tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post2137903378900983961..comments2024-03-28T15:25:30.216-04:00Comments on The CRPG Addict: Game 240: Phantasie II (1986)CRPG Addicthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-36304112808619301962017-07-18T18:30:07.567-04:002017-07-18T18:30:07.567-04:00I would argue that Pippacott in P2 on the ST is a ...I would argue that Pippacott in P2 on the ST is a lot better looking than that image (seems to be from Amiga P1) and the DOS/C64/A8 analogs.<br /><br />http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/45047-phantasie-ii-atari-st-screenshot-starting-inside-the-town-pippacott.gifJerri Kohlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11032635160554411458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-86513146923219774162017-02-09T18:58:28.242-05:002017-02-09T18:58:28.242-05:00David Ainsworth, the pedant in me compels me to po...David Ainsworth, the pedant in me compels me to point out that while the cap is indeed 65,535, that's not necessarily different than 64K, depending on what K stands for. At the time, it was always *called* kilobyte, but usually *meant* kebibyte[1] (because kebibyte didn't exist as a standard name yet), and a kebibyte is 1024, not 1000. 64 kebibytes is indeed 65,536 values, and this is also where the 64 in Commodore 64 comes from, and why it isn't the Commodore 65.<br /><br />Now, the reason why the number was limited to 64k (what can be represented by 16 bits or two bytes of data) is a bit more complex, and has quite a bit to do with the hardware of the platform. The processor used in the Commodore 64 was an 8-bit processor, meaning it could operate on single bytes at a time (load one byte from memory to one register, load another byte from memory to another register, run an operation to add, subtract or multiple those bytes, using special flags to track if it overflowed the 256 values a single byte can represent). Software and hardware tricks were developed to deal with this limitation and allow larger values to be tracked, but it gets much more complex with each extra byte of data you track.[2]<br /><br /> 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibibyte<br /><br /> 2: David Ainsworth, the pedant in me compels me to point out that while the cap is indeed 65,535, that's not necessarily different than 64K, depending on what K stands for. At the time, it was always *called* kilobyte, but usually *meant* kebibyte[1] (because kebibyte didn't exist as a standard name yet), and a kebibyte is 1024, not 1000. 64 kebibytes is indeed 65,536 values, and this is also where the 64 in Commodore 64 comes from, and why it isn't the Commodore 65.<br /><br />Now, the reason why the number was limited to 64k (what can be represented by 16 bits or two bytes of data) is a bit more complex, and has quite a bit to do with the hardware of the platform. The processor used in the Commodore 64 was an 8-bit processor, meaning it could operate on single bytes at a time (load one byte from memory to one register, load another byte from memory to another register, run an operation to add, subtract or multiple those bytes, using special flags to track if it overflowed the 256 values a single byte can represent).<br /><br />In more recent times, we see this when programmers choose to use a smaller data type than strictly requires to represent something, such as using a single byte for a number that then ends up overflowing that type when it hits 256. In most these cases, the programmer could have chosen a 16-bit (2-byte, 64k values) or 32-bit (4-byte, over 4 billion values) type to store that number. But in this case, remember that the CPU in the Commodore doesn't even support those types, to use them you have to *approximate* them using multiple smaller 8-bit types and routines to allow you to function then at the cost of being much slower (many CPU operations per math operation) and somewhat more complex.<br /><br />It's actually pretty amazing what programmers of that time period had to deal with in regard to constraints. Interestingly, there's a rich history of people actually eking out successively better graphics out of the Commodore 64[3], and the demo scene is still active, where people see just what they can do. For an example, see this[4], which is audio and video recorded from a real Commodore 64 in 2016, and imagine what it would have been like to see that in the mid 1980's...<br /><br /> 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibibyte<br /><br /> 2: http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:6502_6510_maths<br /><br /> 3: http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm<br /><br /> 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0FwiHstrhQ&t=92Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14874291376019276497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-67687074988949466432017-01-24T13:28:17.490-05:002017-01-24T13:28:17.490-05:00There appears to be a Mac version of the game. If ...There appears to be a Mac version of the game. If all else fails, it might be worthwhile to try doing that. Otherwise, you could always be content reading about Steve the Avatar.Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-12523560910709166082017-01-24T13:00:13.425-05:002017-01-24T13:00:13.425-05:00No, I just figured I'd...I don't know...tr...No, I just figured I'd...I don't know...try again. I'll avoid saving as long as possible and see how it goes. There might have been suggestions from readers that I didn't try--I have to go back and review those threads.