tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post5571927614999804829..comments2024-03-18T21:14:09.798-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Linearity in CRPGsCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-18166106225739122642021-03-14T22:16:09.287-04:002021-03-14T22:16:09.287-04:00I understand the point about level scaling, and I ...I understand the point about level scaling, and I don't disagree with it, and surely the way this issue is approached in games can always be improved. I would point out though, that if certain areas are ones that in principle you CAN go to, but in practical terms are just not survivable, then you have functionally imposed a kind of linearity on the game, to a greater or lesser degree defeating the purpose of an open world. TES didn't address this perfectly, but III-V remain some of my favorite games of all time. I'm probably sounding like my position is more inflexible than I intend, I guess I'm trying to say that there's a spectrum here where it's hard to find the sweet spot.merlin4012https://www.blogger.com/profile/16300594533601663641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-58973352107104483022021-03-14T21:55:17.556-04:002021-03-14T21:55:17.556-04:00I'm a big KOTOR fan, too. Obviously there is t...I'm a big KOTOR fan, too. Obviously there is the choice of what order to visit the planets, and some limited choice on each planet in the order of quests, but that's about it. Certainly not open world games. I think the roleplaying in the two games really stands out, though, more so in 2. The big choice is between light side and dark side, obviously, but in 1 going dark side mostly consists of being a raging jerk all the time for no particular reason. I remember one review describing this as playing the role of Darth Obnoxio. I have played through both games multiple times on the light side, but have completed each of them on the dark side only once. DS in 1 was fun, but the DS experience in 2 was much better. I felt it was much more possible to roleplay a point of view with that character. He did "terrible" things, but they were quite rational from his ideological perspective. By the end of the game, I felt I understood and to a surprising degree sympathized with my character. I had huge pangs of conscience in the beginning of that playthrough, but by the end I felt I was just doing what I believed in. Maybe the game made me evil. I don't think so, but it did give me a chance to see through the eyes of someone with a totally different values system than mine, a very engaging experience.merlin4012https://www.blogger.com/profile/16300594533601663641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-27413499574445684582021-01-28T20:47:17.397-05:002021-01-28T20:47:17.397-05:00This blogpost has made me reflect back on what my ...This blogpost has made me reflect back on what my primary issue with the old Final Fantasy 1 problem was. A huge open world with dozens of towns and locations you can visit but a single rube goldberg machine like plotline, where one needs to visit some locations in a specific order to find an item to activate another specific location's event, etc etc. Which would be fine if the game had the decency to give you even mild hints about where the next item is located. This is why most players that play the game inevitably tend to say something along the lines of "Where do I go? What do I do?!"<br /><br />Truly the worst of both worlds, in terms of what you said about linearity and open world gamesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-77476551616385713972017-08-16T14:48:34.541-04:002017-08-16T14:48:34.541-04:00There is also yet another type of GM - the ones th...There is also yet another type of GM - the ones that manage to turn whatever the party does into the rails for the overarching plot.<br /><br />If, for example, your party insists on going out and hunting orcs instead of participating the political intrigue of a succession crisis, have them eventually find out that the orcs were stirred up by one of the parties seeking the throne to weaken and destabilize a rival. <br /><br />This gives players plenty of agency for the players, while allowing the DM to guide them back to the main plot so subtly they barely notice - especially if you don't always tie in their butterfly quests to what is going on.<br /><br />This is my preferred style, but it takes a lot of work, because to do it right you need to have a lot of schemes worked out in advance that you can quickly grab and improvise into what you need. Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-83580770059652755522017-08-16T14:11:21.935-04:002017-08-16T14:11:21.935-04:00I'd say it is a little mixed. There are DMs wh...I'd say it is a little mixed. There are DMs who are very proud of going in and doing everything in reaction to what the players do and making it look planned: I game with someone similar to that now.<br /><br />Then there are DMs like myself who rely on pre-written adventures, but regularly wind up improvising as the players go off the rails.<br /><br />Then there are convention type games, and organized play, where you have tight constraints on what you do, so that every group has a comparable adventure. (I've done a lot of these in the RPGA. They sound lame, but some conventions the best part is meeting at the bar afterwards and everyone comparing how they got past a certain trap over beer and burgers. <br /><br />Ok, I need to find out if there are local gaming conventions now that my Dad moved within day trip distance so we can start going together)Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-66490969099224444372017-08-16T03:30:30.103-04:002017-08-16T03:30:30.103-04:00That's a good point, Buck. Clearly, in tableto...That's a good point, Buck. Clearly, in tabletop RPGs, the game master has a path in mind, and sometimes the greatest tension (or greatest fun, depending on how you look at it) comes from players bent on subverting those intentions.<br /><br />You got what I meant, though. A human game master could theoretically (if not practically) do everything while a computer will always be bound to the limits of its program.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-10685447554336699772017-08-15T16:02:13.739-04:002017-08-15T16:02:13.739-04:00I've subscribed to, I think, every page so I d...I've subscribed to, I think, every page so I don't miss any old comments. :DCanageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-82050412930552384252017-08-14T20:57:48.431-04:002017-08-14T20:57:48.431-04:00We have eyes on the entire blog...
