tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post3413088687037297671..comments2024-03-28T04:44:28.648-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Guest Post: Why the Economy Sucks in the SSI Gold Box Games (Part 2)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-16756997238032265362024-03-07T23:18:46.360-05:002024-03-07T23:18:46.360-05:00Thank you for reminding me! Oddly even though I...Thank you for reminding me! Oddly even though I've played way more BG1 and BG1:EE then I ever did IWD, I still remember the IWD manual warning you about goblin battleaxes specifically. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-64197562998400186542024-03-07T13:53:05.300-05:002024-03-07T13:53:05.300-05:00I was curious about this, and turns out you're...I was curious about this, and turns out you're almost exactly correct -- at least in BG2, each item you sell reduces the value of future sales by 1/6, down to a floor of 4/6 of the base price (most vendors start out buying at the base price, but apparently there are a few that start out at like 8/6). Gems and jewelry aren't subject to depreciation though.<br /><br />More on topic, I've actually been playing some Unlimited Adventures modules recently, and it's notable that these user-made scenarios tend to have *even fewer* money sinks than the official SSI games while generally retaining the giant money hauls to keep the XP progression moving.tetrapodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04736532124472617151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-74226442232024500522024-03-07T13:35:10.126-05:002024-03-07T13:35:10.126-05:00I think Baldur's Gate did that, too, but in a ...I think <i>Baldur's Gate</i> did that, too, but in a very brutish way. It was something like they just halved the sale value once you sold two of anything.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-47591938733460485782024-02-21T19:15:45.980-05:002024-02-21T19:15:45.980-05:00As I recall from many years ago, Icewind Dale decr...As I recall from many years ago, Icewind Dale decreases the value of things the more of them you sell. Which was really annoying if you didn't want to spend a bunch of time making sure every gem of the same type was on the same character before you went to sell them. <br /><br />Also: What the heck. I'm logged in here on my laptop after years away and can post just fine. Whereas on my desktop, with all the same Firefox extensions I have to copy the URL over to chrome each time and post from there. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-20655979241240143162023-12-05T12:31:43.538-05:002023-12-05T12:31:43.538-05:00I'm brought to mind of Shenmue 3, a game which...I'm brought to mind of Shenmue 3, a game which has a substantial "Grind for money" mechanic where your character literally has to go out and get day jobs completely unrelated to the main plot purely to earn not just money for plot-related expenses, but just plain old room and board.<br />A loophole was discovered whereby a series of optimized trades at the second-hand stores could leave the player flush with cash. It didn't exactly make grinding for money trivial - you still needed to haul goods back and forth one inventory-load at a time - but you no longer had to quadruple the length of the game (a game with a generous but real time limit) because you were devoting 8 hours of every in-game day to the box-stacking minigame. <br />The developers promptly patched out the economic imbalance that let you make significant amounts of money by selling used books. They did not like the idea of anyone completing the game without spending months as a day-laborer.Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09703211229982182936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68889745421418936432023-11-29T00:53:43.968-05:002023-11-29T00:53:43.968-05:00Fallout: Tactics features economically-minded shop...Fallout: Tactics features economically-minded shopkeepers. If they have no M16s, they'll buy them at full price. If they already have 10 in stock, they might pay you half-price. You'll get barely more for selling 50 than you would for selling 25.<br /><br />In general, I think there are some concessions to economic realities that CRPGs can acknowledge, they just have to be careful of creating too much busywork. It's no different from considerations relating to inventory. You can have realistic weight and volume limits, which will increase immersion, but it might not be much fun. I think the typical middle ground of 'wildly inaccurate but not infinite' backpack space is probably fine.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-65995257485833691802023-11-28T20:47:00.334-05:002023-11-28T20:47:00.334-05:00This is a great take for a longer article. Bethesd...This is a great take for a longer article. Bethesda games in general seem to attempt to model some of the complexities of economies by giving shopkeepers fixed amounts of money; if you want them to have more for regular purchases, you have to invest in their shops. I'd like to see more complexities of this nature, such as items losing value the more of them enter circulation.