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-70333576448066357172017-01-23T17:58:54.906-05:002017-01-23T17:58:54.906-05:00Did you manage to work out the crashing/saving iss...Did you manage to work out the crashing/saving issue in Martian Dreams? I never encountered it and made it farther than you did, but I got stuck and later bored of the game and didn't go back to it. I might pick it back up if you are playing it. Joe Pranevichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12997014242774219758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31400948108570150612017-01-23T15:25:36.194-05:002017-01-23T15:25:36.194-05:00In the early versions of D&D, XP gain came pri...In the early versions of D&D, XP gain came primarily from hauling treasure back to town, and the experience requirements per level were class specific.tlhonmeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256644187305759072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-73024274237385912422017-01-23T15:21:22.929-05:002017-01-23T15:21:22.929-05:00They also might not have had enough space. There ...They also might not have had enough space. There are, after all, lots of other things to keep track of.tlhonmeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256644187305759072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-35460470430526812352017-01-23T15:11:05.876-05:002017-01-23T15:11:05.876-05:00When replaying the C64 version of the phantasie ga...When replaying the C64 version of the phantasie games I started to keep distinct copies of the dungeon disk for each visited dungeon. This way I didn't loose the individual progress.<br /><br />A party setup of 2 fighters, 2 priests, 1 thief & 1 wizard is indeed slightly better than a setup with one of each class. Better melee options (fighter->lunge) and two healers that also learn some basic offensive spells (spells 5-8).<br /><br />On the other hand monks are somewhat useful as backup melee/ trapsmith and they get the summoning spell earliest. If that is better than<br />the thief's attack an nemy from any rank is debateable.<br /><br />Despite only 6 classes there are quite a few alternative party setups possible. Equipment usage is only tied to a character's strength score.<br /><br />I remember that in Phantasie I it was easier to enter a certain temple with a minotaur in your party. The other demihuman races added some diversity. Training wasn't that expensive if the<br />charisma score wasn't too low. But in the later game stages money would be less of an issue.<br /><br />With a hex editor an "all monster party" is possible. Lifespans are an issue for most races, excepted for elves, dwarves and gnomes.<br />deuxaneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17282495902189123067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-75707887437170471112017-01-23T14:37:54.969-05:002017-01-23T14:37:54.969-05:00In a CRPG, with the more limited (usually) options...In a CRPG, with the more limited (usually) options available, the two systems are generally interchangeable. In tabletop play, where you can do whatever you want, they have different goals and both are useful, particularly since in tabletop D&D (all versions) you don't get XP just from killing monsters - you get it for dealing with them. To use an analogy from a game you've played (and I'm playing at the moment) in Might and Magic II you have the option to Fight, Bribe, Hide, or run away from each encounter. In tabletop, the XP reward from doing any of the first 3 successfully would be (if playing by RAW) identical.Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-28178161382140012022017-01-23T14:31:08.487-05:002017-01-23T14:31:08.487-05:00Of course they're basically the same mathemati...Of course they're basically the same mathematically. What I like about the way Tactics Ogre handles it, is that keeping track of all your characters progress is very simple. Not that it's very difficult in most non-ancient CRPGs anyway and seeing huge amounts of XP pile up can be satisfying in itself I suppose.Commentmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29262295031075944112017-01-23T12:51:05.572-05:002017-01-23T12:51:05.572-05:00My point is that whether you blunt the rewards of ...My point is that whether you blunt the rewards of a Level 6 character killing an orc by rewarding less "differential experience" or whether you blunt it by doubling the number of experience points needed to get from Level 6 to Level 7, mathematically the orc ends up being worth about the same amount. The former system just adds some extra calculations to the system.<br /><br /><i>Icewind Dale</i> used AD&D2 rules; <i>Icewind Dale II</i> used AD&D3 rules. In neither game did I feel that the party leveled particularly faster or slower than the other. I can't say what happens in tabletop sessions.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-1985098262912134892017-01-23T12:49:29.984-05:002017-01-23T12:49:29.984-05:00I *think* that in cRPG, because machine has no qua...I *think* that in cRPG, because machine has no qualms about borimg accounting job, it would be besr to award xp for each successfully performed action, so casting a spell, attacking, using a skill, even fleeing. This way you would naturally get less xp for weak foes, since if it's over in single blow, you are awarded for example 2 xp. Of course you could cheat the way you can do it in e.g. Oblivion, where you can create, and I did, spells like "Fire Trainer", hitting for single point of damage - it is of course boring, but so is grinding in general.Mag Wielki i Szelkihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01807838665939928892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-84559505355429291132017-01-23T12:41:48.462-05:002017-01-23T12:41:48.462-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-72214412815827123052017-01-23T11:42:50.049-05:002017-01-23T11:42:50.049-05:00Giving no XP for beating up underleveled enemies, ...Giving no XP for beating up underleveled enemies, or make them run away, is a much more elegant design that caps. Although, in AD&D games level caps can be explained by lack of trainerss in the party's area.