tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post5092196296270727361..comments2024-03-19T01:35:47.501-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Secret of the Silver Blades: Here There Be (Weak) DragonsCRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-33150249438570341512015-09-30T14:57:12.562-04:002015-09-30T14:57:12.562-04:00"It's like he couldn't make up his mi..."It's like he couldn't make up his mind if he was pissed or genuinely impressed of his players."<br /><br />To be honest I think it breaks down like this.<br /><br />He spent years of his life playing/participating in large scale wargaming. That is, ultimately, a competitive endeavor and requires some sense of competitiveness to be exciting.<br /><br />Then he "invents" this game where instead of it being a direct "me vs you" it's more of a "I enable your adventure/good times, by properly rationing out appropriate portions of frustration and success."<br /><br />My hypothesis is that his competitive nature is part of the equation here. He *wanted* to beat his players from time to time. Especially since most of his hardcore players were his kids, or people young enough to be his children.<br /><br />It does also help to understand that Gygax was, essentially, jobless when he wrote and first published D&D. That tends to lead to feelings of inadequacy. Until 78 or 79 TSR was not successful enough to be a "real" job.....I'd have to assume that was a factor....old wow bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13219195579845781590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-61874720679598529252015-09-30T00:39:21.830-04:002015-09-30T00:39:21.830-04:00I think I've read something like that in some ...I think I've read something like that in some gaming magazines about Gygax's (God bless his soul) shenanigans as well (not Dungeons magazine or Dragon magazine but probably from Games Workshop or something) a long time back.<br /><br />Anyway, to a creative player, no odds are insurmountable. Even a party of level 1 characters can defeat a gigantic dragon with loads of preparation and exploitation of every single item they have & weaknesses that the monster have.<br /><br />The funny thing about the official magazines published by TSR were chock full of gaming examples specifically about such creative playing methods that actually happened in Gygax-ran tournaments.<br /><br />It's like he couldn't make up his mind if he was pissed or genuinely impressed of his players.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-55004655754428179932015-09-28T18:59:33.867-04:002015-09-28T18:59:33.867-04:00@ Canageek
My story isn't the official story ...@ Canageek<br /><br />My story isn't the official story at all. When you start REALLY digging into AD&D 1st edition's history and creation you see a few common threads emerge.<br /><br />1) Gygax spends a LOT of text in the DMG essentially complaining. Don't give characters too much stuff, don't let them get away with X, Y or Z. Don't this don't that. Drastic difference between this and the OD&D rules, or Basic rules, where they say "have fun, ignore the rules if you need to."<br /><br />2) These statements were made, most likely, because Gary had a few players that he appears to have had a bit of a hard time with. Because they consistently "beat" him. <br /><br />Rob Kuntz's Robilar character would walk through dungeons with magical items that rendered him both invisible, and silent. He was able to wholly avoid any random encounters, would always attack from ambush, and was easily able to bypass a majority of the challenges Gary threw at him.<br /><br />3) Kuntz, Ernie Gygax, Jim Ward and a few other players of Gygax have stated, on record, their experiences in clearing this dungeon. You can check Dragonsfoot for Rob Kuntz's recollection, but essentially Gary called him and informed him he had just completed a "killer dungeon". Specifically made for tournaments. Rob ran through it, Gary was disappointed that he made it through so easily. Anecdotes from Jim Ward and Ernie back that up as well. He hoped they'd fall there, they didn't.<br /><br />As a result, I'll still back up my statement, but it's not an official byline.<br /><br />It's more of a "I've studied this stuff extensively, and based on Gary's statements, his tone in the 1st edition DMG, and the statements of his players, it's clear to me he built this to try and kill his 'toughest' players."old wow bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13219195579845781590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1623018033125020322015-09-28T08:05:36.979-04:002015-09-28T08:05:36.979-04:00Yes - that's very true. Perhaps I need to reth...Yes - that's very true. Perhaps I need to rethink this. Thank you.JJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-60337234083771778532015-09-28T01:44:12.389-04:002015-09-28T01:44:12.389-04:00But... but... D&D was birthed from strategy wa...But... but... D&D was birthed from strategy war-games!Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-15119126883456539962015-09-26T19:57:48.071-04:002015-09-26T19:57:48.071-04:00I have noticed that. Secret is at 50, which is at ...I have noticed that. Secret is at 50, which is at least better than half the games you will ever play or have played. We all have things the attract us to one game over another. You like Pool the best. I knew someone else who thought that Gateway to the Savage Frontier was the top gold box entry. I think the problem of Gold Box quality is that it was never one person's brain child. It was part of an established company's stable, a company which specialized in war-games, not crpgs. Before Pool, I remember playing SSI's Shiloh on the Apple. Gary Gygax never worked for SSI. Maybe that was a good thing. I do not know. But as much as I love the Gold Box series, it does not have that loving attention you see in the Ultima series. Then again, that can bring in another set of problems. So in the end, I am happy with what I have: a cool D+D adventure that I can replay by changing difficulty or playing with different sets of characters, or imposing my own rules for role-playing reasons. I do this with other Gold Box games too. If Pool of Radiance had the Paladin and Ranger classes and Dual Classing, I would probably like it as much as Secret.JJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-54793767013929927742015-09-26T18:18:42.325-04:002015-09-26T18:18:42.325-04:00It's a decent game. My reviews of post-POR Gol...It's a decent game. My reviews of post-POR Gold Box games tend to sound a little negative, I guess, because they don't stack up to the original. But they still beat 90% of everything else out there. My top 10% is dominated by them.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-9812969239425165232015-09-23T13:36:17.848-04:002015-09-23T13:36:17.848-04:00I can say that not using the teleporters creates a...I can say that not using the teleporters creates a different set of circumstances. Frankly, I did not mind, since I was playing the tactical fights a bit different. By using less spells and more tactics and arrows, even random combats became more fun. Still, the teleport is handy, but I would have traded that in for a more interesting set of ruins. The mines are better with the option to talk to the monsters. I don't know why but I keep coming back to this one. I guess the setting sells, even if other things fall down. JJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1400102323672930752015-08-28T16:35:51.964-04:002015-08-28T16:35:51.964-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.old wow bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13219195579845781590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-61586349304039494972015-08-28T16:35:29.195-04:002015-08-28T16:35:29.195-04:00Let me know if you ever do. To be honest I do not ...Let me know if you ever do. To be honest I do not think it will make the game more enjoyable....just more annoying ;-).old wow bastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13219195579845781590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-54161305160010006452015-07-05T00:42:52.165-04:002015-07-05T00:42:52.165-04:00I loved going to conventions, doing the same adven...I loved going to conventions, doing the same adventure as everyone else, then comparing notes at the pub afterwards. Ah, Living Greyhawk, how I miss you. <br /><br />Yeah, Gygax would have considered changing something on his notes to be cheating. He also scaled his dungeons per level, so you wouldn't find giant dragons on level one, and it was up to the player to choose which level they adventured on (barring chutes and other traps.) He considered killing a few PC good, but preferred to do so in a 'fair' way, since he could aways just drop a giant dragon and kill them all. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-7188755316863520932015-07-05T00:28:02.014-04:002015-07-05T00:28:02.014-04:00I always prefer these modest "save a city&quo...<em>I always prefer these modest "save a city" quests to those where I have to stop someone from world domination. Of course, the former can easily turn into the latter, as we saw with Neverwinter Nights. Still, for now the main quest has something of the feeling of Pool of Radiance. </em><br /><br />I agree. Small plots usually work better then grandiose ones, and it avoids huge amounts of spiral in sequels. You saved the world? Now you have to um, save it again! vs the huge variety of small quests you can do. Firefly was a great example of small quests each episode. Sadly, as of late all games seem to think you need to save the world.Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68180532234277444842015-06-30T20:40:41.338-04:002015-06-30T20:40:41.338-04:00@Canageek