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-66038431413659778342023-11-28T12:55:46.339-05:002023-11-28T12:55:46.339-05:00One conspicuous problems with CRPGs generally is t...One conspicuous problems with CRPGs generally is that they ignore the fact that economies outside of the players' own possessions exist.<br />Like, suppose I go out into the ruins of Old Verdigis, beat up a few Black Circle encounters, and come back to the New Verdigris Armoury with 20 or so Bracers AC 6. The proprieter of this "rather barren" shop will cheerfully take them off my hands for 6000GP apiece, a transaction that raises a lot of questions. Where is all of this money coming from, in the depressed economy of a monster-beset mining town? What benefit will the shop owner derive from these insanely expensive and high-prestige items? They don't even try to ever sell them back to me, and it's unlikely someone else with more than 6000GP is going to come along and buy them at a markup later on (besides, anyone else who has 6000GP in walking-around money can probably go out to the ruins of Old Verdigris and beat up their own Black Circle mages, if they want some).<br /><br />To the extent problems like this arise in either live-DM games or the real world, they're resolved by making it essentially impossible to liquidate high-value items unless you are in an area where the local economy could reasonably absorb them. Like, if I walk into a real-world economically depressed small town shop trying to sell an original Faberge egg (or item of comparable value and rarity), I will meet with either (a) a flat refusal to buy it at all, or (b) an offer which is several orders of magnitude below a reasonably acceptable price.<br /><br />Historically, the disparity between apparent local economy and shop resources is most hilariously skewed in JRPGs, where the protagonists often move from a prologue in a thriving city with inexplicably low-level gear to a late game in hinterlants with crazy-powerful weapons for sale. It makes absolutely no economic sense that in the big city your choices of purchases are all sub-100GP mundane weapons, and that in the monster-beset postapocalyptic bivouaced community you can buy your fill of million-GP legendary gear, but that's basically a stereotypicial progression of JRPG towns.<br /><br />The one game I know that does this right is Nethack, where shopkeepers will buy all sorts of stuff off of you, but when they run out of gold, they offer you store credit instead, which is nontransferable to other shops and makes about as much sense as anything else does as a shopkeeper's response to you trying to sell more stuff to them than they can reasonably take.Jake Wildstromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01344915280635768427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-39220470933983695422019-09-09T12:08:52.707-04:002019-09-09T12:08:52.707-04:00This two part post was excellent and insightful. ...This two part post was excellent and insightful. It explains a lot about how boring the economy became after you got your part about a tenth of the way through the game. I would just leave loads and loads of treasure behind.<br /><br />I didn't know the original rules had items make saving throws against a fireball spell. Personally, I think this would have been a perfect addition to the Gold Box system, since a computer could handle the rule minutiae of performing all the saving throws for all those items the enemy possessed. This could have prevented a lot of fireball spamming in conjunction with the addition of more economy rule tightening suggestions that CRPGAddict mentions. I know I would probably have given more care consideration about using a fireball during certain combats that I thought might have contained some juicy loot. Of course, sometimes it wouldn't matter as much because some encounters you don't care about or some big encounters had a "treasure" cache located after the battle.<br /><br />Also, if amount of treasure is kept the same in the GB series, I really think I would have enjoyed the aspect of adding the ability to own land and manage dumping treasure into maintaining a stronghold with followers. I know that might have detracted from the adventure side of the RPG, but it would have been fun to incorporate this into the series somehow. It would have been cool to see your treasure turn into an army that could have gone up against the big bad or help distract the big bad's army for you to go in and finish them off like the ending of PoR and CoAtB.BoardGameNuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03573162816708652568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-52608441240564632162017-08-25T12:05:44.290-04:002017-08-25T12:05:44.290-04:00Don't be so harsh, Gnoman. It's not "...Don't be so harsh, Gnoman. It's not "nonsense." This argument has been made before, and some what accurately, for the Gold Box games. The problem is, it's an explanation, not an excuse. There's no reason that SSI had to tie experience points to treasure. There's no reason they couldn't have implemented "quest xp" earlier in the series' life cycle, or just increased the xp given by higher-level monsters without regard to how much treasure they carried.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-88915243994698882582017-08-23T23:21:55.625-04:002017-08-23T23:21:55.625-04:00That, I am afraid, is nonsense.