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-24683846355006080652017-01-23T10:52:10.308-05:002017-01-23T10:52:10.308-05:00It's in the aurora engine games - NWN and KOTO...It's in the aurora engine games - NWN and KOTOR. The first NWN buffs some classes (by adjusting xp gains) to make them get through the earlier levels more quickly - they thought cleric was underpowered for instance...<br /><br />I think 1st Ed D&D still had caveats like: 'Don't give a 6th level party any xp for beating up 4 orcs'Tristan Gallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16769219573533545742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-43908583721307876742017-01-23T08:22:19.125-05:002017-01-23T08:22:19.125-05:00It is quite trivial to realize 32-bit addition and...It is quite trivial to realize 32-bit addition and subtraction on 8-bit computers, and basic branching. I think the devs just didn't want to bother with it.feamatarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14813811539434268297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-74461840538895276292017-01-23T06:13:26.352-05:002017-01-23T06:13:26.352-05:00I suppose reason for this is pretty trivial, proba...I suppose reason for this is pretty trivial, probably lack of resources (i.e. RAM) and design decisions (all values have same size). It would be good to know how frequently this happens, if it needs grinding for few hours in game's last area, then *MAYBE* it's not as bad as level caps...Mag Wielki i Szelkihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01807838665939928892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-27465008553745373052017-01-23T06:08:18.382-05:002017-01-23T06:08:18.382-05:00In that case it's very bad design IMO. It just...In that case it's very bad design IMO. It just means you need to go back to town more often if you don't want to lose any XP, which in turn results in more XP from random encounters, which in turn means more total XP, which in turns means that the design is counter productive. And we've gone full circle back to in that case it's very bad design IMO.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-29681263733582474782017-01-23T05:22:35.634-05:002017-01-23T05:22:35.634-05:00AFAIU there is no overflow, xp/gold is simply capp...AFAIU there is no overflow, xp/gold is simply capped, so overflow is checked for - so no bugs, only features here.Mag Wielki i Szelkihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01807838665939928892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-2170501096883541642017-01-23T05:15:38.916-05:002017-01-23T05:15:38.916-05:00I don't have any second-edition rulebooks hand...I don't have any second-edition rulebooks handy to check how things were handled in that system, but in 3.0E D&D and (IIRC) onward there was both "the amount of experience needed per level increases every level" and "the amount of experience you get scales with difficulty" were in effect. The purpose of the former was to allow characters behind on XP (due to permanent level loss, XP spent on crafting or by a spell, spending three years as a lawn ornament, etc), while the latter has the purpose of allowing you to adjust risk/reward within a given level range (situations that are trivial or overwhelmingly difficult give no experience, as either they are too simple to teach you, or else the only way to succeed is to "cheat" in some way, which only teaches you how to cheat.<br /><br />From what I recall, this didn't make it into the computer versions for simplicity's sake.Gnomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920812227941556716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-31496390045380397272017-01-23T01:50:19.262-05:002017-01-23T01:50:19.262-05:00Usually an integer overflow in a program is consid...Usually an integer overflow in a program is considered a bug. I don't see why P2 whould be an exception.PetrusOctavianusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-32625510947508362712017-01-22T23:37:45.296-05:002017-01-22T23:37:45.296-05:00Yeah, I saw that I'd used Trebuchet in some ea...Yeah, I saw that I'd used Trebuchet in some earlier postings and liked the look of it.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-75605398607270071012017-01-22T23:36:25.316-05:002017-01-22T23:36:25.316-05:00My feeling about the interface is there should nev...My feeling about the interface is there should never have to be a choice between the joystick and the keyboard. Good games (e.g., Gold Box) have redundant controls that allow the user to play according to his preference.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-6455510412103043982017-01-22T23:35:20.689-05:002017-01-22T23:35:20.689-05:00To me, that kind of system only makes sense if the...To me, that kind of system only makes sense if the number of experience points needed to level don't increase significantly between levels. In games like <i>Phantasie</i> and most <i>D&D</i> games through the second edition, the differential in levels is in place in effect, since the experience points gained from killing, say, an kobold don't mean as much to a Level 4 character as a Level 1 character.<br /><br />Anyway, I don't see this mechanism as an alternative to what <i>Phantasie</i> does with dividing experience. You could have an experience differential and still choose to allot it unequally among characters.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6162314467762792782.post-54022272556489489692017-01-22T23:32:32.024-05:002017-01-22T23:32:32.024-05:00Well, I'm afraid I don't agree. It's c...Well, I'm afraid I don't agree. It's certainly more colorful, but it also looks more cartoonish than the PC version. Between color and graphic detail, I'll always favor the latter, but of course I can't see a lot of colors.CRPG Addicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238237377918550322noreply@blogger.com