I've read similar type of explanati...@Canageek<br /><br />I've read similar type of explanation on original "Gods, Demigods and Heroes" supplement and Tomb of Horrors written as tournament module. <br /><br />@ Tournament gaming<br /><br />Eventhough competitive roleplaying might seem weird, it's predecessor for organized plays which especially Pathfinder thrives on - every con has at least handful of Pathfinder Society games going on. Difference is actually quite minimal, instead of rewarding good playng on some prizes your persistent character gets exp and perks to use on future organized play. <br /><br />As for competitive playing. itself, well look at eSports, but that certainly can't be credited to to neither trpg tournaments nor Gygax.<br /><br />@ "DM's wins when players die"<br /><br />I think this is somewhat out of context. You have to remember that Gygax had played wargames for years before David Arneson made first drafts of RPG rules, which Gygax modified (IIRC) and that attitude certainly showed through. <br /><br />You could roleplay pieces on chessboard all you want but the fellow on other side of the table is still out to get you, not to create compelling story. <br /><br />Frank Mentzer was guest of honor at one con I attended to some years ago, and according to his stories Gygax would certainly kill your character if you played dumb, but he would play strictly by rules, not by invoking some Uthmog Horizon-dimmener to rush down the corridor. <br /><br />But before I give too much credit on Gygax, reading his writings on early Dragon Magazines has given somehat petty image of him... in way of "You imbecile dare to give bad review to D&D?"Darielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-80109154615487987092015-06-30T07:29:08.598-04:002015-06-30T07:29:08.598-04:00I think the evidence speaks favourably of what it ...I think the evidence speaks favourably of what it was like to play with Gygax as DM: He was heavily in demand and his instruction manual on how to DM turned the game into a cultural phenomenon.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-38452345749941548922015-06-30T04:00:08.949-04:002015-06-30T04:00:08.949-04:00This isn't the story I heard about Tomb of Hor...This isn't the story I heard about Tomb of Horrors at all. The one I heard was that there were a lot of Monty Hall games going on, and people would write in to TSR complaining about a lack of adventures that would challenge their uberpcs. So Gygax, figuring that they'd not'earned' their PCs wrote an adventure in which your stats didn't matter much, since there was pretty much no combat.<br />Also: I've read about when Gygax would send PCs to the other side of the planet: he did it a couple of times. He viewed that as an excuse to run adventures for that player as they traveled home, not as a way of killing PCs.Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-34848498057057446222015-06-30T03:41:50.748-04:002015-06-30T03:41:50.748-04:00From age 11 through 14 I would RPG at lunch. As Qu...From age 11 through 14 I would RPG at lunch. As Quirkz mentions, RPGing doesn't involve much RPGing per unit time. It was mostly larking around with an occasional pause for a combat round. <br /><br />The character creation process would take weeks and the adventures, such as they were, would contain three encounters and the 'decisions' would be nothing more than following the DMs unsubtle prompting.<br />Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73837263737787567802015-06-30T03:07:54.669-04:002015-06-30T03:07:54.669-04:00I'd read any RPG related stuff I could get my ...I'd read any RPG related stuff I could get my hands on as a kid- adventures, settings, rulebooks, even when I was too young to understand the rules.Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73284247229174874132014-11-12T13:50:51.504-05:002014-11-12T13:50:51.504-05:00I fully intend to try to play this game without us...I fully intend to try to play this game without using the teleporter system. I do not know if my patience will hold, but I am hoping for a great time truly dungeon crawling. JJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-43572254990150365792014-09-29T04:58:46.112-04:002014-09-29T04:58:46.112-04:00Game Dev Tycoon, which came out a couple of years ...Game Dev Tycoon, which came out a couple of years ago from a tiny indie studio (two guys, as I recall), had an interesting 'copy protection'. The studio released a copy of the game on torrent sites that ran fine until about halfway through, whereupon your in-game software company would suddenly start losing money on every game until a chastising popup appeared saying that video game piracy had destroyed your studio.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08098875250377735658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-25041408046208962762014-09-23T15:39:40.266-04:002014-09-23T15:39:40.266-04:00I don't know about that one, but I always had ...I don't know about that one, but I always had trouble that way with Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. I finally traced the problem back to Windows' crappy "random" number generator that is really anything but. Playing it on Linux via Wine (or via the Linux build of it for NWN 1) makes the problem go away since it has access to an actually random RNG.tlhonmeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256644187305759072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31836675704095188382014-09-23T12:42:33.237-04:002014-09-23T12:42:33.237-04:00That is so almost painfully ironic :) Or at leas...That is so almost painfully ironic :) Or at least I do right now, because later I will begin to question myself to the point that I will no longer believe it is irony. Damned irony. So hard to define, use, and identify. Almost ironic how difficult.williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13165046805752023823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-81523857652138202442014-09-20T18:45:58.367-04:002014-09-20T18:45:58.367-04:00All these commenters are right that the old module...All these commenters are right that the old modules were carelessly organized without a shred of realism, and they were often run just the same way (especially by twelve-year-olds like Timmy, who lacked the necessary perspective).