Yes, a CRPG does...That, I am afraid, is nonsense. <br /><br />Yes, a CRPG does tend to be a lot shorter in real-time terms than a tabletop campaign, this is primarily because play goes far faster. A combat in many TTRPGS that could easily take an hour to complete will take ten minutes or less in a CRPG. Even the most dialog heavy CRPG will take nowhere near as long for a conversation as a TTRPG game where half a dozen players try to figure out what questions to ask and what answers to give.<br /><br />A ~50 hour CRPG is effectively identical in scope to months or even years of TTRPG campaigning. Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12786253058442925852017-08-23T17:58:09.819-04:002017-08-23T17:58:09.819-04:00A late comment, but relevant I think. A CRPG has t...A late comment, but relevant I think. A CRPG has to give significant progress in 50 or so hours, compared to weeks or months for a "live" campaign. Excessive amounts of treasure is the only way to give enough xp to advance in such a short time and keep within the letter of the rules. Later games gave "quest xp", probably in an attempt to fix this somewhat. Tarlokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08134006775641744223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-10730531595581327302017-02-12T21:02:11.934-05:002017-02-12T21:02:11.934-05:00That's fine if you're not interested in th...That's fine if you're not interested in that aspect of gameplay, but some of us find the "resource management" aspect of RPGs fun, and that's conveyed primarily through the game's economy. Role-playing is a system of making decisions, and when you give players so much gold that they can buy anything in the game, whenever they want to buy it, you're taking away the opportunity for a set of decisions.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-16343831063475294212017-02-12T16:39:59.606-05:002017-02-12T16:39:59.606-05:00D&D is high fantasy. I think it's a stylis...D&D is high fantasy. I think it's a stylistic, valid choice to hand our far more gold and jewels than the players can ever conceivably use. They're part of the scenery, like farmers and merchants and bazaars. Truly valuable things cannot be bought, they have to be fought hard for as per genre conventions. Money could just as well be simplified completely out of the game. If you want to invoke the feel of high fantasy, concentrate on the fantastic. Money is mundane. <br /><br />Lord of the Rings is the definitive high fantasy work. Wouldn't you think it in bad taste if hobbits went to barter away their mithril mails for gold? What use did Gandalf have for gold? Not to mention that everyone who covets the ring and doesn't resist its siren call is destroyed. <br /><br />The Gold Box games got this right, even if it was accidental. Wealth is not the motivating factor in the quest to reveal the mysteries of Forgotten Realms. Instead it is adventure for adventures sake. Doing the right things because they are the right things. I say this is part of the charm of the setting. It's not a flaw, it elevates the experience beyond almost all other games of the era. <br /><br />Jannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12326360998937158736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-45019290077215434472016-10-21T18:18:09.389-04:002016-10-21T18:18:09.389-04:00It really depends on the tone of the game as well....It really depends on the tone of the game as well. Having lots of henchmen and hirelings goes well with a DM who's difficulty rating is calibrated to "an average of 1 PC death per session".tlhonmeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256644187305759072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-17261985370411926442016-10-18T20:58:31.434-04:002016-10-18T20:58:31.434-04:00Having your town occupied by an evil overlord, who...Having your town occupied by an evil overlord, who decided to build his very own dungeon in it, is like getting selected to host the Olympics.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-48338965463876601582016-10-18T05:36:02.860-04:002016-10-18T05:36:02.860-04:00"I spent it all on whiskey and whores!" ..."I spent it all on whiskey and whores!" - No. 1 most used reason.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-22100040500429988292016-10-18T05:34:29.514-04:002016-10-18T05:34:29.514-04:00Me and my gaming mates tried D&D in our teens ...Me and my gaming mates tried D&D in our teens when it came out.