digested the Compleat Works of Chester.Rowan Lipkovitshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08691096685515251681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68988460305308382332018-05-31T15:25:15.752-04:002018-05-31T15:25:15.752-04:00A lot of modern roguelikes still use vi keys, incl...A lot of modern roguelikes still use vi keys, including NetHack. The advantage is that you don't have to move your fingers from the home row to move in the cardinal directions. It's second nature once you've gotten used to them, to the point that I've forgotten which letters move in what direction. I had to think for a while before I realized that the scheme was just vi keys.<br /><br />I'm assuming Chet used a tenkey for previous roguelikes, then. You can't really use arrow keys for roguelikes because of the lack of diagonals.stepped pyramidsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-2698362270316994572018-05-31T14:19:36.977-04:002018-05-31T14:19:36.977-04:00The Inner Region is certainly scripted events. As...The Inner Region is certainly scripted events. As is the Tavern, City, Village, Sentinel...etc. <br /><br />If HeroQuest is a CRPG then Talisman certainly is. In fact, it has more credibility in several categories. Even though it isn't what you would call a traditional CRPG by any means. It would be closer to King's Bounty than anything else, with its short length and replayability due to variable starting conditions. Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-69644998315578953912018-05-31T14:13:03.935-04:002018-05-31T14:13:03.935-04:00Likely named after Talisman (1983), but I don'...<a href="https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/714/talisman" rel="nofollow">Likely named after Talisman (1983)</a>, but I don't see any obvious callbacks to Talisman. No Games Workshop properties, no giant skulls, no Crags, no Crown of Command. Not even a Wizard of Yendor. The only thing it has in common is being a D&D type game that requires no DM. <br /><br />In fact, I would question whether this was a re-implementation or a port. Xorn and such seem to indicate that this was a port with "Amulet of Yendor" filed off and "Talisman of the Ancients" written in in crayon. <br /><br />Yeah, there was a version of Talisman for computer. I am distressed to note that it is quite close to the definition of CRPG, having inventories and combats based on attributes. Hell, if you count gaining strength and craft as character leveling and development, which it pretty much is, then computer Talisman *is* a CRPG. It has a main quest, side quests, it supports single player, there are no scripted events but all is driven by the Adventure Deck...if you ignore the fact that it's a port of a boardgame you might think it fits the definition of a CRPG. In fact by these terms Computer Talisman is closer to a roguelike than anything else. <br /><br />I'm not saying I think Talisman is a "six characters hit the dungeon" kind of CRPG...but if we're applying the strict standards of this blog...honestly I think it has to go on the list. Its saving grace being it won't take more than an hour or two to play through. Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35485237455689370042018-05-31T13:55:57.394-04:002018-05-31T13:55:57.394-04:00Yeah, vi keys for sure. In fact, using vi keys is...Yeah, vi keys for sure. In fact, using vi keys is more authentic for a Rogue clone than using the arrow keys. Arrow keys vary between systems but Y K U H L B J N are the same everywhere. The more you know!Harlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-43611211535545367942018-05-31T13:46:34.815-04:002018-05-31T13:46:34.815-04:00I had wondered if this bore any relation to the Ga...I had wondered if this bore any relation to the Games Workshop board game Talisman, but I suppose a talisman is a common enough fantasy tchotchke to write a game around.<br /><br />While I knew about the fairly recent (2012/13) video game adaptation of Talisman, I wasn't aware that there had been also been an earlier one released for the ZX Spectrum in 1985: http://www.crashonline.org.uk/16/talisman.htm<br /><br />(Though I suspect it'll be fairly borderline as per your definition of a CRPG, like HeroQuest.)Mentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12666135395522594894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-32882171830845892002018-05-31T13:19:30.636-04:002018-05-31T13:19:30.636-04:00Oh, and there was a numeric keypad available for t...Oh, and there was a numeric keypad available for the Atari 8-bits (CX-85) but I don't think very many games supported it at all.<br /><br />I never had one so I don't even know if it returns special key codes or just mimics the regular keyboard's codes.<br />Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04392929433544603494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-52516035244035092722018-05-31T13:16:29.722-04:002018-05-31T13:16:29.722-04:00The Atari 800 (and all Atari 8-bits) had cursor ke...The Atari 800 (and all Atari 8-bits) had cursor keys. You had to use the CONTROL-{-,=,+,*} to use them, although most programmers just scanned for the -,=,+, and * keys so one didn't have to hold down CONTROL.<br /><br />The regular 8-bit text screen (graphics mode 0 in BASIC) had a 40 x 24 character screen. It looks like this fellow used a combination of that (upper and lower text) along with a larger text mode (mode 1 which is 20x24) for the game. Probably because it allowed more colors or was just easier to see. So, yeah, that's probably why dungeons are multiple screens.<br /><br />I honestly don't remember ever seeing this one back in the day.<br />Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04392929433544603494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-11982759557669750632018-05-31T12:24:32.437-04:002018-05-31T12:24:32.437-04:00I'm surprised you haven't seen that moveme...I'm surprised you haven't seen that movement keyboard cluster before -- it's the standard "vi keys" commonplace in Unix systems. It looks like it was(/is?) fairly common in roguelikes derived closely from the ur-Rogue (Angband, etc.).David D.noreply@blogger.com