<br /><br />By contrast, the old Classic Traveller adventures (i.e. "modules", which was an idiotic name for one-shot setpieces) include some "sci-fi dungeons" that make a lot of sense as realistic ecosystems or plausible ruins. Those adventures were deliberately written so as to avoid most of the manifold failings of Gygaxian design, so they're something of a landmark in TRPG history (and still an outlier).<br /><br />@Noman: What you said (about modules as minimally-scripted guidelines) held true for good DMs, but Gygax was not one of them. He didn't believe in faking rolls or improvising or retconning; he ran his dungeons like a deist god, setting up a deterministic closed system and passively going through the encounters exactly as he'd written them. His modules weren't intended as general notes to riff from; he really was the mechanistic "roll to see if you cry" kind of DM.<br /><br />@Helm: I too was one of those gamers who originally got hooked on D&D rulebooks without having anyone else to play with (I was in elementary school). But I fixed that as soon as I could, just like you did.<br /><br />Also, roguelikes tend to be more interconnected, in spite of their D&D lineage. Monsters wander from room to room, hear assorted noises from across the level, cooperate in funny synergies (or not -- "Hmm, a roomful of mind flayers and cockatrices; time for my ring of conflict!"), etc.Gaguumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35899432045561971572014-09-20T17:54:54.137-04:002014-09-20T17:54:54.137-04:00@Quirkz: "It seems surprising to me that this...@Quirkz: "It seems surprising to me that this game could have been successfully founded by someone who held what in my opinion seems such a misguided idea."<br /><br />Story of my life, man. D&D had a thousand such misguided ideas, which leave any thoughtful gamer gobsmacked at Gygax's shamelessness, imbecility, and undeserved success. One marvels that D&D, instead of being consigned to the trash heap of history, has instead gone from strength to strength. Its unassailable dominance among TRPGs has to be attributed to infernal intervention.<br /><br />It goes without saying that a GM can gank his players like fish in a barrel whenever he wants, but this doesn't make for a good game in any sense. You're quite right about the way it should be run. So the way that I GM is a bit like the way that Go masters play against lower-ranked opponents: they handicap themselves by trying to win by the SMALLEST margin possible (which is not at all easy). Likewise, a GM should let his players win, but he should make it as hard as possible. They'll be justifiably prouder of their accomplishments, and they'll become better gamers.<br /><br />Of course, to do this, you need to know how they think, without their predicting what you'll do (Gygax sure failed that one), and then you have to carefully figure out what's within their ability. This isn't easy, but if you can do it, you're golden.Gaguumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-45614793631212261162014-09-20T08:45:52.145-04:002014-09-20T08:45:52.145-04:00One last addendum: I had a whole bunch of RPG book...One last addendum: I had a whole bunch of RPG books I never got to use, and even did the solo-dungeon generation bit in the back of the 1st ed DMG as well. The bizarre minutiae and flavor text were really quite entertaining--what's with the 'Nessus Shirt Company' on the cloak of poisonousness? (turned out to be a reference to Greek mythology) Null Nullnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-19653607647966874272014-09-20T08:43:32.328-04:002014-09-20T08:43:32.328-04:00OWB: Sure, no prob. My parents wouldn't let me...OWB: Sure, no prob. My parents wouldn't let me get a Nintendo (bad for schoolwork), but they'd buy me a game every so often, and after I fell in love with Champions of Krynn, well, the gold box is recognizable to parents in the store. Makes you realize how much effort goes into branding.<br /><br />Bottom line is I played every D&D Gold Box game multiple times, and I think the only other game I played was Dragon Wars. I had Bard's Tale but never got the save disk to work on my Apple II for some reason. So way too much of my late childhood/early adolescence was spent pondering the mysteries of why the 8th Level Fighters guarding Tyranthraxus had 87 hp, whereas the other fighters had about 6.5 per level, or why Yulash was before Zhentil Keep and Hap in the disk ordering.<br /><br />I only realized the teleporting-map thing after a discussion on the FRUA forums; before that I had simply assumed they copy-pasted. <br /><br />As for why they did it? Probably they wanted to make more of a mapping-oriented, 'real D&D' feel, as well as making bigger dungeons and hence a bigger world to explore. They wound up with bare-bones encounters, which made the game less interesting, but these are the sort of design tradeoffs that aren't really evaluable except in retrospect in many cases.Null Nullnoreply@blogger.com