That's tru...We have eyes on the entire blog...<br /><br />That's true, depending the GM, a story can be setup and promptly ignored by the players until the GM forces the players down the only remaining path. Content isn't infinite, although a lot more flexible with starting points in a tabletop environment.Zenic Reveriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16441583549326102945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19174304523356978642017-08-14T18:11:01.611-04:002017-08-14T18:11:01.611-04:00There is no concept of 'necroing' a thread...There is no concept of 'necroing' a thread here. Welcome :)Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-78927123113524655452017-08-14T14:23:29.130-04:002017-08-14T14:23:29.130-04:00This is quite old, and I'm not sure what the e...This is quite old, and I'm not sure what the etiquette here is for replying to very old posts. But I thought it worth mentioning that tabletop RPGs are usually not completely nonlinear, but fall somewhere in the middle. In the end they have the same limitations as computer games - creating elaborate and interesting content (scenes, characters, plot elements, twists...) takes a lot of time for the GM. Content created "on the fly" by the GM is bound to be a lot more generic. So while in theory the characters could explore freely in tabletop (if the GM lets them), you're usually going to follow the hooks the GM has set, unless agreed otherwise.<br /><br />Tabletop is a bit more flexible, of couse, as a GM can change things up on the fly, even giving the players the impression of freedom while slowly leading them back towards the story. It takes considerable skill to be able to do that well, though.Bucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-43274922014725388782017-08-14T01:08:32.778-04:002017-08-14T01:08:32.778-04:00Procedurally generated content has limitations tho...Procedurally generated content has limitations though. I don't want a game populated entirely by Fallout 4s 'radiant' quests.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9618733996557430112017-08-13T11:28:18.608-04:002017-08-13T11:28:18.608-04:00One word: Randomization! I would settle for a mini...One word: Randomization! I would settle for a minimal backstory if I get a large RANDOM world map with RANDOM dungeons, RANDOM quests, RANDOM monsters and RANDOM treasures. I find the map exploration the most exciting part of any game, and with a procedurally generated random map replayability becomes practically infinite...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-85312832290110076112016-05-13T15:30:42.156-04:002016-05-13T15:30:42.156-04:00Lands of Lore I (haven't played the others). P...Lands of Lore I (haven't played the others). Provides an illusion of forests, swamps and towns, but actually leads you along a very linear path throughout the whole game. No wonder they didn't bother to include a map of the game world. After having come from Realms of Arkania and the Xeen games with their extreme freedom, I was somewhat disappointed.The Architecthttp://ancient-architects.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-70360481417653238442015-04-18T22:28:45.723-04:002015-04-18T22:28:45.723-04:00In this comment:
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2...In this comment:<br /><br />http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2010/07/linearity-in-crpgs.html?showComment=1326515132104#c8331475985920803669<br /><br />I broke it down a little more. You're right that there are different kinds of linearity and different ways that linearity manifests. It's worthy of a more detailed analysis.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-75886490204259864462015-04-15T23:32:00.580-04:002015-04-15T23:32:00.580-04:00I've previously stated in a comment somewhere ...I've previously stated in a comment somewhere long ago that Linearity happens in CRPGs because of a strong & specific storyline that the developers have in mind. This is usual in the case for JRPGs which have a singular ending with a lot of plot twists and/or contrived storytelling leading up to that (with Chrono Trigger as a brilliant averted trope that boasts 10 different freaking endings with an open world that exists in 4 different timelines).<br /><br />That said, I wonder how Linearity is considered here. What if there was no way to backtrack but there is a huge decision tree to choose from? Case in point: VTM Bloodlines by Troika.<br /><br />The game is broken down in chapters and you may go back to the areas you have visited before but the game is linear in the sense that you cannot go to other unexplored areas in the game before the end of the current chapter.<br /><br />Yet, it is very diverse with an extremely high level of replayability due to the large amount of decisions and skill-sets of your chosen Clan. I doubt anyone could play through one game (with the final fan-patch, of course) and stop themselves from immediately starting a new one.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68413383420352471062015-04-15T22:49:06.565-04:002015-04-15T22:49:06.565-04:00That's the danger of destroying game balance f...That's the danger of destroying game balance from having an immense open-world environment. If you stop feeling challenged early on in the game (5 hours of gameplay?) and that game boasts 10 times longer than that, I doubt you'd probably stop caring about character advancement or bother about side-quests; thus cancelling that extra hours of contents that the developers created.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-83944551831808722032015-04-15T14:02:54.374-04:002015-04-15T14:02:54.374-04:00Yes, I agree. I've talked about that elsewhere...Yes, I agree. I've talked about that elsewhere. I think <i>Skyrim</i> does a slightly better job, but overall this is something that they should work on. There should be a few areas that are always difficult, a few that are always a breeze, and in between maybe scale the MAXIMUM enemy level, but not every enemy level.