<br /><br />After a few games, I decided to make an RPG system myself. Because, it seems like we've been doing it all the time in a D&D game anyway.Kenny McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01553499727945099493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-66726472697231180232016-10-07T14:56:36.096-04:002016-10-07T14:56:36.096-04:00One of the major balancing factors in Gygax's ...One of the major balancing factors in Gygax's games, at least to hear him tell it in the pages of Dragon Magazine, was encumbrance. You could only carry a realistic amount, so if you found an entire chest of coins, it was hard getting it back to town. Experienced parties learned to take the time to sort out the valuable gold and platinum and leave the silver and copper coins, but doing so would trigger a random monster roll. Also, treasure didn't stay around: If you left treasure you found, another monster would take it. If you lug a ton of heavy stuff back slowly, that makes more noise and again, more random monster rolls (which are unlikely to have treasure themselves.) Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-16371378975242242442016-10-07T14:19:41.156-04:002016-10-07T14:19:41.156-04:00I like what they have done in Fallout 4, where mos...I like what they have done in Fallout 4, where most of the stuff I collect and COULD sell for money is better stashed in various settlements and used to build things. I never know when a new upgrade I unlock will need nuclear material, or if I'll have enough oil to build the turret array I want in my new settlement. Canageekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03770924810559440307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-14926109159042757982016-10-06T21:58:01.805-04:002016-10-06T21:58:01.805-04:00I'm an old hand at BECMI D&D and AD&D ...I'm an old hand at BECMI D&D and AD&D 1st edition, so although a lot of this was familiar to me, I still enjoyed reading this well done article immensely. Becoming name level (9th/10th) and setting up a thieves guild/keep/tower/church along with rules for followers and gaining noble titles can be a lot of fun.Deuce Travelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-68881247143074208062016-10-02T17:05:18.324-04:002016-10-02T17:05:18.324-04:00You can also have them fight drow with their self-...You can also have them fight drow with their self-destructing / temporary magical weaponry. Wands with low numbers of charges are good too. But players complain about it, a lot, if over-used.Bluerazorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417137714916057380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12313121299669066422016-10-02T16:53:03.718-04:002016-10-02T16:53:03.718-04:00In the Baldur's Gate games, finding an enemy p...In the Baldur's Gate games, finding an enemy party is exciting for exactly that reason, but unless it's done really judiciously, you'll end up with the problems you point out.<br /><br />I don't think you need to give players the enemy's tools every time. Yes, it's less realistic, but it is really difficult to sustain if you have a lot of weapon wielding combatants - and it makes players return back to stores 5 times during a quest to sell all the valuables.Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-62737569632017007002016-10-01T15:51:38.695-04:002016-10-01T15:51:38.695-04:00There is a fundamental game balance problem betwee...There is a fundamental game balance problem between realistic simulation and reasonable economics. You want to give a reasonable challenge to a player who has fought 20 battles and acquired a few magical items. If that player only has a few opponents in a battle, they will have to be similarly equipped to the player to be challenging. So far, so good, but...<br /><br />Let's say you've balanced the players' 2 or 3 magic items each with 1 or 2 better magic items on each enemy. The players win. You didn't destroy most of the magical equipment because magic item destruction isn't fun for players. So now everybody has an upgrade or two. After another 20 battles, the players are equipped well enough to fight demigods.<br /><br />In "real life", a champion might fight 2 or 3 duels, and might participate in 5 significant battles. In a D&D game, we compress that experience. Players fight far more battles, and gain experience and treasure from most of them. Over an adventuring lifetime, a hero could end up weighed down like the white knight in Through the Lookin Glass.<br />Corey Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16772474266362396768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-28932411216790489412016-10-01T15:44:36.984-04:002016-10-01T15:44:36.984-04:00I completely agree that many modern games overload...I completely agree that many modern games overload on loot. It becomes overwhelming, particularly when you come into the game hard-wired with an old-school mentality that you have to pick up every magical item. My main house in Skyrim was a veritable hoarder's paradise, with hundreds of items I would never end up using (I encourage you to watch the parody youtube videos if you haven't done so yet).<br /><br />I would much prefer if Bethesda handed out one tenth or one twentieth the items it does and just focused on making the items interesting. Spare me the "increase frost resistance by 5%" potions and just make something useful and unique (I know, easier said than done). A game I'm playing now that does this very well is Lords of Xulima. Recommended for the old farts.Posidoniusnoreply@blogger.com