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-15898527109162487072015-04-13T14:03:35.302-04:002015-04-13T14:03:35.302-04:00I'm a big fan of the TES games but IMO the lev...I'm a big fan of the TES games but IMO the level scaling seriously distracts from any sense of non-linearity. It's a false freedom. <br /><br />Sure, you don't have a 'level 5 dungeon' in Oblivion like you do in other games. But that's simply because if you're level 5, then the entire world is level 5. The only difference is your surroundings.<br /><br />It leads to some ridiculous situations from a RP perspective, too. Why is this guy who is wearing Ebony armor and carrying some of the most advanced magical weapons in the world choosing to stand next to a dirt road in the middle of the rain, mugging passer-by? He's wearing equipment that is worth more than his victims would earn in 20 years!<br /><br />If Bethesda would drop the level scaling nothing would compare to the TES series. They're still really, really good... I don't think I've ever enjoyed a game more than I enjoyed the original Arena back in 1994, but the scaling is a turn off.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-86012405313019133142015-02-23T11:54:34.174-05:002015-02-23T11:54:34.174-05:00Read his post again?Read his post again?Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-64286474625458372392015-02-23T11:42:22.254-05:002015-02-23T11:42:22.254-05:00What the fuck is an ERPG?What the fuck is an ERPG?BrazilRulesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-50690024882908763242013-10-06T15:05:14.030-04:002013-10-06T15:05:14.030-04:00Good post, it made me think. I "lost track&qu...Good post, it made me think. I "lost track" of the main quest in Skyrim. I usually safe the main quest for the end and do all side quests before that. Only in Skyrim, I sort of lost the motivation to play before I had done all the major side quests. It will require some effort to return to it and finish it but I want to do it.<br />I enjoyed Fallout 2 more than Fallout...because it was bigger and had more side quests. Can the degree of non-linearity be expressed by the ratio of side-quests to main-quests? In some way yes, but in other ways no. I guess that it not only depends on what you can do, but also how you can do it. Or am I confusing replayability with non-linearity?<br />There is the recent tendency to regard games as "interactive movies". I guess this is why RPGs have become more linear. Sadly, I think that the commercialization of video games will make them poorer. Replayability only hurts profits, because you have more fun with a single game. Linearity requires complexity and that makes it complicated.<br />I still remember Morrowind fondly. I was thrown into the game with no idea what to do, and the realization that I was the Nerevarine was grand. Yet I already loved the game before I realized that.<br />I wonder if the Mass Effect games are RPGs. Part 1, probably, Part 2 maybe, Part 3 hardly.Alexander Sebastian Schulzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15135338616598357444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-53787901300313307572013-06-08T06:56:01.688-04:002013-06-08T06:56:01.688-04:00The Exile Series by Spiderweb was my favorite on t...The Exile Series by Spiderweb was my favorite on the PC growing up due to this exact reason. I only ever had the shareware versions, but there was heaps to explore in those games, especially in Exile 3: Ruined World. I still remember using the Orb of Thralni just to see how much I can actually explore within the limitations of the sharevare.Nikola (Blogging Games)http://addictedgamewise.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-16120268406310986482013-04-16T19:40:28.315-04:002013-04-16T19:40:28.315-04:00This particular article made me recall a Youtube v...This particular article made me recall a Youtube vid that coined a word for designing in this kind of freedom: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwlt4FqmS0" rel="nofollow">The Shandification of Fallout</a>. TL;DR <i>Tristram Shandy</i> is the literary equivalent of a Wikipedia walk. Games are uniquely good at replicating this, immersing the player further. Making games cinematic misses the point. Fallout: New Vegas was better than Fallout 3 because it turned you loose in a living, breathing world rather than a setting.Colinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-46375387961716001562013-02-03T13:03:13.212-05:002013-02-03T13:03:13.212-05:00I think I learned with this blog entry why I like ...I think I learned with this blog entry why I like both crpg and jrpg. I can enjoy linear and non-linear game design because the most important aspect I look for is and will always be the story, or the gameworld. That's why I my most favoured (non P&P) rpg so far are Ultima IV+VII, Final Fantasy IV+VII, and recently Skyrim. And btw, saying Skyrim has no great story isn't true. It has almost hundreds of great little stories, that's what makes it special IMHO. And Tamriel is like a well crafted P&P fantasy world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29741649599471685532013-02-02T17:14:08.845-05:002013-02-02T17:14:08.845-05:00I agree that U4 would be high on the list if you g...I agree that U4 would be high on the list if you gave every game a score in these categories. You start in one of eight locations and you can do things in pretty much any order before hitting the end point at the Abyss. The dungeons are a little linear, but otherwise a great example.<br /><br />I was hoping more games than that had differences in the starting locations. Maybe we'll come across some more as I go through my list.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.com